Help with food amounts

[GG80]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is in the correct forum or not, apologies if not. I am relatively new owner, but as title states, it's about feeding.

Just wanted some advise with regards to feeding amounts. I have a 15.2 Warmblood 11 year old gelding, who I happily bought 5 months ago and has been a star in all ways. I was advised by a very well meaning friend that he was a little underweight, so I duly took advice and changed his feed (introduced slowly over the last couple of weeks) from just chaff and hay, to a non heating brand of horse and pony nuts (not sure if I can say which), molassed chaff, and codlivine for his joints. He is turned out daily (unless absolutely horrendous weather) and is ridden purely as a hacking horse, 3-4 times a week for an hour to an hour an a bit rides, occasionally a couple of hours. Now here comes the advice I am after... how much of this should he be getting, as I am getting conflicting advice from other well meaning friends, and reading other posts on here (and I could be very wrong, I am new to all this) what I have been told to give him is way too much for the work he does. He currently gets 2 x scoop of chaff, started off with just a small amount of nuts which I have now upped a little to and will continue to do so if needed, and a 60ml scoop of codlivine for breakfast, he has access to grass all day, if kept in he is given hay, and then he gets the same feed again for dinner, and a hay net over night. Obviously I want him to be the correct weight, but I don't want to be giving him too much and harming his health in any way. He isn't massively underweight, in fact have been told he isn't at all, just very fit, but I just want to do right by him.

I am still learning and am lucky I have several very horsey friends around me that are happy to help me, but just wondered what the advise of you lovely lot was. Sorry it is so long!!

Thanks in advance.

 

[JennBags]

Firstly, are you absolutely sure he's underweight? You should be able to just see his ribs - where is he on this chart?

The best way to put weight on a horse is by increasing it's forage - i.e. hay or haylage. The first thing I would do - if he's already got ad-lib hay, is try him on haylage. see if that helps. Give it a few weeks.

How have you found him since you've started feeding him nuts? (Yes you can name brands on here by the way). Has his behaviour changed at all, or is he pretty much the same? Add some oil to his feeds - you can just buy a large container of vegetable oil from a supermarket. I wouldn't be feeding molassed chaff - sugar is really not good for horses - maybe something like Alfa-A Oil if he's Ok with alfafa.

 

[GG80]

Hi Jennbags,

Thanks for the quick response

I would say he is 2. He isn't clipped so is obviously quite hairy, but I agree with my friend and you can see his ribs, and feel each one.. I was advised you should be able to skim over them, not feel each one.

He hasn't changed behaviour much, if at all on the nuts, but he hasn't been on them that long...though I did make sure I bought a non heating brand, and since I am allowed to name, they are Spillers Horse & Pony nuts. Once this bag of chaff has run out I will perhaps changed to Alfa-A and oil (is this instead of the Codlivine for his joints or as well as?)

I am still learning a lot and with conflicting advice I was getting a little head muffled!

ETS Meant I will introduce the Alfa-A slowly if required?

 

[JennBags]

Now you're getting more into a personal choice thing!

Personally, I wouldn't feed my horse any fish-derived products as they are designed to be vegetarians, and I assume the Codlivine has fish oil in it. I supplement with Cortaflex for joints. Unless you have any specific joint issues then the oils should be good enough to maintain healthy joints.

Spillers get a lot of bad press, but I like their products so if he's fine energy-wise on them, then I'd stick to them.

It's not just the ribs you need to look at but also the hips. Here's a picture of my boy from a couple of days ago after I'd just clipped him. He's on the lean side, but it is the end of the winter, and I'd rather he was going into spring looking like this; I'd say on balance he's a good weight - we are far too used to seeing fat horses (he's TBxID by the way)

 

[GG80]

Oh he is beautiful, lovely friendly face

My friend just put the fear of god into me when touched him and said I needed to feed him more as he was underweight as you could feel each rib rather than just skim over them. I asked advice of a couple of people and the food above was what we thought would be the best thing, but I don't want to give him too much, especially when another very knowledgeable horse friend said he didn't look underweight at all, just very fit. He is a natural plod whereas friend number 1's horse is a tank so we can't keep up all that well, another reason I think she is of her (well entitled) opinion, that he hasn't enough energy.

I only went with the Codlivine as per advice, but my share horse used to just have normal vegtable oil mixed in.

How do you post pictures? I have a couple of ones I took last week...

 

[JennBags]

Thank you - he is very friendly, everyone's best friend especially if they have treats! I put the picture up because he's not fat, but he's definitely not overweight either and we are so used to seeing fat horses all around. The owner of the horse in the next stable was saying her horse needed to put weight on - but he's already (IMO) slightly overweight and she wouldn't accept it - then she said she likes her horses to be fat, but it's SO bad for them.

