help with a difficult horse- also in CR

charlie76

charlie76

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We have owned the horse for 3 yrs now and he never gets any better. I will give you a list of his behaviour and I know that everyone will scream back problems or ulcers but we have had him scanned and x rayed and scoped for ulcers and it shows nothing, last check was last year so he could have got a problem in between but his behaviour has been bad from the start of purchase.
This is him:
Handling:
He is aggressive in the stable
He tries to bite you when you tack him up
He is never still, he scrapes, kicks the door and weaves
He is a total pain in the lorry as he kicks all the time

To ride: When you mount he sometimes cow kicks and sinks his back as you get on
He marches off and when you stop him he snatches the rein and threatens to rear
He is really behind the leg
He won't accept the contact - he is either leaning on it or dropping behind the contact
If you put him on the outside rein and then ask for bend he rears
His rearing can go on for about 5 mins, he then goes forward but he will rear again as soon as you put pressure on him and these are BIG rears
He cannot collect the canter- if you shorten the canter he goes really tense in the back and his hindleg doesn't come through- in turn this makes his jumping near on impossible as you can't ride a stride. Or he rears or goes almost 4 time and is so horrid to sit on.
He doesn't make a proper shape over a fence- he gets over but its not nice and if you are slightly wrong he will rear. As soon as he sees a fence his head comes up and he hollows
Hacking- if you trot and he goes too quickly and you ask him to slow down he chucks his head or he will threaten to rear
When you take him out in the lorry to a show/training he gets so worked up he is shaking and dripping in sweat.
He can't keep a rythm over canter poles.
In his transitions, esp downwards he snatches the rein gets unbalanced- we have tried to improve this by riding lots of transitions trying to use as much seat rather than hand and he does about 3 ok and then starts rearing.
Lateral work- rushes and throws his head.
Lunging
Brilliant! He is soft, obedient, active and balanced. He looks amazing on lunge both in trot and canter. The canter is very adjustable on lunge and there is no tension.

As I have said we have had him scanned, x rayed, scoped for ulcers, saddle checked, teeth done, monthly physio and equissage, he is feed a magnesium based calmer, has daily turn out, has a equilibriam massage pad, tried different riders of different standards. Nothing helps.

Any ideas??
 
all that screams to me kissing spines, or piching somewhere. the mounting and dipping of the back is a classic sign of being cold back, which is poss why hes a pain to tack up.
there sound like there must be discomfort somewhere for him to be so resistant. eithert than or he just dam naughty.
if hes fine on the lunge he must be uncomfortable weight bearing, have your bute trialed him?
if it were me, i would lunge him for 2 weeks in a chambon / pessoa and build good back muscle up and then see what hes like.
 
I'll be honest- if it were mine I would be convinced he has a muscular problem somewhere which hasn't been picked up on.

Mixed with a bit of naughtiness, I'll admit!!

Have u had a physio out? Or an old horseman/ woman? Cause it sounds like they should be able to go straight to it.

Either way, he's not a happy bunny and I'm pretty sure he associates you with hurting him, hence the general bad behaviour on the ground.

I would also consider (once you've checked out the physical side) sending him to a professional to fix some of the problems, as they will be ingrained now (and I must say, I'm really not a fan of rearers!!)

From what you've said this horse is screaming out that he's in pain somewhere, you've just got to find it!!!

(ps if it is muscular it's unlikely that your vet will have found it)
 
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The xrays would have shown kissing spine though??
Would the physio/sports therapist not have found a muscle problem?
He is 16.3hh Hannovarian Gelding, he is now 9 yrs old.
The weird thing is, when he events he does really well, usually gets between 22 and 32 in the dressage, 1 down SJ and clear XC in time, he was placed in the top ten every time out at BE100 and was in the top 15 BE novice last year but we still have this behaviour at home!
He has good muscle tone.
 
Agree with other posters that he is probably in pain just have to find out where! Physios will not necessarily pick up a muscular problem, I don't think?
 
charlie76 said:
The weird thing is, when he events he does really well, usually gets between 22 and 32 in the dressage, 1 down SJ and clear XC in time, he was placed in the top ten every time out at BE100 and was in the top 15 BE novice last year but we still have this behaviour at home!
He has good muscle tone.
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Until you said this ^^^, my thoughts were circling around a piece of lead at high velocity, TBH.
How about a full body scan? I know it's not cheap, but maybe it's worth throwing some money at discovering the problem once and for all? And consider EPSM, too.
 
No advice other that whats been given...just wanted to say what a saint (or is it lunatic??) you've been to put up with this!! Lol!! You must see something you love in this horse to cope with that for 3 years so I'd definately say throwing some more money to fully research what's going on would be a wise investment.
 
Tried a hackamore- no different,
he is the trickiest horse we have ever had.
We have tried being nice and getting after him and none work.
The only time he goes well and feels nice is in a pair of draw reins.
 
martlin said:
How bizarre though, that he performs very well at competitions, but is such a pain at home :confused:
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^^ it likely because it's a completely different atmosphere he's ignoring the pain, then at home remembers it!!

OP is there somebody with an equissage machine near you? Preferably one who has been trained? Because if they know what they're doing I would pretty much put money that they wil go straight to it!!!

Alternatively do you know somebody who has a horse which has been crashed at some point? Because it's more than likely that theyll pick it out too
 
He seems to take comfort in having a 'stablizer' ie side reins/draw reins but once this is off he starts.

If you tell him off he throws a total wobbly but is then better, however its a scared better rather than a wanting to do it better.

we have a lady who comes and treats him with an equissage every month both using this and the hand held unit.
 
