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Cliqmo

Cliqmo

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Hiya,

I've posted previously about our 22mth old vizsla Inala and the new addition to the family 21mth old vizzy Ruby, who we got a couple of months ago. The pair of them get along great and have settled beautifully into a manageable routine- although I have nicknamed them Chase and Wrestle as it's what they spend 90% of their time doing
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We are having a few little hiccups though and I would like some vizzy/general dog expert advice please
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Inala has always been incredibly bold but since getting Ruby, who settled immediately into the submissive lower rank, she has become much more dominant and considerably less obedient. Most worryingly she now seems to approach other dogs she meets on walks very assertively (and once or twice now she has also snapped at them, which she has never done before!
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) Is this alpha female behaviour here to stay?

Ruby is the chalk to Nali's cheese (so to speak!) as she is quite timid and inclined to be submissive, staying close to us if other dogs come to play. Her worrying behaviour is that although she is perfect 98% of the time, she is proving to be a bit unrealiable with her temper, as she will sometimes snap and has actually bitten- and drawn blood- 3 times (my OH twice and my 20yr old brother last night). She seems to get really possessive about an item (could as diverse as a pen lid she just stole, to my OHs jacket, to the door to the boot room containing my Parent's pet rabbit -who was shut in for his own safety
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) Is this behaviour curable? I suspect it is the real reason she was looking for a new home as the previous owners had toddlers
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Any CC/advice/reprimands/suggestions etc welcome
 
It sounds like Ruby is a fear biter. She sounds more like an insecure dog, unsure of her place, than a dog that's okay with being submissive and laid-back. As far as toy and object possessiveness, does she know "leave it" as a command? Does she only act that way in front of your other dog?

I would be inclined to go the positive training route in this instance, as reprimanding her strongly--physically, especially--will only make her fear biting worse. If I were you, I'd get in touch with a trainer asap.
 
How do you react to these situations?

What do you do when she behaves like this with other dogs?

What have you done when she has bitten people?

I really, really wouldn't tolerate her biting people, she is lucky to have gotten away with it three times
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Think you might have to bring a behaviourist in.
 
She's challenging you by not giving back what she has so she needs to be retaught where she is in the pecking order of the family.

Nip it in the bud, you have to teach her that you are above her and what you say goes.

My boys are just coming up to one year old and if they get out of hand I physically dominate them by pushing them onto their backs and holding them down on the floor, crouched over them, I hold them there for a while until I feel the've accepted their place - its what a top dog would do and your dog needs to understand this, you are top dog and it does what YOU say without question.

Only do what I do if you think it's safe to do it. It CAN be resolved, just make sure you get lots of ideas before you try anything. You need to go back to basics, somehow its learnt its better than humans. No more food off your plate, no more getting on sofas, bed or anything that is your domain......

I also do he domination if my sisters dogs are here and my boys throw themselves about and bully them, I do it to them and they then play with the dogs and respect that fighting them get me, the top dog involved.

Only do what I do if you think it's safe to do it. It CAN be resolved, just make sure you get lots of ideas before you try anything.
 
I would be careful with scruffing and rolls...I would only do this with on the spot guidance, it really only suits a certain type of dog and can result in more problems if not carried out properly, sorry, just my opinion.

With the other dog, I think this may be a fear or possession thing rather than a dominance thing and I certainly wouldn't try dominance rolls.

I do agree with certain points of your posts, though, and agree that some dogs, when allowed on the furniture, see this as elevation to equal or higher status than their owners.


I am not a fluffy bunny and am the owner of a very arsey male who is constantly trying to reassert his dominance, but dominance rolls are a tricky business and I have only ever done it once, to stop him getting flattened by a scrambler/him pulling the rider off said scrambler.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Ruby is the chalk to Nali's cheese (so to speak!) as she is quite timid and inclined to be submissive, staying close to us if other dogs come to play. Her worrying behaviour is that although she is perfect 98% of the time, she is proving to be a bit unrealiable with her temper.....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the same thing, somehow you have put her in charge and she worries that she has to be in charge and protect you. Its similar to when an owner leaves their dog at home and goes out, the dog will create and get really upset and destroy things, its basically saying " oh no, my companion has left me and I can't protect her if Im not with her " and gets distressed.

You have got to get back in charge and be the pack leader, you MUST dominate, take charge and releive her of the pressure of thinking she has to protect you. Coming to you when other dogs isn't shyness - its her as pack leader protecting her family.

Look for guidance on the ne about being pack leader. Dogs must understand that you are in charge.

