help with haflinger mare...nappong, bucking bolshy mare

[wakijaki]

Please help!
I just wrote a relaly long post and then thought its far too long for anyone to actually read it!
Anyway - i have come back to horses after a very long break and after 8 months of looking after a friend horses i bought my own.
A beautiful haffy mare - used for pony treks and beginners rides, beach rides, a 'quiet riding mare - 100% in all ways'
Went to try her out and she was fine - just wanted something quiet to hack out and take for a canter across the beach now and then.

Left her settle in for a few days - took her out in company and on our own and she was fine. Then it was as if she felt more settled and started trying it on. She bucked in the field and out hacking on our own when she refused to move. Couldn't take her anywhere on her own - she would root to the spot or try spinning backwards. She also hates having the bridle on and squeals and fights when it comes to tacking up.
So had all the checks done - teeth, seat, back and tack and feet - all fine so nothing physical.
Should add she lives out so the only thing she gets is an apple a day with her calming powder and garlic.
Took her out in company - brilliant. Been leading her in hand and even this causes her to nap and buck and spin so i have to be very firm with her. Only tried lunging her once and she went nuts - bolting around, bucking inwards towards me and coming right at me. So i can't exercise her except for hacking out.
Have spent time doing ground work with her and working on getting her to accept having her feet picked up, moving around me, have worked with getting her to take the bit with a treat and also tried a bitless bridle on her.
I had decided last week to send her back and contacted the seller who said she was never like that before so she said she would have her back for 2 weeks - if i could get her back to them - over 2 hours away and i don't drive and at my expense. I took her out for one last hack with my friend and she was good as gold so i changed my mind and decided to work on the issues.
But now we are back to square one - i can't ride her without her napping and bucking - not to mention i can't often get company. I can't even lead her as she does the same and as much as i try to stay calm and in control I am worried she is going to end up hurting me. I just don't know what to do - i hate to give up and have everyone say i told you so and also for her to get passed about and unsettled again. But i also have to say - i am not enjoying her at all as i can't do anything with her apart from grooming without it turning in to war.
She was also a nightmare for the farrier and she was very naughty when having her back checked. The lady has 50 years experince with horses and she said its as if her first instinct is to pick a fight with you.
Thanks in advance

 

[JulesRules]

Hiya

Sorry to hear you are having these problems. Horses are supposed to be enjoyed after all.

If you have already had all the checks done it does sound like she is taking the pee. I think all horses do this to some extent with a new owner. I had a lot of napping issues with my girl in our early days.

I think the best thing you can do is to find a good instructor who will help you to get your confidence back with this horse.

Also, I know it's so easy to say and less easy to do ( a big misbehaving horse can be very scary) but you mustn't let her get the better of you. If she wins every fight you have she will just walk all over you and make the situation worse.

Finally, what is the calmer you are giving her? Was she on it when you got her? It might be worth stopping this or trying something different if she really needs it. Sometimes these things can affect one horse different to another.

Hope this helps and good luck

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

If you can send her back still, I would do, as although it sounds as tho she's trying it on in a big way, that's a hard thing to work through as a first horse.

Haflingers are wonderful horses but they are strong minded cobs and really need (but all too rarely get) consistent firm handling day in day out from day 1 to the day they die! in the UK lots are imported from the continent where they are either bred for driving or for meat and not handled enough or given enough in depth work.

I imagine your Haffie was fully occupied enough to be well behaved at their previous home, and now coming to a private home with a lot less work they have had the energy and time to devote to thinking up ways to be a devil.

It's unfortunate they look so pretty cos they really aren't ideal first horses or children's ponies in many cases, tho they are ideal for lady riders IMO.

I have a 17 hand IDxTB and a 14.2 Haflinger but was lucky enough to get a GB bred Haflinger well handled and bought as a youngster so broken in by me and handled firmly from the start, she is fantastic but so many others need lots of hard work to make up for not having that start in life.

 

[kat2290]

I wonder if being used in a trekking centre she has become accustomed to going out in groups? However if you say she's had 4 owners in 4 years she can't have been there for very long, it's not like that's all she's known for the last 10 years and now you're asking her to do something different.

If she is better in company that is probably the way to deal with it for now, obviously not ideal for you though having to arrange to have somebody to go out with. Do you have anybody who can go up with you and walk on foot? I would probably go out with company until she is consistently behaving and then when you get to that stage start introducing periods in the hack when it is just you two. Gradually building up the time until you can manage a full hack on your own.

