Help with behavioural problems

woodtiger

woodtiger

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Can anyone advise me what might be causing sporadic extremely aggressive behaviour? The horse is a 15.3hh 9yr old KWPN gelding that I bought last summer.

He is lovely 90% of the time, but every so often, generally without any warning (which is what makes him so dangerous), he will turn nasty. This occurs when I am on the ground, leading him, never when riding him. He will rear up and strike out, and by this I mean a proper strike out, going for the head. It is completely unpredictable with no warning.

When I bought him the vendors said not to feed him any hard food (he is on happy hoof, a no-protein feed for laminitic ponies despite showjumping every weekend and being in hard work), and that they never led him anywhere without a chifney in his mouth - they qualified this by saying that this was how they led all their horses as they were close to a main road (granted the main road was 100m away). He had competed to a high level in young horse classes, but then had no competition record for a year, which they said was because he was too small and the girl was busy with other horses, so their groom rode him. I checked this.

For the first few months, he would stand up maybe once a month and strike out. I'd pull him down and growl at him, but he has never been beaten or abused (by me). This has become progressively worse: over Christmas he had a fortnight off as he had lost a front shoe and I had flu, but was turned out every day. When I brought him back into work, I decided to lunge him before getting on. He reared up going into the arena, striking out and hitting me. I persevered, but he was very fresh and got loose. He reacted like no other horse I have every experienced:- once he had had his hooley, galloping around the manege, I approached him. He came for me in canter, and had I not been able to duck inside an oxer, would have had me, as he reared up and struck out at me.

I have had him with a professional for the past month, as with my job I couldn't give him the daily work he needed. I warned her of the incidents, and she has found similar behaviour: generally when being led, or if she is being legged up. I wondered whether it was hormones: his behaviour is not unlike a stallion "dominating", so I've had him rig tested. Negative. I had put him on a Chaste Berry supplement which is supposed to work on hormones after the test (so he's been on it for two weeks).

The horse was vetted in August 2011, passing a tough five star with flying colours. I've had everything checked - his back is fine etc,. He is competing at 1.15-1.20m level every weekend, winning and being placed in good company, but the behaviour suggests to me that there is something neurologically wrong.

Has anyone on here had any experience of this behaviour before? I am at a loss: I could not sell him, as he could seriously hurt someone. My insurance will not cover tests for a problem that is not medical, but it is getting to the point where I don't know what else to do. This was sold as a horse suitable for "Children on Horses" classes, but there is no way I would want a child handling him. The vendor said nothing about behavioural problems, but will not respond to my calls now. They did say he had once pinned them up against a stable wall, although he hasn't done anything like that with me. Other than this occasional viciousness, he is lovely to do and ride.

It is so sad, as he is a super horse other than this rearing and aiming for you. I am unable to bring him home to the yard I kept him at, as there are children and he is too unpredictable. I have and and can manage quirky, but this is beyond me..... Any suggestions?
 
My insurance will not cover tests for a problem that is not medical
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Testing for a neurological problem is medical though - and I'd be inclined to go down this route.

Out of interest - does he only go up when he's about to be worked - or could it be when he's being turned out/in??
 
It's happened when he is being led in and out of the field, when he has been led to the mounting block or into the manege to be lunged, when he's been led up to the lorry to be loaded or at a show, having come off the lorry.

It always tends to be in hand. It has only been before he's been ridden though. Once worked, he is a pussycat.
 
woodtiger said:
No, always in at night. Could be worth trying; he's clipped out at the mo, although it's not exactly cold...
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Well it's only a thought. But as you say he's fine after being worked, it may just be an excess of energy issue (although I agree sounds very dangerous and unnerving). Perhaps being out 24/7 may help.

Rug him up and chuck him out - may be worth the experiment.....
 
It won't hurt trying him living out. I'd prefer that than him carrying on being so unstable (excuse the pun!). His behaviour has really worried me, and I don't scare easily. I'd do anything to get to the bottom of it, as I don't want him to hurt anyone or himself.
 
Has his poll been checked by a physio, if only when being led it could be that any pressure, or the thought of it, on the poll could be causing this reaction. I would expect other symptoms but worth checking as it can be a very sensitive area.
 
