Herbal feeders and basic DIY supplements!

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Elsiejay

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Is there anyone out there with a wealth of knowledge on adding natural herbs/oils to feeds? I’ve been given a few pieces of advice, but on further Googling have just given myself a headache with various suggestions being condemned elsewhere.

The situation: 17.3hh IDX, 16yrs. By no means high mileage but has lived a very active life, hunting and hacking. Has very mild navicular changes which *touch wood* have never caused lameness, and we’re doing our damnedest to keep it that way. He’s recently tweaked a hip in the field, seen an osteo and is back on track but it’s just made me think about giving him a little help on the joint front.

Currently fed:

Plenty of hay

Twice daily feeds consisting of:
1kg Fast Fibre
1kg Bailey’s No4 Topline Conditioning Cubes
1 level Stubb’s scoop of big standard, original chaff.


Looking to replace above chaff with lower sugar alternative (to help feet), perhaps Molichaff Herbal or Original. Also to introduce a balancer, too - just to try and ensure he’s getting the most out of what he’s being fed, and that it’s not just going straight through him.
Looking additionally to add, as per advice: an oil. Based on research, I’m looking for something with a higher Omega-3:Omega-6 ratio. Linseed/flaxseed is what I’ve heard is best, though olive oil was recommended by someone with a horse with osteoarthritis?
Have been advised that I can buy pure MSM from a website which apparently is deemed safe for human consumption, so of a decent quality.

I have queries and would be more than grateful for any advise or tips on the following...
Recommendations for a quality, low-sugar oat straw chaff
Advice on quantities of linseed/other oil and MSM to start feeding, bearing in mind feeds stated above
Is there an independent nutrition service? Does this exist?! Reluctant to go to one specific feed advisors as their knowledge will be based around their brand only


Apologies for long post, but any contribution gratefully received!
 
The only thing I can help with is an oat straw chaff recommendation.
Honeychop do a plain oat straw chaff with no additives but make sure you get the plain one, they do a molasses version and the packaging is similar on both.
 
Why are you planning on giving a straw chaff when he is on conditioning feeds, it seems to be a contradiction, I agree with cutting out the molassed chaff but unless he is inclined to bolt his feed I wouldn't waste my money or his energy on something that serves little purpose and adds nothing to his diet.
He is getting plenty of fibre from having ad lib hay and the fast fibre although even that seems a bit pointless if you want more condition, it would be far more simple to cut out one of the compound feeds, add a balanced supplement and linseed and have a bit more control over what he gets, mixing several compound feeds will mean the vits/ mins become unbalanced, giving a low energy/ low sugar/ starch at the same time as a high energy/ sugar/ starch seems counterproductive.
 
Yup. I'd cut all of that out. I'd feed agrobs museli and extra linseed. Lots of people feed ordinary grass nuts with no issues if you wanted slightly cheaper. For something on Ad lib hay and reasonable grazing then you can usually get away with a cheaper balancer. Mine gets pro mineral from Progressive Earth. It works out about £10 a month and covers the basics. Id feed 50gms of salt a day as well, more if he was sweating a lot.

Joint supplements are tricky. I decided against MSM/chondrition etc and have gone for a herbal mix. Its got devils claw, celery seeds and other herbs that have an anti inflammatory and/or pain killing effect. Mine looks incredibly supple and free on it, but its hard to draw conclusions from a biased sample of one! I add bosweilla and a reasonably high dose of vitamin e to it through the winter and mix it together with the balancer so its just one thing to add a day.
 
be positive said:
Why are you planning on giving a straw chaff when he is on conditioning feeds, it seems to be a contradiction, I agree with cutting out the molassed chaff but unless he is inclined to bolt his feed I wouldn't waste my money or his energy on something that serves little purpose and adds nothing to his diet.
He is getting plenty of fibre from having ad lib hay and the fast fibre although even that seems a bit pointless if you want more condition, it would be far more simple to cut out one of the compound feeds, add a balanced supplement and linseed and have a bit more control over what he gets, mixing several compound feeds will mean the vits/ mins become unbalanced, giving a low energy/ low sugar/ starch at the same time as a high energy/ sugar/ starch seems counterproductive.
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Hi be positive. Whilst he’s on the Bailey’s through winter to keep some weight on, he does like a big feed and does have a slight tendency to bolt both hard feed and hay. Whilst I don’t want him dropping off too much in winter, the Fast Fibre and chaff are mostly a tummy filler. I don’t claim to be an expert, hence I’m throwing out some feelers for feed advice. So as per your post above, what would your suggestion be?
 
Leo Walker said:
Yup. I'd cut all of that out. I'd feed agrobs museli and extra linseed. Lots of people feed ordinary grass nuts with no issues if you wanted slightly cheaper. For something on Ad lib hay and reasonable grazing then you can usually get away with a cheaper balancer. Mine gets pro mineral from Progressive Earth. It works out about £10 a month and covers the basics. Id feed 50gms of salt a day as well, more if he was sweating a lot.