Sounds so easy on paper and maybe it wouldn't work but that is probably what I would try. My knowledge is v limited though so feel free to ignore

 

[wakijaki]

Thanks for the replies.
The trekking center only used her last summer then she has been turned out for the past 6 to 8 months while they tried to sell her on. I'm guessing as they drove over 200 miles to go and collect her then they must have had issues with her otherwise why buy her and then turn her out. I spoke to one of the girls there afterwards and she said the mare was fine with her riding her but bucked her friend off twice in one session. Obviously that's not suitable for a trekking center so she had been turned out and left.
Things are improving as I couldn't pick her feet up at first without her fall over on top of me or kicking out but now she is fine.
Yes she is fine if she has someone to follow.
She is on a magnesium oxide powder... Similar to magic powder so don't know if I should try something different.
It's just so frustrating as if I get off and led her she will walk but I have dogs for that!

 

[wakijaki]

Should add that I got in touch with her owner before the trekking center and she said she sold her on as she was too quiet but also because she would buck in the school. She had her on magic powder to help her calm down. She only had her a year and before that she was in a novice home with 2 ladies who couldn't do a thing with her. All I know before that was she was bred by gypsies and broken to drive first then ride.
Her previous owner did lots of work with her as it took her an hour to get a bridle on her at first as she was so head shy. This comes and goes with me... When she is relaxed I can stroke her ears and when she isn't I can't go near them.
I don't know whether to change the calmer to maybe a moody mare one?

 

[applecart14]

If she was 'naughty' for the farrier and 'naughty' having her back checked I would suggest that there is an underlying cause. Did she do much work previous to you having her? It might be that you are doing more stuff with her than she is used to and she is resenting this as she is not fit enough to cope with the work, or she is finding it uncomfortable for some reason.

Horses don't turn nasty for no reason. She is trying to tell you something. At the moment she is whispering to you. Very soon she will be shouting at you. Eventually when horses are at the point of screaming for someone to listen they will do the most damage to their riders, due to the pain and resentment that has built up over the years.

Did the back lady have any qualifications? Was she an equine physio or a chiropractor? Did the saddler who checked your saddle have the proper qualifications? She has had a different farrier, and I am wondering if she has been shod very differently and therefore her feet are hurting her, but I know you said you have had them checked.

I do think you need to get her to trust you, and this is something that is better done on the ground, doing ground work, spending time with her, getting to know her, giving her a massage, taking her for a pick at grass, or spending ten mins with her in her stable or field. You need to build this trust in her, if it were you that was on your fourth home in four years think how despondent, and down you would feel.

When you approach her do so in a calm quiet manner, but don't keep saying "good girl, there's a good girl" etc, etc. This approach will make a horse extremely wary as you are implying that there is something to be wary of. Instead just walk into her box and don't look her in the eye and start grooming her as if its the most natural thing in the world. If she moves away from you then make sure you keep the pressure on, so to speak. If she threatens to bite you, tie her short. Keep the pressure on, don't stop doing something if she resents it because you are inadvertently giving her free rein adn saying to her 'ok you win, we won't do this if you don't want to'.

My horse will see me coming towards him in the field and even if he has his back to me, and I've turned him out five minutes before he will turn around and walk towards me, and will let me take his rug off or mess around in any other way and he wants to be in my company, its the nicest feeling in the world to be accepted and loved back by a horse.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

This is why I made a point of getting my Haff as a youngster, I was also very, very fortunate that he had been started properly by someone that knows the breed inside out so was taught manners.

Haffs are like toddlers, but crossed with the hyperactivity and learning capacity of a collie, constantly pushing boundaries and questioning your reasoning and they need constant stimulation from the beginning until they know and trust you. They are normally one person horses so if she has been passed from piller to post then this won't help. As a stereotype you either get a bucker or a bolter. A bucker is far easier to deal with!

I would stop the mag ox - this can make horses more excitable etc. if their magnesium levels are okay. It only works if the horse is deficient in magnesium. It might be worth changing to a moody mare supplement, but I would remove the apple and use fast fibre or similar. I would make sure her access to sugar in general is managed carefully.

It might be worth starting baby steps. If she tacks up okay with no trauma then go for a 5 min ride and get back before she takes the piddle so you have finished it, not her. If she strops while tacking up, persevere until done, then make a fuss, remove tack and either give her her feed, or some soaked hay or something to make it not seem so horrific.

