help youngster being a git

[Queenbee]

hi all just wanting to hear a few suggestions and ideas please. My youngster is 30 months old but a git to lead, he has no respect for personal space and gets hair brained excited at the entrance to his stable block. i need to find a way of getting through that thick skull of his as normal methods of digging my elbow into him when he walks into me are not working. he is also not good at leading into field he just stands at the entrance like a muppet and i have to drag him in there! i can get him more responsive by carrying a lunge whip he walks ok then and backs off although still pig ignorant on 2 extremes at yard and field. his feed is in his stable for when he walks in, now i understand this may be adding to the behaviour at the yard but its something he needs to get used to... i expect to have a well mannered horse! positive reinforcement with treat is a no, it would not take much for him to bite. i feel i will have to use a combination of tactic to sort him out but just want any suggestions so i have a full arsenal of weapons to crack my great big lummox of a boy!
mince pies and mulled wine for reading

 

[kittykatcat]

Sounds like he would benefit from some natural horse type ground work...not suggesting you get all carrot-sticked up to the max, but it's amazing how much better 'difficult' horses can be when you start talking a language they understand.....and being consistant....and not getting 'emotional' about it!

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

I have had moments with my cob when she thought it was acceptable to barge around, try and walk through me etc

I lead her in a dually headcollar and a long lead rope so i have a chance of getting her off babalance in the event dhe decides to bog off - thankfully a rare event these days - but I bascially spent a bit of time in the school practising the basic lessons from Kelly Marks Perfect Manners book - made all the difference as you learn to move them around and they learn to move around and respect your space and requests without it becoming a battle I was never going to win against a stubborn strong cob who is also to clever for her own good but she is also smart enough to learn quickly

 

[AshTay]

Is it not an option to remove the feed from the stable for now so you can get on top of his behavior one step at a time rather than creating a battle that you don't need to have?

I know you said that treats aren't an option but I've actually found that clicker training with treats has actually enabled me to teach my boy not to bite for treats. I never treat him "randomly", only when doing the training and he knows he won't get the treat if he bullies me for it. This has translated into better behavior when I turn him out as he expects a treat but picked up very quickly that he wouldn't get anything other than a tap on the nose if he frisks me so he now moves his nose away from me and "waits" for it.

I honestly have found that the clicker has given me a way to communicate with my boy. It's like he needs things to be black and white and it helps to pinpoint the moment he behaves and he's learned very quickly what's acceptable and what isn't.

I've also noticed that he's also become very easy to teach general good behavior to even without using the clicker. For example, standing still and waiting for me to undo his neck rug and remove his headcollar before he starts sniffing around for hay (i never take him into a stable with hay or food already in it - too much temptation; why set them up to fail?!).

 

[dotty1]

I agree with Tinselunicorn about using a dually halter.
My four yearold was a cow to load, planting, rushing back, rearing so I gave in and paid out £45 for one. The difference was amazing, she very quickly gave up all the naughtiness and within 10 mins she was leading through the trailer as thoug she had been doing it for ages - all on a loose lead rein.
I also used it when the saddle fitter came as she is fidgety and she stood like a rock so to me it was a good £45 spent and it certainly helps with the manners.

 

[Polotash]

First, use a pressure halter, I use an old fashioned rope halter on all my babies, but a Dually/ Monty Roberts etc are all fine, just more expensive!

Now grab a clicker, some treats and a schooling stick... go in the school/ yard/ field and teach him simple manners, so you tug the halter and say "walk on", he walks forward to you, you say "staaaand", then you click and he gets a treat. Repeat, repeat repeat. Now add in "back" and "over" commands using the schooling stick to tap.

He has to learn to concentrate on YOU, not on what ever is going on. By constantly giving him commands you are "playing" with him while you teach him, and it's worth his while to get the click/ treat. Now get him following you, so you walk, turn, turn, walk, stop, and he should shadow - they like playing this game once they "get it"!

This should all be done when they are halter broken but it's never too late to teach them manners!

Once he is familiar with the commands and protocol you expect from him you add them into every day life, so "back" when you open to stable door to go in, "stand" when you open stable door (he does not barge out!) and "walk on" when you allow him out of the stable, "over" when you do rugs etc.

 

[CBFan]

Without knowing exactly what he is doing it is hard to advise you on what to do. However start by removing all food from his stable. One of the first rules I teach a new horse regardless of age is that they step back from the door when food is bought to them. it is such a valuable lesson.

How do you lead him? If he is unmanageable in a normal headcollar, get a control one. Duallys are good but make sure it fits well as I find they can move about on their heads and knock them in the eye. you will see all proffessional users of them having to adjust them between exercises.

