help with a difficult horse- also in NL

charlie76

charlie76

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 March 2006
Messages
4,665
Visit site
We have owned the horse for 3 yrs now and he never gets any better. I will give you a list of his behaviour and I know that everyone will scream back problems or ulcers but we have had him scanned and x rayed and scoped for ulcers and it shows nothing, last check was last year so he could have got a problem in between but his behaviour has been bad from the start of purchase.
This is him:
Handling:
He is aggressive in the stable
He tries to bite you when you tack him up
He is never still, he scrapes, kicks the door and weaves
He is a total pain in the lorry as he kicks all the time

To ride: When you mount he sometimes cow kicks and sinks his back as you get on
He marches off and when you stop him he snatches the rein and threatens to rear
He is really behind the leg
He won't accept the contact - he is either leaning on it or dropping behind the contact
If you put him on the outside rein and then ask for bend he rears
His rearing can go on for about 5 mins, he then goes forward but he will rear again as soon as you put pressure on him and these are BIG rears
He cannot collect the canter- if you shorten the canter he goes really tense in the back and his hindleg doesn't come through- in turn this makes his jumping near on impossible as you can't ride a stride. Or he rears or goes almost 4 time and is so horrid to sit on.
He doesn't make a proper shape over a fence- he gets over but its not nice and if you are slightly wrong he will rear. As soon as he sees a fence his head comes up and he hollows
Hacking- if you trot and he goes too quickly and you ask him to slow down he chucks his head or he will threaten to rear
When you take him out in the lorry to a show/training he gets so worked up he is shaking and dripping in sweat.
He can't keep a rythm over canter poles.
In his transitions, esp downwards he snatches the rein gets unbalanced- we have tried to improve this by riding lots of transitions trying to use as much seat rather than hand and he does about 3 ok and then starts rearing.
Lateral work- rushes and throws his head.
Lunging
Brilliant! He is soft, obedient, active and balanced. He looks amazing on lunge both in trot and canter. The canter is very adjustable on lunge and there is no tension.

As I have said we have had him scanned, x rayed, scoped for ulcers, saddle checked, teeth done, monthly physio and equissage, he is feed a magnesium based calmer, has daily turn out, has a equilibriam massage pad, tried different riders of different standards. Nothing helps.

Any ideas??
 
if he is ok on the lunge what is he like with different riders?

also, can he jump on the lunge and if so, does he still hollow and run?
 
First poor you!

You do seem to have tried everything, but the fact that he is fine on the lunge indicates some pain when ridden, I am wondering if it could be soft tissue damage which would not really show on an xray, what has the vet said?
 
What is he fed..............not from the point of view that you are feeding him stuff making him fizzy

Have you thought about EPSM? some horses have this and show all sorts of behavioural problems without EVER showing signs of tying up

What is his muscle tone like?

Some horses do only show behavioural problems for several years. my own was like this, but as well as naughty could also lack energy so I fed him up. That was when the EPSM really showed up.


http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsmsigns_data.htm
 
Vet says nothing there, he has been like it for three years and has had time off in this period so would hope soft tissue would heal? He hasn't been xrayed this year but you would think if his behaviour has always been like it ( hence why we got vet in first place) then they would have found something.
We have tried different riders- he is no better. different abilties, height, weights- no different.
The weird thing is, when he competes he is usually good- he was in the top 10 at BE 100 last year and top 15 BE novice everytime out with dressage scores between 22 and 32 so not awful.
How can this be when he is so bad at home/training??
 
He has just mix and beet in the morning as he won't eat anything else and the same plus HI FI in the evening. He has not shown any signs of tying up at all.
He has pretty good muscle tone- will take a look at your link.
 
It was just a thought. Now all else has been tried it might be worth trying the diet just to see. you have nothing to lose!

As I say lots of horses don't show any signs of tying up it doesn't even show up in blood work!! I had to have the biopsy to be sure
 
I feel for you Charlie, we've had many similar issues with our mare but have only just started to take her out to any sort of comp recently.