Joint supplements are tricky. I decided against MSM/chondrition etc and have gone for a herbal mix. Its got devils claw, celery seeds and other herbs that have an anti inflammatory and/or pain killing effect. Mine looks incredibly supple and free on it, but its hard to draw conclusions from a biased sample of one! I add bosweilla and a reasonably high dose of vitamin e to it through the winter and mix it together with the balancer so its just one thing to add a day.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the above. I’ve actually got a good friend who feeds Agrobs muesli, but her gang literally have a handful with some total eclipse. They’re all very good doers - I don’t know if mine would get “enough” from that? He’s not worked heavily, please do educate me but that seems a lot of salt?!
Precisely the reason I was looking at introducing linseed oil - supposed to have great anti inflammatory purposes. I’m going to try and steer clear of Devil’s Claw for a little bit, which I’ve been advised by friends who use it a lot that it’s like nature’s Bute. I don’t want to mask anything that might be going on, just give the big guy a bit of help with those joints if they’re starting to creak.
 
Yes, there are independent nutritionists out there (e.g. http://www.equinenutritionist.co.uk/) who can give you advice tailored to your horse, without trying to sell you any particular brand. It might be a good idea to get some professional input if you're concerned about the diet. On a forum, you'll get many different opinions which don't necessarily all go together or make sense. FWIW, here are my two cents:

If your horse's condition is just right on what you feed at the moment, then I don't think it's likely he'll get enough calories if you fed him just hay, a grass chaff (like Agrobs) and a balancer. If you want to replace some of the feeds you are currently using, try and aim to supply the same amount of calories as presently (which I figure comes to about 25MJ) with your bucket feed.
What are the recommended feed amounts for the cubes and fast fibre? Both are feeds fortified with vits and minerals. If you feed the full recommended amount you shouldn't need an additional balancer. If you feed only part of the recommended amount (let's say half), then you might only have to top up with half the recommended amount of a balancer to get the full daily dose.

Not all Mollichaff is "full of sugar". Check your facts, people! Mollichaff offers a range of chaffs (http://www.horsehageforage.co.uk/WP/?page_id=108), and the HoofKind version for example has <10% sugar+starch (the Calmer version is not much higher). Just read the labels/look up the product on the web and choose one with lower sugar and starch levels.

It is true though that the Baileys cubes are likely to be pretty high in starch (thought I can't find the % on their webpage), so choosing a low sugar+starch chaff while keeping the cubes would probably not make a huge difference. The thing is, starch provides concentrated energy. If you don't want something with high starch levels, the alternative is something with higher oil levels.
Linseed (micronised meal) is a great option, because it is very high in energy (20MJ/kg, as opposed to 13.5MJ/kg from the cubes), so you could provide the same amount of calories from about 675g of linseed (instead of 1kg cubes). Linseed is also high in protein, so you'd provide quality protein, just as the cubes do (actually, more). I'd feed meal rather than oil, because even though the oil also contains those omega 3 fatty acids, you wouldn't get the benefit of the extra protein, and the oil goes rancid pretty quickly unless you store it chilled and in the dark. The omega 3s can have an anti-inflammatory action, which may help with joint issues.

As for joint supplements, there is some evidence they work, but it's not super convincing. The message I take away from the research I've read is that if you used them, use a product with a high dose, else you're just wasting your money. Here are two discussions (note, the first one is selling his own supplements, so take that into consideration):
http://davidmarlin.co.uk/portfolio/...tific-evidence-is-there-to-support-their-use/
https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2017/05/15/can-we-prevent-arthritis/
 
I use a grass chaff as a feed base (D&H Just Grass at the moment) which supplies energy and calories as well as just fibre...

Could you look at something like this.

I then top up with Fast Fibre and a high fibre cube, linseed and oil would be the next step if I had a poor doer.

I do fed devils claw to an elderly stiff pony, but I can see why you don't wait to consider it yet.

Fiona
 
Fiona said:
I use a grass chaff as a feed base (D&H Just Grass at the moment) which supplies energy and calories as well as just fibre...

Could you look at something like this.

I then top up with Fast Fibre and a high fibre cube, linseed and oil would be the next step if I had a poor doer.

I do fed devils claw to an elderly stiff pony, but I can see why you don't wait to consider it yet.

Fiona
Click to expand...

Hi Fiona, thanks for your comment. Good shout on the grass chaff - will certainly look into it. In which form would you be looking at introducing the linseed? Which oil would you recommend? I know many people who either take devil&#8217;s claw themselves or feed to their horses, it works wonders. If and when the time comes I&#8217;ll certainly be looking at using it.

When I first got him, he was fed Calm & Condition through the winter which ironically just seemed to blow his brains and didn&#8217;t actually add much in the way of condition. We changed him onto the Bailey&#8217;s, which soon proved to suit him much better. I suppose I&#8217;ve been guilty of just thinking &#8220;if it ain&#8217;t broke&#8221;, but now I&#8217;m wanting to do a bit more for him.
 
We were feeding linseed oil last winter, as we had a local supplier so it was convenient. Otherwise I'd get it from Simple Systems which though more expensive is the only brand easily available here in NI. There are loads more manufacturers on mainland though. Charnwood rings a bell.....

I can definitely recommend devils claw when the time comes, but best to hold off until you really need it.....

Fiona
 
I feed micronised linseed - my local feed store stock the Pure Feeds one, but I think they are all made by 1 company with different branding. I find it more palatable for the horse that gets it than oil. A bag goes a long way so prob worth a try.
 
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