On walking into your stable block, I'd ask for a halt. if you don't get it, circle him away from you. ask again, repeat as necesary.

That said, I think you'd benefit from doing some groundwork before you get yourself in this situation. just walk him about the yard or in the school and make sure he stops when you stop and goes when you say go. if he walks past you or barges.. he feels the effect on the halter. Get 'Perfect Manners' by kelly marks and read it front to back and again! It really makes so much sense.

Good luck!

 

[Persephone]

As I understand it it's better to have the feed already in the stable so the horse goes in and "finds" it. I find that taking the feed in after leads to barging and door kicking.

But then my horse is fairly polite and doesn't have breakfast so perhaps I am just lucky.

I take my filly in so that she walks past the feed, turns away from it with me so I can take her headcollar off with out the danger of hindlegs in the wrong place. She doesn't bolt for it.

Perhaps it's a matter of routine that your horse needs?

 

[Queenbee]

my horses have a set routine, they don't get fed breakfast, just the tea, as they still have ample grazing in the field. They are turned out separately and were are led in together with someone else leading Eb's so I can concentrate on the 'git' He actually behaves very well if the feed is brought to him, but I expect him to be able to walk into a stable with the feed on the floor, i will not pander to a horse. I am firm, consistent and respectful of his age, but he is not getting the 'prod prod prod' message, in general he leads like a dream, but there are set areas where he goes from one extreme to another. I am absolutely no novice and have taught many a horse to lead but he is just such a thick skinned buffoon at the moment, he had better manners when he was on box rest 24/7 He just has absolutely no focus and as a baby is very selective about what he will and won't focus on, he will now do 5 mins lunging work and love it and loves his long reining, but just can't seem to focus for long on the lead rope. TBH, I am grateful for your suggestions but I am not planning to clicker train my horse, and we do do groundwork, I had considered a pressure halter, as I often used to pop the rope over his poll as for the 'pressure effect'.

Anyway, last night we did lots of 'circling by the stable entrance' and then I just stood there in the stable with him on the lead having a temper tantrum until he quietened down, then I took his head collar off while he was nice and quiet and gave him a pat and let him go to his feed. Today we did the same but with the chiffney on, and whilst he was noticeably calmer anyway and we did walk 2 steps... halt, walk 2 steps... halt... all the way through the yard (I was pretty pleased with him) he still behaved like a little stropster in his stable, so we did exactly what we did yesterday, waited for calmness to descend and patted him on the neck and let him go. He is still a problem at the gateway to the field though, it is so hard to get him in the field! There are no obstructions, a wide enough gateway, but I think what I will do is work on the other things first and once they are nailed, then look at fixing this issue to.

 

[Goldenstar]

Sorry nothing to add but I am smiling ,you reminded me why I stopped breeding my own !!!!

 

[Queenbee]

yes I always laugh when people look at the little monsters and call them 'cute' LOL I'm used to being firm but kind, and sometimes thinking outside the box to get the desired outcome, but he has a brain of sawdust at the moment... so charlie chiffney has come out to play... won't take much doing to straighten him out with that, he seems to change the second its in LOL Plus I haven't had a gelding in over 10 years... had forgotten that they aren't the greatest thinkers! x

 

[Queenbee]

I suppose I was just having a bit of a head-desk moment earlier.. thanks for all your advice though

 

[Bikerchickone]

Just a thought but is there any grass in your field? Could be that he's barging to get to his food because he's hungry and not wanting to go in the field because he knows there's nothing out there for him? Not saying he should be allowed to get away with bad manners but if there's a reason behind it maybe it would be easier to put hay out in the field and he won't come in starving. I only suggest this because my youngster (4 now) was similar recently until we moved her into a rested field. Good luck sorting him out.

 

[TigerTail]

Why not get Kelly Marks book on Perfect Manners, lots of ideas for groundwork and the thoughts behind why the horse is behaving as he does. http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/books/202-kelly-marks-perfect-manners.html

Most of bad behaviour it taught unwittingly by us the handlers, whether its be the routine we are in because of work/family commitments etc but they do learn by us and by being allowed to repeat the same behaviour again and again.

NB I wouldnt every use a chiffney or any other bit on a youngster to teach 'manners' I want my horses to think of the bit as a means of communication in a good way, and to have soft mouths when ridden. Ruining it on the ground with babyness is silly.

 

[Artax]

Just be patient and consistent. Agree with poster who said keep to a routine and not introduce things 'as & when' per se.