Have you got a photobucket account? If so, take the "Direct" link and paste it between the IMG codes. So like this but without the spaces: [ IMG ] DIRECT LINK CODE [ /IMG ]

 

[GG80]

Sounds like mine... he will be in love with you if you have a treat! I guess it seems as though it is all about personal opinion (I am guessing that picture number 2 is how a healthy weight horse should look?). I just want to do right by him and make sure he is getting enough, but equally not giving him too much. Is what I am giving him too much in your opinion?

I don't have a photo bucket account unfortunately

 

[TGM]

Agree with the suggestion to feed ad lib forage - this is much more important in terms of keeping condition on than bucket feed. Does he have any hay left in the morning? If not, I would put two haynets in overnight.

You don't say which brand of molassed chaff you are using, but if it is bog standard molassed chaff it will be just straw coated with molasses, and not a lot of use for increasing condition. Agree that you would be better feeding a higher calorie chaff such as a grass-based one (Readigrass etc) or Alfa A Oil or similar.

If you are not already feeding ad lib forage, you may find just increasing his hay to ad lib will be enough to up his condition without having to change much of his bucket feed. Bear in mind that the grass will start to come through again soon, which will also help him put on weight. Obviously, this presumes that the horse is on a proper effective worming programme and dental care is up to date, as poor condition can be caused by worms/poor dentition.

How much of the nuts are you feeding at the moment? If you rely on nuts to supply the RDA of vit/mins then you should feed near the manufacturers recommended rate, which for Spillers H&P Cubes is 3kg for a horse of his size in light/medium work. If this amount of cubes is not required, then often you are better to feed a balancer or a vit/min supplement instead. How much of the cubes are you feeding now (in terms of weight) and how much have you been told to feed?

At the end of the day, each horse is an individual and has to be fed according to their condition, workload and energy levels. If a horse is lacking condition, then unless there is another underlying cause (such as worms, bad teeth, illness etc) then they need more food, though this should always start with increasing the forage to ad lib first, and then introducing fibre/oil based bucket feeds. But you can't just say that a horse of a certain height and certain workload needs x amount of food - you can use textbook rations as a basis but you have to increase/decrease the amounts according to whether the horse needs more or less condition, and whether it has enough energy for the work it does.

Just seen your later posts - if a horse is an ideal healthy weight the ribs should just be covered and easily felt (although the way they stand or bend can make the ribs look more pronounced, as in the photo above). If your friend was only concerned when she actually felt your horse's ribs, then I suspect she does not have a good knowledge of condition scoring. This is not really down to personal opinion - vets and nutritional experts seem to be pretty unanimous in their assessment of ideal bodyweights. It is only the livery yard experts who vary wildly in what they think is correct! In the chart above, condition score usually 2.5 to 3 is meant to be the 'ideal' healthy body condition. But too many leisure owners prefer their horses to be at least a condition score 4, which is not ideal for their health.

 

[JennBags]

Open a photobucket account then! We need to see pictures of your horse It's free and doesn't take long (and you don't end up getting loads of spammy emails from them which surprised me!).

Yes ideal is 2 or 3 in that chart. 0 and 1 are underweight, 4 and 5 are overweight. I would call my horse a 2 but in the summer he's a 3 going on 4.

 

[GG80]

Thank you for your replies, really helped.

I will have a go at adding haylage into his diet also, and maybe changing the chaff to a non molassed one. He is currently on Molichaff Original which doesn't have a lot else in it so will definitely look to a more vitamined one now. Nuts he has at the moment one large scoop across two feeds as I am introducing them slowly to his diet. He was wormed a few weeks ago and nothing found. I am looking at dentist also for a check up etc. Once the spring grass has come through this will help too

I will have a look at opening a photo bucket account tonight in that case

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Can I suggest that rather than wondering who to listen to on your yard, you ask a trusted professional their opinion of your horse's weight? Next time your farrier/dentist/vet are on the yard ask them what they think about your horse's condition. You will get an honest, unbiased opinion. In fact I would expect that most professionals would have mentioned to you already if they thought that your horse was underweight.

As others have said, rather than introducing nuts (which rarely have good quality ingredients), you increase the forage. You are doing absolutely the right thing in making changes gradually but I wouldn't feed fish-based products to a horse either, there are plenty of plant-based products, such as rose-hip available to do the same job in a horse-friendly manner. If at some point *you*
decide that your horse needs something extra, fibre-based feed, such as grassnuts/unmolassed sugar-beet, is what your horse's digestive system has evolved to deal with. there are plenty of plant-based oils to choose from, linseed (flax) oil is good for horses.

