Help please

[Jacksprat999]

Hi I am totally new to the horse world and I am having a steep learning curve. My children ( just coming up to teens) have ridden at 8/9 and left but now we are back, restarted July 19. They have weekly lessons. On the yard we have a separate stable block from everyone else because the owners of our loan horse have 5 others too so they are in attendance daily. So we have fully loaned a beautiful Hanoverian male ( similar age to kids) and it’s a full loan but we only do evening muck out, grooming, riding , feeding etc . We pay a monthly fee and everything is covered ( albeit we purchase things because we want to like extra pyjamas and coats and Brow bands and head collars etc ). Our boy was used temporarily for the riding school but has now been pulled out as it was a short term agreement prior to us loaning him. We visit him every evening and at the weekend all day, both days and we are currently on a half term holiday so we have been all day, everyday. He is only jumped on small jumps once each per week ( so twice total) and we give him 2 rest days out of 7. We really are doing our best to do the right thing by him and make sure he is happy and healthy. My kids want their own pony but I have said no, we must loan for a full year at least so that we know what commitment is involved as well as cost. I want to be in a position whereby I can afford the right pony in terms of cost and time. As well as the monthly ongoing costs too. I/we want to be responsible horse owners and I have told the kids that they must go through winter first, without complaining about having to go and muck out and once they show me that they are responsible and committed, I will consider after a year of loaning, us getting our own horse. . The family we loan from are wonderful and are teaching us so much about the health and well-being and how to care for our horse. But there’s an issue that has arisen and I don’t know where I stand . (Before you ask, I don’t have a loan contract as I didn’t even know that such a thing existed until joining this forum today).
The yard where our horse is stabled runs a riding school and they have 18 horses available for use. As stated, my loan horse is not used for riding school lessons any more, but today when we arrived at the stables, the overall owner of the farm/stables/riding school had our horse out in the sand pit working him on a lesson. He was then used for 3 back to back lessons and this included high jumps. Firstly, neither I or the owner of our horse knew about this and secondly, the yard owner approached my kids who were with dad and said that he will not be available on Friday as she is using him for a party . I am incensed ! Today was our own imposed mandatory rest day for our boy so that he is not overworked with it being half term and the kids being present all day every day this half term week. Plus it’s a special Halloween day tomorrow so we wanted him fresh for that which he now won’t be. Furthermore, my kids cannot now jump him because he’s been jumped really high today which means his once per week quota is fulfilled. I have contacted the owner of our boy and they are not at all happy and didn’t know about this. But there’s been a previous discussion whereby it has been agreed between the yard owner and our boys owner that if and only if, the riding school is absolutely desperate, then as a one off, provided permission is sought in advance from either myself or the horse owner, he can be used but it has to be a one off. Now I am all for keeping the peace but this has happened a few times now and today is the final straw. Each time the yard owner is told not to but it seems that this instruction is totally being ignored. So after a long winded essay my question is ‘ is this normal?’, ‘What’s the etiquette regards this?’ ‘Where do I stand because she owns the yard ?’ ‘Can she just say that she’s using him on Friday and my kids can’t when I have full paid up loan?’. Personally I feel like I know the answer to these questions but because I am a novice, I feel like I’m being walked over , as is the horses owner because they don’t like confrontation and want to keep the peace. I and my kids love this old boy and we don’t want to lose him but equally I can’t shut up and say nothing for much longer and I don’t want to cause my boys owner, any stress or ill feeling by me putting my foot down and I don’t want to chance being told to leave the yard if I do respectfully and politely address this with the yard owner. Please help