You've done marvels already teaching to load and hack out etc.

Keep things simple.

 

[Persephone]

It really sounds like you have it all in hand OP. I am 5' and the filly is at least 16hh and rising 3 y/o. If she sticks her head in the air and gets locked on to something other than me there is not much I can do about it!

She has her moments, it would be too good to be true if she didn't. Luckily not often.

When I first got her she used to get "stuck" about going through gates. She very quickly learned the "gate quickstep" and "back" though! Sounds like your boy doesn't have his full attention on you at the moment, trick is finding out why.

Or perhaps he is one of those horses that is just a pig on the ground no matter what you do!

 

[CBFan]

By the sounds of it you have it sorted. I know how frustrating it is to have a youngster go from being a doddle to being a git - my 17hh 4 year old recently had a 'git' phase resulting in me having to lead him with a bit in his mouth - just a loosering snaffle - haven't resorted to charlie chifney yet, but the dually was absolutely useless for this 'git phase'. :$

I think there's arguments for and against both ways of feeding and no right or wrong way and I certainly wouldn't call changing the way you do things 'pandering' to the horse. It's about being sensible. 'pandering' to the horse would be letting your horse stop to eat grass after he has dragged you across the yard to it, letting your horse stop work when he naps to the school gate etc. a change of routine does them no harm. Particularly when they are young. I merely sugested you remove the food from his stable so that it removed one of the possible causes of his behaviour... even if it was only on a temporary basis.

My youngster has NEVER banged the door for his feed. He is one of the only horses on the yard that doesn't get fed at the same time as the rest of the yard and he is actually the quietest horse on the yard while others are banging and screaming for their breakfasts as soon as the first person turns up in the morning... they soon shut up when they realise it's me and they aren't going to get fed! (before anyone has a go - this isn't a yard rule - it is something that another livery took upon herself to set up and I'm buggered if I'm feeding 30 horses when she doesn't turn up in the mornings!!!)

 

[AengusOg]

You say you 'expect' lots from your horse, but horses have to be trained to behave themselves.

It sounds as if you and he do a lot of fighting, and he has learned how weak you are. I would recommend a pressure halter if you know how to use one. Remember, it is a training aid, not a means of restraint.

 

[Queenbee]

Just a thought but is there any grass in your field? Could be that he's barging to get to his food because he's hungry and not wanting to go in the field because he knows there's nothing out there for him? Not saying he should be allowed to get away with bad manners but if there's a reason behind it maybe it would be easier to put hay out in the field and he won't come in starving. I only suggest this because my youngster (4 now) was similar recently until we moved her into a rested field. Good luck sorting him out.

nah, he is just a glutton There is plenty of grass in the field, more so than normal for this time of year I actually popped hay out for them a couple of weeks ago and they just ignored it.

Why not get Kelly Marks book on Perfect Manners, lots of ideas for groundwork and the thoughts behind why the horse is behaving as he does. http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/books/202-kelly-marks-perfect-manners.html

Most of bad behaviour it taught unwittingly by us the handlers, whether its be the routine we are in because of work/family commitments etc but they do learn by us and by being allowed to repeat the same behaviour again and again.

NB I wouldnt every use a chiffney or any other bit on a youngster to teach 'manners' I want my horses to think of the bit as a means of communication in a good way, and to have soft mouths when ridden. Ruining it on the ground with babyness is silly.

I may well get that book, it seems that a lot of people recommend it and having seen and watched KM, I like her practices, to be honest, he is quite an intelligent little chap, and in the past has taken to everything really easily. You may not ever use a chiffney on a youngster, but I have no problem with using it in this case. I would rather get a clear 'do not mess with me' message through that he understands. I have probably used it a total of 7 times since I had him, once yesterday and last year when he was waiting to be gelded. Used properly there is no reason why this should cause him to have a hard mouth and be ruined. I am very gentle with the use of it, and it only comes into action if he is not listening to me. Having used both poll pressure and pressure on the nose to very little effect with this chap, I have assessed that this will be the most effective way with this horse.

It really sounds like you have it all in hand OP. I am 5' and the filly is at least 16hh and rising 3 y/o. If she sticks her head in the air and gets locked on to something other than me there is not much I can do about it!

She has her moments, it would be too good to be true if she didn't. Luckily not often.

When I first got her she used to get "stuck" about going through gates. She very quickly learned the "gate quickstep" and "back" though! Sounds like your boy doesn't have his full attention on you at the moment, trick is finding out why.

Or perhaps he is one of those horses that is just a pig on the ground no matter what you do!

LOL, I am sure he will get there...

