Herd hierarchy question

[Slave2Magic]

I have a 14 year old arab mare who has always been quite high up in the pecking order. She isn't overly dominant but will move others about in a quiet manner. Since being with my very large 3 year old and another 2 year old she seems to have lost her dominance? She backs down to my 3 year old and he moves her around. I was always led to believe that a mare would be in charge?

 

[fburton]

Depends what you mean by "in charge". The most dominant horse, the one that displaces all the others (assuming a linear hierarchy, which isn't always the case), may not be the one who others follow and who tends to make the decisions about where the herd goes. So your mare may still "lead" while deferring to a more pushy individual.

 

[Wagtail]

In all my years with horses I have found that the most bossy, dominant horses have always been geldings. Mares are usually middle to bottom ranking. There has only been one exception to this, my friend's mare who was boss no matter what she was put in with, but never nasty. I very good leader.

My three year old filly is boss of her two year old companion though. Even though he is around six inches bigger than her. I expect that is an age thing.

 

[Auslander]

Alf is boss horse in my herd (2 geldings and one mare) He's pretty benign most of the time, but they both defer to him, and he will not tolerate any scrapping in the ranks. Lola hates Spike, and will fly at him and sink her teeth into him at any opportunity - but if Alf catches her doing it, she's in deep trouble!

 

[Slave2Magic]

So is it purely down to size? My 3 year old is 17 hands. I assumed that an older horse of either sex would be dominant?

 

[fburton]

Dominance is down to pushiness and the amount of aggressive drive that a horse is willing to exercise in order to get what she or he wants - typically, but not always, food. Size does not appear to be a deciding factor, though you'd think it would be. Dominance is quite different from leadership, which is why I am reluctant to equate dominance with being "in charge".

Age is a factor because mares are naturally dominant relative to their foals. Dominance is also a trait that appears to be passed on from mares to offspring, via a genetic predisposition to aggression/pushiness and/or learned socially. However, dominance relations can change over time even between parents and offspring.

 

[criso]

It can also be quite fluid, in one situation one of mine Frankie would back down to the other gelding he was with when it came to food but the mare that was turned out with them was 'his' and the other gelding backed down.

Now with my youngster he'll let Tigger get away with a lot and move away from him; however when there is anything dangerous or suspicious, Frankie is the one who decides when it is dangerous, when to investigate and when it is safe and Tigger follows him and defers to his decisions.

 

[cobgoblin]

It's definitely not size or age, nor is the pushiest horse necessarily the leader. It seems to be the brightest or the bravest that leads. At the moment we have three horses, two are very large but a bit mentally challenged and one is much smaller but he's the leader. One of the larger ones will have a go at being pushy but is always outwitted by the smaller one. If there is a 'threat' in the field, such as a paper bag, the little one will park the other two and go off and investigate. The larger horses are quite happy for him to do this. If the threat cannot be sorted or deemed harmless, he will bring them all up to the gate so that I can sort the problem out whilst they are safely in their stables. Not daft this little chap!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

hierarchy is fluid and not linear-its alot more complicated than people think.

 

[Princess Rosie]

I agree that it is more complicated than we think. We have a herd of 6, 1 mare and 5 geldings. They are all "bottom of the herd" type horses and non aggressive. My mare is 15hh the herd leader and is a very passive leader and the geldings (including a 17.1hh WB) all adhere to whatever she wants. She is a very green horse and a rescue and was feral until around 14 months ago and is far from brave.

Interesting thread. x

 

[lelly]

My herd of three doesn't seem to have a leader. The old shetland mare is boss of the old shetland gelding and the two year old cob is boss of the shetland mare but the shetland gelding is boss of the two year old.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

My herd of three doesn't seem to have a leader. The old shetland mare is boss of the old shetland gelding and the two year old cob is boss of the shetland mare but the shetland gelding is boss of the two year old.

exactly not linear.