Maybe it's something muscular/tissue that doesn't show up in ex rays? Whabout about trying some Bowen Therapy for him? Also, what are his feet like? Our horse has been a different person since we got some remedial farriery for her
 
well its something to look into- thanks for that.
his feet are brilliant and I have also had his front feet, fetlocks and hocks xrayed as well as his poll and sacroiliac
 
Just a thought - the one thing that stood out from the ridden section is that everything started when you took up contact. Ever tried a hackamore? Just incase he has some weird mouth thing going on??

I dont think it is the answer but maybe worth trying...
 
skint1 said:
I feel for you Charlie, we've had many similar issues with our mare but have only just started to take her out to any sort of comp recently.

Maybe it's something muscular/tissue that doesn't show up in ex rays? Whabout about trying some Bowen Therapy for him? Also, what are his feet like? Our horse has been a different person since we got some remedial farriery for her
Click to expand...
I second bowen therapy. Even though my horse was never like this, his behavior in general has improved heaps.
 
Tried a hackamore- no different,
he is the trickiest horse we have ever had.
We have tried being nice and getting after him and none work.
The only time he goes well and feels nice is in a pair of draw reins.
 
Have you tried him in different saddles to see if that makes any difference? Have you just had your saddle checked by one person or got a second opinion? I really feel for you, it sounds like you've done every investigation possible and if he is going well on the lunge it would seem to suggest that it is an objection to the rider / saddle etc.

Another thought - do you lunge with a bit in or just on a cavesson?
 
yep, tried different saddles. and all sorts of pads and saddle cloths.
I lunge in the bit and either a pessoa or side reins.
 
sorry, tried this too and he is fine, I think prob as he has the side reins on. He seems to take comfort in having a 'stablizer' ie side reins/draw reins but once this is off he starts.

If you tell him off he throws a total wobbly but is then better, however its a scared better rather than a wanting to do it better.
 
OK well if he is ok with a passengers I'd guess its not back pain.
Maybe just give in and ride him in draw reins at home, as he appears to be OK at comps.
Hopefully in time you can 'wean' him off them by gradually making them looser and looser...

I don't know :) sounds terribly fustrating and well done for percivering for 3 yrs!!!

Oh been meaning to ask - how old is he? Did his prev. owners mention any of his 'issues' and dealing with them?
 
Last edited:
He is 9 and VERY well bred!
He is normal with other horses, grooming each other etc. We turned him away a year ago and restarted him, it made no difference. He is the same with all types of rider no matter what size, shape, abilty they are.
I beieve that he was not easy to back and start and tried it on in the school when put under pressure so he was really just hacked as a young horse but was ridden a lot in draw reins.
Sadly, our situation means he cannot be out 24/7, not everyones ideal but its how we have to keep him.
Ground work wise ( apart from in the stable which I believe stems from his past as I think he was hungry) he has perfect manners to lead and deal with. He is happy when you are grooming, trimming, touching him but not if he is loose and you are in his space. Ifyou stroke him in the stable he is nice and smiley, as soon as you stop touching him he bites you!
 
How is he bred out of interest?

I would definitely get a Bowen therapist out - I can recommend someone, but not sure if she will come all the way to you (am thinking for some reason you are Reading area but i might be wrong!) Im seeing her tonight as shes doing a talk in Salisbury so could ask her if she will come your way if you are interested?
 
Sounds awful! I noticed that you feed sugar beet. Have you tried no sugar or starch diets? Makes a huge difference to some of my horses. Some can't tolerate Alfalfa either. Doesn't really sound like a food related problem, but everything's worth a try!
 
we have left the beet out, it doesn't make any odds. He is so tricky as you can be riding round the school thinking how nice he is the next minute he is having a tantrum and its never ever caused my the same thing.
he is hannovarian. Very closely related to Shutterfly.
 
i'd feed him hay only, nothing additional, and definitely get a McTimoney Chiro and/or a Bowen therapist to treat him. I'd think about sending him to Jason Webb, Richard Maxwell or someone similar. And I know it sounds mad but I'd try an animal communicator - what have you got to lose? (good ones will refund if you aren't happy that the reading is accurate.)
Other than that, nothing to add, it sounds as if you have tried just about everything. Poor horse and poor you.
 