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Hi I am totally new to the horse world and I am having a steep learning curve. My children ( just coming up to teens) have ridden at 8/9 and left but now we are back, restarted July 19. They have weekly lessons. On the yard we have a separate stable block from everyone else because the owners of our loan horse have 5 others too so they are in attendance daily. So we have fully loaned a beautiful Hanoverian male ( similar age to kids) and it’s a full loan but we only do evening muck out, grooming, riding , feeding etc . We pay a monthly fee and everything is covered ( albeit we purchase things because we want to like extra pyjamas and coats and Brow bands and head collars etc ). Our boy was used temporarily for the riding school but has now been pulled out as it was a short term agreement prior to us loaning him. We visit him every evening and at the weekend all day, both days and we are currently on a half term holiday so we have been all day, everyday. He is only jumped on small jumps once each per week ( so twice total) and we give him 2 rest days out of 7. We really are doing our best to do the right thing by him and make sure he is happy and healthy. My kids want their own pony but I have said no, we must loan for a full year at least so that we know what commitment is involved as well as cost. I want to be in a position whereby I can afford the right pony in terms of cost and time. As well as the monthly ongoing costs too. I/we want to be responsible horse owners and I have told the kids that they must go through winter first, without complaining about having to go and muck out and once they show me that they are responsible and committed, I will consider after a year of loaning, us getting our own horse. . The family we loan from are wonderful and are teaching us so much about the health and well-being and how to care for our horse. But there’s an issue that has arisen and I don’t know where I stand . (Before you ask, I don’t have a loan contract as I didn’t even know that such a thing existed until joining this forum today).
The yard where our horse is stabled runs a riding school and they have 18 horses available for use. As stated, my loan horse is not used for riding school lessons any more, but today when we arrived at the stables, the overall owner of the farm/stables/riding school had our horse out in the sand pit working him on a lesson. He was then used for 3 back to back lessons and this included high jumps. Firstly, neither I or the owner of our horse knew about this and secondly, the yard owner approached my kids who were with dad and said that he will not be available on Friday as she is using him for a party . I am incensed ! Today was our own imposed mandatory rest day for our boy so that he is not overworked with it being half term and the kids being present all day every day this half term week. Plus it’s a special Halloween day tomorrow so we wanted him fresh for that which he now won’t be. Furthermore, my kids cannot now jump him because he’s been jumped really high today which means his once per week quota is fulfilled. I have contacted the owner of our boy and they are not at all happy and didn’t know about this. But there’s been a previous discussion whereby it has been agreed between the yard owner and our boys owner that if and only if, the riding school is absolutely desperate, then as a one off, provided permission is sought in advance from either myself or the horse owner, he can be used but it has to be a one off. Now I am all for keeping the peace but this has happened a few times now and today is the final straw. Each time the yard owner is told not to but it seems that this instruction is totally being ignored. So after a long winded essay my question is ‘ is this normal?’, ‘What’s the etiquette regards this?’ ‘Where do I stand because she owns the yard ?’ ‘Can she just say that she’s using him on Friday and my kids can’t when I have full paid up loan?’. Personally I feel like I know the answer to these questions but because I am a novice, I feel like I’m being walked over , as is the horses owner because they don’t like confrontation and want to keep the peace. I and my kids love this old boy and we don’t want to lose him but equally I can’t shut up and say nothing for much longer and I don’t want to cause my boys owner, any stress or ill feeling by me putting my foot down and I don’t want to chance being told to leave the yard if I do respectfully and politely address this with the yard owner. Please help



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[gostelr]

It sounds like an issue between the horse owner & yard owner. Personally I would tell the horse owner to sort it out immediately as in you want the horse on Friday. If she has 6 horses on the same yard, she should be able to put pressure on the YO. If not you will be ceasing to lease. & you will not have to give notice because there is no loan agreement. Then be prepared to find yourself another pony if necessary. What you are putting up with is not fair when you are paying for a full loan.

 

[be positive]

It is not normal but loaning in the way you are is not really normal either, paying a monthly fee is not a common way of loaning as most people would pay livery directly to the YO with all the other extras on top and are rarely based with the owners, fully loaned horses are usually under the full control of the loaners and this arrangement seems as if the owner is still in control, which can work well for novice loaners but can leave things open to interpretation or as in this case abuse of your goodwill.
The YO has used him in the past and is taking advantage, 3 lessons in one day sounds to me as if this was planned use at a busy time, not a one off because of a lame horse or something similar, as is Friday because it is half term, now you are paying for him, taking full responsibility for the costs and care he should be for your use only, I would speak to his owner, take his tack home on Thursday, arrive early on Friday, before lessons start and go out for a nice long hack, if you cannot sort this out I would suggest you look for another option, this type of issue rarely gets sorted out totally and your girls will be the ones losing out every time the RS gets busy, weekends and holidays.

 

[Jacksprat999]

It sounds like an issue between the horse owner & yard owner. Personally I would tell the horse owner to sort it out immediately as in you want the horse on Friday. If she has 6 horses on the same yard, she should be able to put pressure on the YO. If not you will be ceasing to lease. & you will not have to give notice because there is no loan agreement. Then be prepared to find yourself another pony if necessary. What you are putting up with is not fair when you are paying for a full loan.