You say you 'expect' lots from your horse, but horses have to be trained to behave themselves.

It sounds as if you and he do a lot of fighting, and he has learned how weak you are. I would recommend a pressure halter if you know how to use one. Remember, it is a training aid, not a means of restraint.

I expect a horse to use its 'brain' to work out how to behave the way I expect (with clear guidance) and not its 'brawn' to behave the way it wants to. I have a pretty good level of experience in this area. Yes perhaps it is down to me that he is being like this, but purely because I have tried the 'normal' methods that I would use with him to very little effect. So yes, if by fighting you mean I have been asking/telling and he has been ignoring... you are right. As I have said... Poll and nose pressure... is like hitting a brick with a sponge with him. So I have gone for what I know will work.


I think used correctly the chiffney can also be viewed as a training aid using it with force is completely incorrect, and believe me it is not something I use lightly. This is how we do it.

Head down towards grass... voice command then slight pressure.
Head up in air... voice command then slight pressure.
Walking into mummy... voice command then slight pressure.
trying to drag mummy into the stable block... voice command then slight pressure.
trying to charge to food.... voice command then slight pressure.

Pressure off, pat and praise when walking nicely when asked or when standing nicely when asked

Anyhow:
Today... much improvement.... he walked nicely to the field on a relaxed rein... respectful of my space he did not walk into me on the way from the field.... well he thought about it once but listened to my 'masterful voice' He did stop half way there but he kept his head level, he had a pat and encouragement then a slight ask with the leadrope to which he responded instantly... cue another pat and praise. The same happened at the entrance to the field... he went in much quicker today but at a different angle than I normally ask him to, he seemed more comfortable with that so I am going to change the way the gate opens to make it easier for him to walk in where he feels most comfy. All this improvement from one session with the chiffney yesterday (only a normal headcollar and leadrope today. He will have the chiffney on for at least another couple of 'walking in sessions' because he is still not fully focused... but mucho improvement.

 

[AengusOg]

I expect a horse to use its 'brain' to work out how to behave the way I expect (with clear guidance) and not its 'brawn' to behave the way it wants to. I have a pretty good level of experience in this area. Yes perhaps it is down to me that he is being like this, but purely because I have tried the 'normal' methods that I would use with him to very little effect. So yes, if by fighting you mean I have been asking/telling and he has been ignoring... you are right. As I have said... Poll and nose pressure... is like hitting a brick with a sponge with him. So I have gone for what I know will work.

With respect, if your horse is unable to use his brain to work out the way you expect him to behave, then your 'clear guidance' is clearly not clear enough. In that case it would be down to you that the horse is he way he is. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the use of 'normal' methods having little effect...what do you consider normal methods?

Horses which use 'brawn' have not been allowed to learn how to yield to pressure. A horse which pulls for grass, walks into its handler, and drags people around, has learned to use its strength against a handler who has tried to use restraint to control.

Poll and nose pressure, along with timely release and consistency of handling, work well in helping horses to become complant and reliably handleable. With correct use of pressure and release, the horse learns that it has a choice between the feel of pressure and being free of it.

However, misuse of pressure, and badly-timed release, can lead to resistance in the horse, and this will often cause horses to use the 'brawn' of which you speak. If you have been asking/telling and he has been ignoring, then you have to look at where you can improve your technique so that you can avoid causing resistance in your horse.

I suppose it could be argued that the chifney, correctly use by good hands, works on the principles of pressure and release, that the horse learns to avoid the pressure by behaving himself. Horses worked in a chifney can become reliable to handle, but I wonder if that is because they know the painful consequences if they don't. I consider the pressure halter a more humane and long-term-effective training aid, principally because there is no pain involved.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

You seem to have a few things going on. You don't want to pander to your horse and yet you expect perfect manners. Horses are pretty basic creatures ruled by their stomachs most of the time. Personally I don't put food in their stables for coming in but it's a personal choice. They have hay and water when they come in and feed is a half an hour later. I do not have door bangers. If anyone has ever attempted this trick for attention then a brush is winged at your door.

Other posters here have given you good advice with regards to pressure halters. Everyday has to be the same and consistent.

Don't use size as an excuse. I'm 5ft and weigh 100 pds. I do nothing on strength and I've bred most of what I own, Warmbloods and TB's. Your "git" will be fine eventually. I know you want the perfect horse but just relax a little, keep it simple, and stay consistent. Nothing like your own horses to make you feel like a failure! LOL! But your not, you want the perfect horse like everyone. I've realised perfect is different for each of mine at different stages in their life. Good luck.

Terri