And I am not normally an advocate of Natural Hormanship (parelli et al), but in your case I think it might be worth investing in a reputable trainer for a couple of sessions to get you started and then go from there. This will give her the mental stimulation to keep her sane and calmer.

And remember the age old rule, praise the good, ignore the bad!! If she plants, make her stand until she maks a move (she'll get bored), if she spins, keep spinning her until she decided going forwards is more exciting

 

[webble]

Just a thought and you might have already had it checked but are her hormone levels normal?

 

[HaffiesRock]

Hi OP, as a Haflinger owner all my adult life you have my full sympathy.

What I have found with the breed is it takes a long time to get a good horse. I have had my current one for just over a year and we have just reached the point where I can do what I like with him and trust him with my life. There have been many many time I'd have given him away for meat! He is now my dream horse, but only 4 months ago I was still ready to be rid of him and its only literally the last few weeks we have really clicked together.

We have been through so many ups and downs, and I honestly think you can get through everything and have a fabulous horse at the other end, but it will take a lot of time and effort and more than likely some tears.

If you can't put in whats needed 110% I would suggest you send her back and get something else. Haffies are unbelievable intelligent and will test and try you like you never thought possible, but they are also amazing and will do anything for you. If you are willing to keep her I am behind you 100% and will help you as much as you need. I don't know where you are based but I am always at the end of a PM or the phone if you want to message me. x

 

[applecart14]

If she plants, make her stand until she maks a move (she'll get bored), if she spins, keep spinning her until she decided going forwards is more exciting

Definetely agree with NLP about this! You have to use 'reverse phychology' against a horse and do things that will help you, but without the horse thinking you are picking a battle with it, i.e. I walk mine backwards if he refuses to go past something. He thinks he has 'won' as we are facing the way HE wants to go, even if we walk backwards away from it! Once he's past the scary thing I turn him round and move on forwards.

My friend had a horse who was like this and would plant on the way to his field. The one day I ended up walking him backwards almost the entire length of the field before his gateway in order to get him to go in the direction I wanted, but he got there in the end!

 

[dkwp]

My haffie's taken a long time to sort out. He's lovely natured but very sensitive to what he eats. For example, I tried him on a glucosamine supplement last winter and it made him as high as a kite. What I've found is
a) no hard feed, alfalfa or molasses. He just has a cupful of fast fibre twice a day to give him his supplements (and maybe a bit extra when it's very,very cold)
b) magnesium supplement. I use Nupafeed liquid, partly because it's very easily absorbed and partly because he hates powders. It's much more effective than magnesium oxide.
c) thiamine. I use tablets from Holland and Barratt. With this, he's no longer running on the edge of laminitis all the time and is much calmer (maybe because he's dealing with the sugar better).

He used to plant his feet when led but I found a dually halter sorted this out really well.
Riding has been a bigger problem. He would suddenly leap in the air and spin or buck which was a very effective way to get people off. I've just had an osteopath look at him and she's discovered a problem with in the sacro-iliac area which made him very tender. He got really stroppy when she pressed in the crucial area but relaxed brilliantly once she started treating him. This problem has made him tense all the time while he's ridden because of the pain and has given him sudden tweaks of extreme pain that cause the explosive behaviour. Apparently it's also the cause of him bucking, especially on transitions. She thinks it's caused by his basic conformation - short, curved back and big haffie belly which cause the same strain as very pregnant ladies get and that's aggravated by being ridden, especially by people who are too heavy or don't ride well. (He was on working livery at one stage.) The tension from the back pain caused him to tense his neck which in turn made his poll tender and got me looking for problems in the wrong place. He's responding well to treatment but, as he's 16 and I'm over 60, I've decided it's time we both retired from riding and concentrated on groundwork, games and generally having a good time without either of us getting hurt. Good luck with your haffie - they are a lovely breed but not as easy as they look.

 

[Anna*]

Just remembered this thread and was wondering how it turned out. OP, I hope you and your haffy are both well.

 

[wakijaki]

Just remembered this thread and was wondering how it turned out. OP, I hope you and your haffy are both well.