It might be worth walking her on her own, have one-to-one sessions with her with commands. Little treats when she does as she's told. I done this with my boys so they understood ME and concentrated on ME. It's very important to bond and set the pack boundaries.
 
Agree CC, you MUST be sure the dog is safe before you attempt any dominance by rolling. I would definately go back to basics on a 1-2-1 basis with her if you can - it really will help both of you
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I would get a beahviourist in, they can observe what is going on and give you much more tailored advice than anyone can from an internet description, with all respect to the considerable experience on here. It's all necessarily secondhand information whereas an on-the-spot behaviourist will be able to see exactly what is going on.

A friend of mine has been having problems with her dog going bonkers when other dogs came into view, she had a behaviourist session and the difference has been amazing. She is using clicker training - now Henry and I can walk past without her turning a hair.

As Henry is a Dogs Trust dog, I have access to their behaviourists - you could always call the local centre and see who they use for a recommendation?

Rolls etc are tricky - my old dog accepted them fine but Henry is too sensitive for them - again a reason that I would be inclined to seek professional advice in this case as they should tailor their approach to the dog.
 
The new dog has come into a family where the human isn't the pack leader. She's being told what to do by both the human and the 1st dog and she's confused who is in charge.

Play dominant over the 1st dog and do 1-2-1 basics with the newbie AWAY from the 1st dog.

If newbie sees 1st dog get scruffed a couple of times by human, she'll think "oh, maybe she is in charge and 1st dog isn't".

Start the scruff with a warning. "GRRRRR!!!" then go up to her and grab her collar, if you can't get her to lay down just bend over her and hold the collar against your leg, restricting movement.

If you do this a couple of times in the presence of the newbie dog then she will learn. If newbie dog does something wrong you can warn with the "GRRRRR" and walk up to her and see how she reacts. Don't grab her. The warning might be enough if she's learnt.
 
OK, I am going to step away from this, because I don't agree with most of what is being said in the last post.

Like prose and Han, I think Ali would be better to call in a professional/on-the-spot person to assess the dogs in at first hand, as seen, not over an internet forum.
 
That can work but it is a very strong, aggressive thing to do. A nervous dog is quite likely to bite in self-defence (I speak from personal experience).

I agree that dogs need guidance and leadership from their owners, but there are ways and means of showing this, and a one-size-fits-all approach is not going to work for any animal, no matter what its species.

There is absolutely no shame in seeking professional guidance from an experienced and qualified behaviourist. Most people would not try to overcome serious issues in our horses without the aid of instructors and other professionals, and I believe that our dogs should not be treated any differently.
 
Oopsie, it seems I've inadvertantly started a contraversial thread here!

The odd thing is that Nala and Ruby are both perfect the majority of the time, they both sit, wait, come, leave etc on command and walk calmly side by side on the lead (we are very lucky with them really!) We even got commended by the vet for having such balanced quiet dogs when they went for their boosters the other day!
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Nalas dominant behaviour isn't with every dog, most she sniffs and ignores, many she will nicely play with (no obvious hierarchy established) and only two or three times now has she really showed dominant behaviour- once with a boxer, once with an elderly jack russell and the other day with a young Shepherd, although in this case he had flown up to us whilst she was on the lead and a few minutes later (when he came up again after she was off lead) they played happily. I get the impression she almost does it to show off in front of Ruby? Is that possible/likely?

Ruby again is brilliant the huge majority of the time, both dogs quite often carry around slippers, found sticks, the leather lead etc and they both happily play tug of war with it but will drop it on command - and they both fetch tennis ball(s) without any issues. The items she has got obsessive about were genuinely not hers, not particularly tasty and not interesting to Nala. Her possessiveness over them was definitely because she didn't want to give them up to us... interestingly she has been obsessed by items that I've wanted to take from her and have found that by standing away from her (1mtr) and saying 'leave' she will begrudgingly give it up without a fuss; it seems to be when people take items from her that she snaps.... I'm worried that when visiting kids who are notorious for snatching or when trying to take things from her that we don't know she has got possessive about, this could happen again.
 
I would definately consult a recommended behaviourist, they will be able to advise you on what is happening with your dogs much better than any of us on an internet forum. In the meantime try some clicker training with them ( individually), and offering a high value reward to swap with anything Ruby has rather than just try and take it from her. It is unlikely your dogs are being dominant, they do need rules and limits to live by, but we are not their pack leaders, and alpha rolling any dog is an extremely dangerous ( and totally pointless) thing to do.

I work with two trainers who use teaching dogs to help aggressive dogs and the teaching dogs do not pin dogs down, they use their body language ( body blocking etc) to show the dogs that what they are doing is not acceptable.
 
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