 

[GG80]

Thanks for your advise Pearlasinger, I will definitely take the advice of a professional. My farrier was there last week and didn't mention a thing, but he has to have his last flu jab in a month with my vet so hopefully by then the extra forage etc will have made a difference. He isn't showing any signs of anything wrong, so for now will take heed of all advice given and try and be a little more confident in my ability to decide if he right.

Thanks again.

 

[Scarlett]

I'd highly recommend looking at micronized linseed if you want to add an oil. It's great for joints, coat and can be fed at a higher amount to add a little weight when needed. You buy it in a 20kg bag and feed a mug a day so it lasts for ages.

To be honest it sounds like possibly upping your hay might be enough, along with maybe swapping the chaff to something unmollassed (I like Readigrass for situations like this). There is no harm in a horse being a tiny bit lighter at this time of the year when the grass will be coming through so I wouldn't worry. One of my horses is a 2 on that scale after having a virus mid-winter, she has had her hay upped and has enough so that there is a wee bit left in the am and gets a bit extra linseed in her feed which will keep her going until the grass comes through. Lots of people are still trying to get weight off their horses before spring - I would rather be in our situation! Good luck!

 

[GG80]

Thanks to you all. I feel a lot better about the situation now and am out of the 'panic' zone now. Will see how we go over the next couple of weeks

 

[JennBags]

And we still haven't had photos Sam27

 

[GG80]

Eeek I am in trouble ha ha. Here you go, hopefully this works! First couple are of him at the moment http://s357.photobucket.com/user/Sa...g.html?&_suid=1424864183626006439821634038034
Though that appears to be a ridiculously long link!!!

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I don't want to confuse things too much, but I have a spreadsheet for each horse, so I know what weight he was at any time and what he was getting, feed and work.
I also record exactly which wormer [the ingredient not the brand] and when. I use Westgate Labs to count worms [poop] so I use only the essential wormers.
To measure weight the easiest thing is to get a weigh-tape, this is not deadly accurate for weight but it will tell you if your horse is losing or gaining. Use it once a week, same time. You now need not rely on others opinion, you have your own evidence
The vet will discuss his current condition, he will tell you if more weight is needed [this time of year you want him a bit light]

Re feeding: a daily amount of minerals are needed, the pony nuts and so on tend to recommend the daily amount of nuts to make up the RDA, but this tends to be too generous, [and expensive]. Obviously every horse is getting different work and also the forage will have minerals which may or may not meet his needs, it can never be an exact match and pony will usually excrete excess.

A lot of people find something like Spillers Hi fibre to be quite good as a complete the bagged feeds.
I found that if I fed the unbranded Horse and Pony nuts my horse's coat looked duller.

I discovered Charnwood Milling micronised linseed [100 to 200gms], and added a broad spectrum mineral [Equimins Original], some salt and some NON MOLASSED SOAKED beet pulp [Quick beet]. some non molassed chaff [nice texture], and horse loved it, and it was easy to feed. I added some salt as he would not lick his saltlick.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I looked at the photo, what a beautiful boy. There is no doubt he is not in condition score 3, which in my own words is "well covered, not fat".
He could not be described as thin.
Possibly either "perfect for the time of the year" [they want to be fairly slim before the grass grows] or if this was December and he was losing weight, he would be described as "a bit light".

So really if he needs a bit more just add a mug [100gms] of micronised linseed, and if he loses any weight, up it to 150gms, but check he is not getting molasses [sugars] and that he is getting minerals.
A horse is best on plenty of fibre, nature has designed him as a trickle feeder, so you need to make sure he has plenty of hay or haylage.

 

[paulineh]

We could do with a side view of your horse. His quarters look fine.

I would add a Balancer to a high fibre diet along with the Linseed. I am about to try the Baileys "Keep Calm".

 

[GG80]

Hi Bonkers,

Thanks for your kind comments, and indeed advice. The photos were taken last week so hopefully he is just right for this time of year.
I have started a weight chart and will do as suggested and monitor once a week. I have increased hay and will be getting some haylage at the weekend (farm shop I buy from is only open weekends) and perhaps some Linseed.
Glad he isn't looking 'starved'

 

[GG80]

There should be a side view on there paulineh

 

[paulineh]

Found It. I would use the linseed which will help. He also needs to build his top line and this can be done by schooling and lunging.

 

[JennBags]

That's better Sam27 :biggrin3:

What a lovely looking boy, and I agree with the others, he's definitely not underweight, he's about perfect if you ask me.