I'd look at his diet.
We had a TBxWelshD mare from the age of 4. She got progressively more difficult to ride and handle until eventually, when she was 12, for completely unrelated reasons, we changed her diet to exclude sugar and all cereals. For the first 3 days she was like a drug addict going 'cold turkey' but then her behaviour completely changed.
She had a range of problems which sound very similar to your horse's issues and which we certainly didn't link to her diet, (this was many years ago). My guess is that when he is away from home adrenalin kicks in and carries him through.
I hope this helps but if you need more info please feel free to PM me.
 
At competitions, I'd say that's adrenaline kicking in so he isn't as focussed on his pain.

Given you've tried so much, how about something totally off the wall. There was a really inteeresting post on here last week regarding an animal communicator. If you tried everything logical, why not try the illogical? Sounds as though you think enough of him you really want to sort this out.
 
Strange she hasn't picked it up... I would be looking either down his front and under te girth, or his hips tbh.

What does she think? Or just she just do the workout and doesnt actually poke him?(I'm not saying she's not doing her job, just that there's 2 different ways of doing it)
 
Hi in response to Pip6's suggestion I have used animal communicators and this can be very helpful for certain things, but all I would say is you must remember that this is a horse and if you start asking about pain you may not get a correct answer. If a horse has had a niggling pain for years he would see that as 'normal' - the horse may not associate a headache as an unusual pain, so just be aware that you can probably get a cheap communication, but it may not give you the answers you are seeking. It hasn't for me and my aggressive Westphalian. I learnt he had been abused ridden, but he would not acknowledge any pain (although scoped and has low grade ulcers) and although the horse apparently asked 3 times for me to change his name and I did this I have not seen any improvement from that.
My next stop is iridology - that is inexpensive and reputed to be extremely good. Worth a go?
 
Plenty of poking and prodding him, she is fab.
we will try anything as if it can't be solved then there is only one way left for him
 
charlie76 said:
Plenty of poking and prodding him, she is fab.
we will try anything as if it can't be solved then there is only one way left for him
Click to expand...

The other option is that it's a remembered pain, which has turned into naughtiness as a result (tho genuine naughtiness as you've said he gets upset when you tell him off)
What did she say when she first started doing him? Did she pick anything up? If she's good then she's possibly fixed him, and it's purely defensive and expecting to be hurt.

Can you school him bareback? Or is that too dangerous to try? Cause you can feel a lot more, and you'd also know if it's either a problem related to the saddle, or a memory attached to which automatically flicks a switch in his head

I wouldn't give up just yet, he is telling you something, but if it is memory obviously it's a lot harder to fix!!!

I would also go the buting route, and then you know beyond a doubt that it's physical or not
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I'd look at his diet.
We had a TBxWelshD mare from the age of 4. She got progressively more difficult to ride and handle until eventually, when she was 12, for completely unrelated reasons, we changed her diet to exclude sugar and all cereals. For the first 3 days she was like a drug addict going 'cold turkey' but then her behaviour completely changed.
She had a range of problems which sound very similar to your horse's issues and which we certainly didn't link to her diet, (this was many years ago). My guess is that when he is away from home adrenalin kicks in and carries him through.
I hope this helps but if you need more info please feel free to PM me.
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We had similar problems with a mare and found that she was sugar intolerant, massive behavioural problems which gave every indication of pain somewhere.

If you haven't already done so get rid of molasses, sugar and cereals.
 
See what you mean re headache/normal.

Fair play to you for tring so hard to help him. Good that he's with you & not being passed about.
 
if he wasn't so good to event we would have given up ( if he was just as bad away from home) but he usually delivers the goods.
We wouldn't sell him but it is becoming very draining.
 
Agree with trying bute for a couple of weeks to see if there isany change.

Can you not ride/hack him at home in draw reins or a market harbourgh, then at comps when he is ok - take them off, I don't think anyone would blame you for doing that.

I had a horse that had to be hacked in a MH - he was perfect with them on, I wouldnt have ridden the pyscho without them!! :)
 
If nothing has been picked up so far perhaps there is psychological pain somewhere?

Odd suggestion I know but have you tried buting him up before working him as a one off just to see what he is like then? May give you an indication if he has pain somewhere which has been missed.
 
It does sound like a classic musculoskeletal problem.

What changes when you go out to an event? Think hard, every little detail. Is it the excitement (him? you? both?), or is it wearing studs, different bit, different boots, or just a different location? Company/lack of company? I would have a go at isolating these changes one by one and see if it affects him. Is he OK to school when not at home? If location is a problem, have a read about geopathic stress.

You say he has had back and ulcers checked for ... is the physiotherapist recognised by the trade body (ACPAT I think?), and have you had a second opinion? Why does he see them monthly? Have you tried a chiropractor?

Hope you can get him sorted.
 
f he was easy and sweet on the ground then I would def be looking at pain however he is not, he is demanding and rude. If you are not paying him attention he scrapes the floor or kicks the door. If you are in the stable and you ask him move over he will pull a face or lift a leg at you. if you are touching him, trimming him, clipping him he is very sweet, the second you stop and walk away he goes to bite you.
When ridden, he can go for 20 mins or so with no issues as long as he is going his way. Take last night for example, 2 canter poles- 6 strides apart- cantered down at the speed he wanted and was fine. Instructor asked rider to put in 7 so rider had to use a bit more leg and hand, horse got half way between poles and stood up. Came round again next time at his speed, fine again.
hacking out, trotting nicely up a hill, gets a bit onward- rider asks him to just slow down a little, he chucks his head and throws a strop.Trot up the next hill- totally fine??!!??
If there was a trigger it would be easy to work with but there isn't!
It seems with him both ridden and in hand that its his way or no way.
Will def try an animal communicator.
he is lunged in a bit- he doesn't mind. He is the best lunge horse in the world!
 
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