I always thought my old lusitano was the 'boss', until I started studying behaviour. I realised then that the small, old pony-the one that was doing the play fighting and shouting, was the one initiating rolling (and getting one in after everyone else had), drinking, moving around the pasture etc. Herd dynamics change as soon as you take one out of the field-and when you put them back in again-hence problems at some livery yards when this isnt taken into account when planning turnout.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Its nothing to do with size or sex my smaller gelding is the boss over my big mare always has been, and everywhere I have kept him his been the boss, most horses tend to get very attached to him even though he can be a bossy little rat bag to them, I also agree its to do with who the other horses feel they can depend on and trust to lead so the field bully will never be the leader, my gelding is one of the cleverest horses I have ever known, and I know if there were a horse eating dragon he would probably be one of the only horses to survive, he has amazing self preservation and he is quite brave even when I know he feels scared.

We have so many rabbit holes on many of our farm tracks, the field at the back of me has some huge ones and last winter I tried filling them in as they were all along the small gap I have to ride along, so I got some bricks and some mud and filled them in as much as I could, he knew they were still there and would rather walk on the plough than risk putting his feet where the holes were, my mare would just walk straight over them without a thought and after about a week they all caved in anyway and I was left with massive great holes again.

 

[fburton]

My herd of three doesn't seem to have a leader. The old shetland mare is boss of the old shetland gelding and the two year old cob is boss of the shetland mare but the shetland gelding is boss of the two year old.

Doesn't it depend what one means by "leader"? A horse doesn't need to be pushy to be leader - the horse that others follow - and a leader doesn't need to be bossy to be effective.

 

[rara007]

I have to admit our gelding only herds are impacted by size, we have a big herd of boys, 3 14hh, about 4 or 5 12hh and a shetland. The shetland is without fail the bottom, though was even in a shetland herd, the 12hhers are rough with each other (a number late cut and have covered and the others are characters) but they all back down to the 14hhers. They tend to play fight with their own size too. My old horse who was only 4 but pushing on for 17hh really didn't want to be the boss, but none of the littlies would push it! A 12hh (late cut, thinks a lot of himself) did attack him round the throat quite badly as the horse had absolutely no inclination to tell him to stop, yet if he so much as put his ears back the ponies went running.

Our other herd (2 boys 2 girls) the littlest, oldest mare is the boss (they're a matched team so v similar size ), the two geldings are very equal and the youngest mare is the bottom.

The 12hher that got the horse used to be out with an 11.1 and they were totally coltish, fighting all the time. We couldn't put him into the big herd for a while as he kept attacking things, yet now he's happily in the middle of the pecking order having been put with some non-reactive but bigger ponies who just roll their eyes and treat him a bit like a youngster that needs keeping in place if he forgets he's middle of the order.

 

[leggs]

It's definitely not size or age, nor is the pushiest horse necessarily the leader. It seems to be the brightest or the bravest that leads. At the moment we have three horses, two are very large but a bit mentally challenged and one is much smaller but he's the leader. !

the mentally challenged part cracked me up
A true alpha mare will be the boss of anything, anywhere but....we have horses because we buy them, we throw them in a fenced field but never in the same way a herd would form in the wild. They are there because we put them together to form a group rather than a herd. In the wild, young stallions would be forced to leave the herd, form batchelor groups and all of that. So in our situation the stronger one would take the lead, not every mare is an alpha mare.

I have had the pleasure (and pain) of owning a true alpha mare for 26 years, her size probably helped (18.2hh warmblood) but her attitude...when anything out of the ordinary was to be seen from the field she would be there at the fence checking it out and never leaving before things were back to normal. This would go from big machines taking out trees to someone walking his dog, screaming ambulances, nothing phased her!. Hot air balloons (stood 50mtrs from them while landing) any traffic, fireworks ANYTHING nothing scared her (in fact, she loved fireworks), given the chance she would charge and deal with any threat.

She was the boss in any "herd" (=field with horses) I ever put her in not by charging or kicking, she only had to look at another horse to intimidate them and make them change their mind. Used her many times to bombproof other horses hacking out.

and although she would have litterally gone through fire for me, I never attempted doing a join-up with her (not into that kind of thing anyway but did take lessons and realised that it could be suitable with some horses)

I am confident that she(thinks she) has been protecting me all her life, as I think I have, but I'm also sure she thought she was the boss, I never argued, unless she took it too far, god I miss her.

 

[Frumpoon]

Awwww I have the most awesome story...

Shortly after me and my little horse family moved back to my home town, my newly formed herd of 2 were not getting along AT ALL, as you might expect...but it was very distressing to see 2 big lads scrapping and biting at one another, messy injuries and whatnot, even over the fence they continue to row and argue....