Thank you - I wasn’t sure if there was a presumed use by virtue of etiquette

 

[Jacksprat999]

It is not normal but loaning in the way you are is not really normal either, paying a monthly fee is not a common way of loaning as most people would pay livery directly to the YO with all the other extras on top and are rarely based with the owners, fully loaned horses are usually under the full control of the loaners and this arrangement seems as if the owner is still in control, which can work well for novice loaners but can leave things open to interpretation or as in this case abuse of your goodwill.
The YO has used him in the past and is taking advantage, 3 lessons in one day sounds to me as if this was planned use at a busy time, not a one off because of a lame horse or something similar, as is Friday because it is half term, now you are paying for him, taking full responsibility for the costs and care he should be for your use only, I would speak to his owner, take his tack home on Thursday, arrive early on Friday, before lessons start and go out for a nice long hack, if you cannot sort this out I would suggest you look for another option, this type of issue rarely gets sorted out totally and your girls will be the ones losing out every time the RS gets busy, weekends and holidays.

Thank you for your advice and yes I have taken home his tack already. I wasn’t aware that there was a different type of loaning , as I admit upfront, I am a novice on a steep learning curve but the horse owner pays over £1000 monthly just for stables and grass and use of the ménage when not being used on lessons ( albeit it’s shared with other owners ). They pay all their own livery feed hat etc on top of that and the agreement with the YO is that they are left alone in their own stable block to run it as they wish and the only stipulation is that we still have to have a minimum of a half hour £30 lesson each per week that goes to the YO . Other than that , there are no other conditions.

 

[be positive]

The owner of your horse is paying £1k per month to rent 6 boxes and use the arena, that seems very high, are you in the UK? if you are this yard must be in an expensive area and should have decent facilities, it makes the borrowing of the horse even more cheeky when they are already doing rather well out of his owner and you with the lesson costs.
I am guessing you pay a fair amount to loan, plus the £30 per week to the YO, if you want to pm me more details on the arrangement as a YO myself I may be able to give you a bit more of an idea as to whether you are getting a fair deal.
You do really need to get a proper contract in place to ensure you are covered in case the horse gets injured, some kit gets damaged and that appropriate insurance is in place in case of an accident to you, your children, the horse or a third party .

 

[dogatemysalad]

It's totally unacceptable and not part of any horsey etiquette. It's the same as leasing a car and discovering that the car park owners are hiring your car out.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It is completely unacceptable under any terms of a loan. I would make my point by with-holding part of the fee that you pay, so that the owner gets this sorted out with the yO. If your money goes starigh to YO, I would tell YO that as horse seems to have been moved to working livery, you will not be paying the full amount of livery that you have been doing. The way to make people understand that you mean business is often to hit their pockets.

 

[twiggy2]

I would be speaking to the owner,the horse belongs to them and they have an agreement with the YO, your agreement with the owners the horse is completely seperate.
I would be telling the owner of the horse that if this continues I will be cancelling the loan.
I think your worrying too much about the work the horse is doing but that is your choice and if you are full loaning he is yours to use when you wish to within any parameters yourself and the owner have made.

 

[Upthecreek]

You said the agreement between owner and YO is they can use him if desperate provided agreement is sought in advance. YO did not seek agreement in advance so the owner needs to tell her this is unacceptable & must not happen again. If she is not prepared to do this I would end the loan because this will continue to happen. You are paying to loan the horse and what has happened is not fair to your children or the horse. That said, it sounds like a very unusual loan arrangement and without a contract in place it would actually be very difficult to dispute anything because there is no formal agreement stipulating how it should work.

 

[Ambers Echo]

What a mess! As far as I can work out - your agreement is with the owner and the owner's is with the yard owner. And there is nothing in writing for either of you which leaves the arrangements open to interpretation. If the owner is unassertive I suspect she has given very different nuances to the issue of the YO using the horse. Ie saying to you 'oh only of they are desperate and with permission' and to her 'oh I guess so if you need him!" The YO really may not be doing much wrong here. It may all just be down to misscommunication so all is not lost imo.

But I think you need to make things crystal clear that you are loaning the horse for your sole use and the occasional use of the horse must stop or you will end the loan. I'd be clear that you want the horse on Friday and if he is not available for you, then you will reduce the fee you are prepared to pay. And that you want a contract in place. You can down load a template from the BHS website and exclude working livery on the form.