If you have tried everything and he is that unhappy I personally wouldn't continue. I'm sure that's not going to be a popular answer and equally sure you won't think it's a good idea but if you have eliminated pain which is what it very much sounds like it is then it must be something in the horse that makes him unhappy ridden. I know they are too expensive to not be doing a job but for me a horse doesn't have to let me ride it, together a bond is created and you can do something that is totally un natural for the animal. This horse sounds like riding is making him very stressed. We had a dealing pony that was a pleasure but terrified when you tried to get on, we tried working with her but she just hated being ridden for some reason, she went as a driving pony and is much happier.
I reallydont say this lightly one of my best horses is retired at 11, after years of problems we eventually found spavin, he should have been able to continue work but he was so unhappy ridden that he is now an ornament. Lots of people checked him and couldn't find anything but it had been pain all along.
 
Last edited:
Agree with the poster above, the horse is obviously in pain somewhere.... he knows where as he can feel it, my guess is neck/wither area, when in draw reins he is in a fixed position, so pain occurs possibly on movement when he's not in them. As for being much better at competitions etc this could probably be because there is so much going on around him it takes his mind off his own discomfort, a horse this unhappy I would not be happy about riding.

Whats your gut feeling? you've had him three years, thats long enough to know by your own instincts whether it's plain pig headedness or discomfort.
 
HUH weird!
Well you've given me a nice puzzle to ponder at work tomorrow if i have any light bulb moments I let you know.

Before I go to bed, 1 last thought ever considred doing some monty roberts join up stuff? I'm not normally an advocate but thought it could help with the whole your space my space thing.
 
if he was easy and sweet on the ground then I would def be looking at pain however he is not, he is demanding and rude. If you are not paying him attention he scrapes the floor or kicks the door. If you are in the stable and you ask him move over he will pull a face or lift a leg at you. if you are touching him, trimming him, clipping him he is very sweet, the second you stop and walk away he goes to bite you.
When ridden, he can go for 20 mins or so with no issues as long as he is going his way. Take last night for example, 2 canter poles- 6 strides apart- cantered down at the speed he wanted and was fine. Instructor asked rider to put in 7 so rider had to use a bit more leg and hand, horse got half way between poles and stood up. Came round again next time at his speed, fine again.
hacking out, trotting nicely up a hill, gets a bit onward- rider asks him to just slow down a little, he chucks his head and throws a strop.Trot up the next hill- totally fine??!!??
If there was a trigger it would be easy to work with but there isn't!
 
I absolutely 2nd trying a Richard Maxwell type person and an animal communicator. I had good results with a communicator, same lady Kerrilli used I think Jackie Weaver. You've tried so much already you may as well go the whole hog.

To me it sounds as if he is very insecure. He is happy when you are touching him, doing things to him but he hates it when you are in his space but not doing anything or paying him attention. When ridden he likes the constant security of draw reins or a contact from side reins, he knows it's there and it doesn't change makes him feel safe. In a competition he's probably too busy concentrating or he doesn't want to let you down? He knows it's performing?
When he throws his tantrums what do you do? He may be attention seeking to get you to pander to him which in turn reassures him? When you relax and start to think of other things he plays up and gets you totally focused on him again? Like a naughty child at school playing up so they are centre of attention.

You may have to just work with him, he sounds a very complicated character! Maybe tie him up outside the stable if you need to muck out/ tie up haynet ect and only put him in when everything is done and you can leave him alone. What about a sheep friend or someone who can live with him in his stable like those quirky racehorses you hear about. If you have to deal with him in the stable muck out only when he is being brushed ect. Riding wise just ride him in draw reins all the time? If he likes that then go with it. Obviously not with them too tight ect but so he knows it's there, his security blanket.

Just some ideas. He's not like it all the time lunging/competing/ being handled so there are some good aspects to him lol
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top