BUT then one day I took Teddy in to ride him and about 40 mins later brought him back to field...his most favourite thing is to have long cool drink straight after work so he heads over to the big water tub that's shared with the adjacent field....cue stroppy nasty gelding sniping and snapping and refusing to let Teds drink....

So my other horse, the big lad who Teds scraps with every day ambles over and proper squares up to stroppy gelding, standing a good hand and half over him, doesn't do anything, just stand and stares him down....Teds has his drink...drama over....my boys are now brothers !!!! I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes

 

[flirtygerty]

So is it purely down to size? My 3 year old is 17 hands. I assumed that an older horse of either sex would be dominant?

Nothing to do with size, I rescued a mini, standing 29" he was great in the field with my 16 2 WB mare and 15 3 Trotter X and 17 1 TB, the little beggar was footsore after having his deformed feet sorted, didn't stop him biting the others legs, or kicking out at them, he was a bully, I don't think my lot could make him out, because of his behaviour, I rehomed him to another mini owner, not being willing to risk my horses joints
In my herd of four, my gelding is boss, (3 geldings 1 mare) if he says move, they all move, the only one above him is me

 

[Cahill]

the boss of my lot appears at 1st glance to be laid back-he lets the 2nd in command do his dirty (read `bossing` )work for him lol

 

[twiggy2]

my mare will investigate anything, she is bold with the unknown, sh is far from dominant and just does her own thing, if another horse approaches her she will say hi but wont groom even when another horse tries to insist on it, if anyone puts their ears back she runs

 

[Phoebe+Sophie]

My mare has a very dominant personality and is bombproof, intelligent and calm. She is not phased by any 'scary' things like fireworks, dog walkers or plastic bags ect. With her previous owner she was the total boss in a herd of two other similar sized mares and she was the eldest. However my gelding is bigger but not exactly clever, bless him, but in terms of food he is the boss. In times of 'danger', he runs to my mare for protection as he is very spooky and can be anxious. When he tries to assert himself he uses aggression which stems from anxiety which is 'weakness', so mentally my mare is always boss and never backs down. When food is involved he uses his size to get what he wants. My mare has actually protected my dog once, whom she probably considers another herd member, from another horse despite the fence between them. She is what I'd call a alpha mare, she was even the boss of a 16.3hh once! She's 12.3hh! I agree with what others have said it's not set in stone and is fluid.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

There are nine horses in our herd and although they are usually out in two groups they do get mixed and matched through the year. Generally they are all very peaceful together but also play a fair bit with occasional squabbles. My old lad is the boss of the whole herd despite being about twice the age of some of the others (he is probably nearly 30) and also second smallest, at 14.2h. The only horse allowed to 'get round' him is my 3 year old and they are quite firmly pair-bonded at the moment. So old lad will share hay with the youngster but not anyone else and only put his ears back to keep the whipper-snapper in order, whereas if any of the others attempt 'uppity' behaviour they will be very firmly chased off. One of the other horses really dislikes my youngster and will properly bite and chase him away. Interestingly this horse is generally very gentle and near the bottom of the herd. The herd dynamics are quite fluid - so who decides when to move, lie down, visit the water trough, and choice of grooming partner etc are definitely not set. I think a lot comes down to horsonality, mood, what else is going on, time of year, which humans are nearby and so on.

 

[PollyP99]

This thread is really interesting. I love the stories of how herds and dynamics have played out for people, love the one where they became friends due to shared enemy.

My mare has moved from one mare field to another in the last few months, before she was submissive to a large TB and dominate to a younger arab mare, the Arab, though a great buddy who calls every time they meet, will try and get a bite or kick in during a hack but wouldn't dare in the field. In her new paddock (adjacent) you have 3 almost perfectly matched size wise mares, similar temperament and the herd is difficult to work out. My mare seems to have risen to the top but came in with a nasty kick a few weeks back so I'm guessing some level setting has gone on. To see them when they meet you would say they are all firmly bonded however so I was quite shocked by the kick, they groom, lie together very close etc.

it's a really interesting subject. My mare will still stop and look over to a gelding she was with a year ago whom she fell deeply in love with, he has moved a couple of miles down the road, she has never seen him there nor can she see him from where she always stops out in hacks and calls but she knows he's there, they're pretty complex beings aren't they?