You say the behaviour is stallion like, what's he like with others when he's turned out. Can you see what position he is in the herd? My boy was gelded at four after he had covered some mares and he is usually top horse in the field but he's not agressive at all. If it was hormonal, you would see dominant behaviour in the herd.
I should mention, I tried my boy on CTB for his Cushings and it had the opposite effect on him, he started screaming for the mares when they went out of sight and quite lively to manage whist turning out - fine coming in. Has his behaviour got worse since you started him on CTB?
 
I've had him checked over by a phsyio and a chiropractor and everything was all in order, apart from an old muscular injury behind the saddle, which we have worked on. That has shown major improvement in technique and they suggested it was a very old (one year + injury), but his poll is fine.

At home he is turned out on his own, and has never been angsty about this. I don't think I have ever heard him neigh at anyone actually. The fields are split with electric fencing, and his neighbour is right there. He hasn't shown any agression towards the neighbour.... however when I moved him to the pro yard after Christmas he has shown signs of being colty around their mares: rearing up and setting off towards their field. In the eight months I've had him he has never shown signs of being aroused, but at his home yard (where I kept him), there weren't any mares nearby. The behaviour is stallion-like around people, as if he wants to be the dominant one.

Since being on Chasteberry, he hasn't got worse. I am hoping it will kick in and he will improve, but it is still early days on this.
 
Hi just wanted to mention this in the hope I'm wrong.

My horse is an absolute poppet, loves people to death but shortly after I bought him as an unspoilt youngster (8yrs ago) he developed (or already had???) massive behavioural issues, many the same as you describe.

It took 2 years of gradual deterioration before my vets were able to pinpoint Kissing Spines as the issue. Whilst we were able to keep him in some form of correct work with the back strong, he coped apart from the odd nutty episodes and we just thought he was a naughty youngster, but when I became pregnant and just did very low level work and then stopped riding for a few weeks when my daughter was born he became very volatile when I got back on, (I believe because of muscle deterioration which meant he then couldn't support the structural weakness in his back). I couldn't even lead him to the field or do ground work, the slightest little thing would set off, massive spookiness to say the least!

He didn't look lame for a really long time as it was mild bi-lateral stiffness and shortness of back end stride and physio said nothing wrong and seemed to be able to keep him ticking over and i believe because his initial schooling had been very correct that was why he coped for so long.

The fact that you say your horse was competed at what sounds like a fairly young age makes me wonder if there is some possibly of this because all horses are affected differently some cope, some with really mild cases are horribly panicky. My horse has always been sort of kindly in charge of his herd, but when a lone stallion was put in a nearby field he went absolutely beserk, I think he felt incredibly threatened and was hysterical if he had to leave the mares, he was never like this before the stallion turned up, a little bossy now and again sure, but he started bolting in hand when I led him out of the field and regularly tried to kick my head in etc etc etc. i think the memory of pain with the KS did some mental damage where he lost his confidence, he is now at a yard with the herds split between mares and geldings with no stallions and has been foot perfect for the last 2 yrs, unbelievably easy to do. I wonder if there could be underlying pain which is triggering the extreme behaviour as with my horse.

The good news is that my horse was young and had nothing else wrong, so we operated 5yrs ago and he is doing really well now. Touch wood he hasn't had a lame day since the op and all of the loveliness lurking below the surface has well and truly become part of him as a person. It may be worth asking your vet the question, hopefully you have an experienced vet who will take your concerns on board.

Best of luck, I know how horrid this type of thing is, but at least my little horse has become a success story which should give you plenty of hope!
 
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Thanks for the advice... there was a very old muscular injury behind the saddle, which the physio and chiropractor treated. I wonder whether this might need further investigation. I have no experience of Kissing Spine, but will speak to my vet. It would be great to get to the bottom of this.
 
Well hopefully it is just hormones that a supplement can solve, but even low level niggling pain can really trigger odd behaviour, I have to say I found the whole thing incredibly shocking/worrying but I have learned enormous amounts from the experience!!!!