Hi Anna and everyone who replied to this thread before.
Well I still have the mare and although its been difficult and at times dangerous - we are slowly forming a great partnership and I actually love her to bits now!
I did try to send her back and was all set to take the seller to court under the sale of goods act to try to recover my money. I even took a 2 week break from the mare and just checked her over the fence everyday but didnt go near her while hoping that she seller would give in and come and collect her.
But two things happened - one was a very old friend of mine who I hadnt seen for 15 years has become a horse whisper of sorts and she offered to come out and work with Lolli, the mare. I agreed but by then i was so scared of her I said Im not going near her. Anyway she came out and spent a few hours with Lolli, getting her to come to her to be caught, getting her to move around and stand still, and also she got her tacked up by just taking her time with her.
She did say she had a terrible attitude and no respect and renamed her Pollard Pony after the little brittain character vicky pollard. However watching her work with her and that Lolli didnt hurt her or do anything bad gave me the courage to keep trying.
The other thing that happened was the flighty 2 year old filly was replaced with a quiet old gelding and the farmers daughter where she is kept moved back from norway and she has dealt with lots of these problems with her own horse so she has been on hand to help and guide me through the problems.
Im not saying its been easy and even this week i thought omg i would just love to have a normal horse! But i can now tack her up without her being tied up, mount her without her moving anywhere. Riding and the napping is still a major issue but yesterday we hacked out with friends to the beach and at one point she took the lead through the woods without being asked and we even had a canter on the beach without any bucking.
She still has moments where she says NO and she still turns fast as lightening and bolts off and bucks but these moments are rare. Im trying to keep her as soft and natural as possible, she is currently barefoot on the back and we ride bitless in the field. The aim is to get her completely bitless and barefoot and i think with our friends help we can do that.
I do a lot of groundwork with her and also lead her out in hand if we have no one to ride out with. I think she is beginning to realise that im not going to get mad at her or hurt her but i will ask her to do stuff for me and she needs to do it. I have learnt so much from her and she is actually a very loving pony under the Pollard attitude!
Im pleased to say we have had a happy outcome and i hope that with more work and trust building that the riding will get easier as my goal is to be able to safely ride her out just the two of us xx

 

[Anna*]

Your post has made my day! I'm so impressed that you've found a way through with her. I have a haffy and, once you've got them, they are unbeatable. My haffy was also difficult to bridle when I got her and she is now bitless (problem solved instantly!) and barefoot. I am so pleased and happy for you - what a fantastic result! Good luck on the rest of your journey with Lolli.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

OP I am full of admiration for your tenacity and bravery and have a funny feeling that you and Lolli will turn into a mega partnership given more time and work.

And the feeling of pride if that does happen will be so much the sweeter and your bond so much the deeper.

Good for you !!!!!

 

[Laddy]

Lovely update, good luck Wakijaki, I'm sure you will form a lovely trusting partnership which will mean so much because of the effort you have put into it.

 

[BayLady]

I'm really pleased that things are turning around for you and your mare.

 

[Charlotte&&Prince]

I had a little haflinger mare who was EXACTLY like this, I had her professionally schooled by my yard owner who trains race horses. Within 2 weeks her and her jockeys had her hacking alone And going around the school. When I first got her she wouldn't even getter 1/4 way around the school without dropping her shoulder, spinning and backing up. Actually exactly like her.
Schooling by someone who's more confident might be the way to go, I know it's expensive but it worked wonders.

 

[wakijaki]

Schooling by someone who's more confident might be the way to go, I know it's expensive but it worked wonders.

Yep i agree but its a case if who to trust? I would love to send her somewhere or have someone come to work with her on the riding issues as i am a rubbish rider and have been lucky so far that the horses I have ridden where pretty much push button and with none of this attitude towards being ridden. I find her very testing and very very strong when i ride but I am trying to build on that with the ground work as she is the same then - pushy and bargy and then just stops and refuses to move.
If i knew someone who would work with her in the saddle then i would pay for that as i think it would make a massive difference...however with me having put so much work and built so much trust - I would be unwilling to send her away because i wouldnt want her to revert to how she was. I dont want someone to get on her and make her go as i know the key somehow lies in making her want to....but thats the hard part when she is so stubborn and stroppy!

 

[wakijaki]

massive thank you to all the lovely comments!
I do sometimes have days where i think - why am i still doing this?! But the progress is there and every little step she does take means the world to me as I have worked so hard on it.
She is just like a massive thelwell pony from the books i used to have as a child so most days i just have to laugh at her tantrums, but they are getting few and far between and when i go to see her and lifts her head up and comes trotting over to me i know i must be doing something right with her as none of my friends get that greeting from their horses! xx