My horse is quite a strong character and I think he felt he needed to make sure he was in charge of every little bit of his life as it was the only way to feel safe because he knew he had weaknesses. When the stallion turned up he was like something possessed, I regularly had front legs swipping at my head and lashing out at me, the second I got him out of the field he would just stroll up the path to his stable, it was like owning a schizophrenic, never seen anything like it before or since!

Hope it all resolves itself easily for you but please feel free to pm me if it does turn out to be KS as I have loads of info to help you - I am sure this is very unlikely tho, but if a horse is predisposed to KS, a trauma to the area as you have mentioned can allow it to develop but it has become very straightforward to treat these days with many success stories.
 
Your horse sounds exactally like one of my old boys, he was 17.2 and would rear and strike out at you, if you gave him a smack it would esculate the situation. Plenty of people who seen his behaviour pressumed he was a stallion :(
The thing wiyh my boy was he was also very quirky under saddle, I had also been a livery where he was born and brought up and he had always displayed this type of behaviour.

I bought him cheap due to this and I after many tears and stuggles found the best way to deal with him was under no circumstances was he to be lead in any other than a chifney. After putting him as a whole feild, handling and under saddle it was clear he was trying to be the dominent one and always had been up until I bought him.

He eventually settled and chifney could be taken off but he remained quirky but ultimatly had respect for his handler, this never came through giving him a wallop, through long and painful re training.

What am trying to put across while I agree with other posters pain needs to be ruled out sometimes its the horses personality and behaviour thats the problem and it may be a whole re schooling programe inhand you may need to be looking at.
 
I couldn't see where you mentioned what physical checks he has had? Not sure if I missed it - I've been up a lot of the night with my daughter throwing up, so not the sharpest tool in the box today!

I don't think you can move onto considering it behavioural until all possible physical issues have been excluded. Problems like kissing spine & ulcers are always my first thoughts with these kinds of behaviours. There are other issues too, which can cause horses to behave badly - SI, navicular or other foot type issues, all other kinds of issues.

At any time there is a horse with these kinds of issues, I think you really do need to run all the tests and go over the horse from head to toe, if you wish to find/exclude physical problems. I do think a call to your vet, and a full work up would be in order, if not already completed.
 
varkie said:
I couldn't see where you mentioned what physical checks he has had? Not sure if I missed it - QUOTE]

He was vetted thoroughly when I bought him, last August. Since he had no BS winnings for a year, having been very successful as a five and six year old, and I didn't buy the story for his time off (rider was too busy and he was too small for her), I asked the vet to carry out particular checks and do x-rays on feet, limbs and to be extra thorough with looing for any lameness. He passed with flying colours.

I've since had his back checked by the physio and a chiropractor, and teeth checked. All are ok, although as previously mentioned, there is some old muscle damage behind the saddle, so I would be interested in getting this investigated further (kissing spine?)

He is exactly like a schizophrenic. Literally six days of the week he is a sweetheart to handle and on the seventh he will try and knock your lights out.

Thanks again for suggestions. Kind of relieved that it's not just me who is having to dodge forelegs in the air!
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Just to say that my horse passed a 5* vet too, within 2wks of getting him I had a feeling something was badly wrong but liked him so much I couldn't bear to send him back for someone else to have him, not cope and then him go from dealer to dealer.

For what it's worth I also agree with the above couple of replies and have to say that the one thing that got me through was completely re training him and intensive ground work, it helped me get control pre-op and then allowed us to do a brilliant post op rehabilitation along with re-backing. We taught him to long rein which he found less threatening than lunging which he just couldn't tolerate and he became so good he can now do a pre-lim dressage test on them with ease, the groundwork creates a fabulous bond and also I bought a dually which worked better for me than a chiffney which he will go straight through, he is more respectful of the pressure on the nose with the dually and it releases quickly - as I said he is pretty blxxdy minded at times to say the least, 16hh of pure defiance and stubborness when the mood takes him which is hardly ever now and as I'm not quite 5ft tall it was a challenge! I recommend the book by Kelly Marks called "Perfect Manners", I don't agree with it all but it had some very useful tips on ground control that helped us tremendously, you might find it worth a read.
 
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