Herd integration

Erehwemos

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I know I have posted about this before, but here goes!

We are still in the situation where Ellie is not fully integrated with the rest of the mares (there are 5 of them). Over the winter, she was put out with two mares; however one of these is now in the adjacent paddock (same field, separated by electric fencing) whilst the other stays in most of the time as she cannot be caught easily. There are two other mares in the adjacent paddock, whilst the 'Boss' was put in with Ellie. They have been together, without mishap (well, pretty much anyway - Ellie had a minor scrape on her thigh this week but that has been the only sign of any unwanted contact) for over three weeks now.

The YO is wonderful - I must stress that fact. She is great to talk to, and if you have any issues, worries or problems she makes you feel completely at ease approaching her about them. She has said, however, that her one hang up is the fear of horses being kicked in the field - and as such, she doesnt want to put Ellie out with the rest until they have stopped squealing at each other over the fence. I understand her thinking, but they are all mares at the end of the day, and I cant see them actually settling with one another until they are out together and can sort themselves out. It was mentioned a few weeks ago that Ellie 'acts like a stallion' - I very much refute this, and having had my own vet examine and observe her, I am perfectly happy with the fact that she is just a mare, doing what many mares do! She does have a tendency to arch her neck and prance along the fence - as do two of the other mares on the other side - and I have noticed that they squirt at her a lot, although she herself does not squirt at all - never has done, not in all the years I have owned her. YO said the other day that she got her own vet to observe Ellie and the other mares in the field to see if she thought there was anything abnormal - thankfully, her vet agreed with mine that they are just being mares! But...the problem is now that I cannot see a way forward. If YO wants them to be stay apart until they stop noticing and squealing at one another then I cannot see them ever being put back together
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I dont think anyone will be able to give any real advice, as at the end of the day the decisions are down to the YO. But I guess I'm just hoping for some reassurance that they may all eventually settle down and stop squealing...even though I doubt it! A couple of the mares are still on their first seasons...so once these are over and done with is it all likely to settle down? Ellie had her first season a month ago - she's due her second soon. This is another thing that many people at the yard seemed to overlook - the fact that their spring seasons disrupt the status quo greatly!

Hmmm
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emma69

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Oh just chuck them out and be done with it! I used to get so sick of people' introducing over the fence' malarky that some of our liveries did - I swear it wound them up more than throwing them out in the field. Horses are horses, they do kick they do squeal, but the vast majority of the time they settle down very quickly and there are no more issues.
 

Erehwemos

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[ QUOTE ]
Oh just chuck them out and be done with it! I used to get so sick of people' introducing over the fence' malarky that some of our liveries did - I swear it wound them up more than throwing them out in the field. Horses are horses, they do kick they do squeal, but the vast majority of the time they settle down very quickly and there are no more issues.

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I totally, 100% absolutely agree - unfortunately, I'm the only one who thinks so
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I was watching them the other day and happened to say, 'maybe we should just go and take the fence down one day when they're all settled and quiet' - and was promptly shot down in flames!
The thing is, they clearly have a set way of doing things on the yard, and as a new girl (the only new livery for 7 years I think) I have very little power to insist that things are done differently! But I agree - letting them out to sort out the pecking order among themselves is by far the best way. It's how we used to do it when we had our own land and liveries, and not once did we have a horse come in with a kick!
 

Hippona

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I recently changed groups - one of my horses was being badly bullied, and to even out the groups on the yard my 3 horses were moved into the other group.

Now, I may be speaking too soon......not one problem. The horses admittedly vaguely knew each other from walking past on their way in/out of the block but had never been turned out together.

My 3 went out first, early - and one by one the others were turned out. Bit of sqealing and showing off....but you would think they had been togther for years.

My horse had been coming in with bites and hoof-marks all over him from his established field mates......nil, nada,zilch from this new group...so I can only say it depends on the horses.....but yep, I would be tempted to chuck em all in together and let them sort it out between them.
 

ihatework

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Is the concern mainly from the owners of the other 2 mares in relation to Ellie kicking theirs? If so, and I know it will be a pain for you, but what about suggesting that you remove Ellie's back shoes for the first week or two?
 

Pearlsasinger

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Well I would have said 'let them meet over the fence and them just chuck them in together' until the last time we did this and the new mare kicked one of her companions (who admittedly was pushing her luck and ignored warnings). It was the worst injury we've ever had from a kick although not really serious. We kept them apart then until the farrier came and took their back shoes off. They settled much more sensibly after that and of course we were less worried knowing that the risk of injury was reduced.
I have seen other mares kick when horses owned by different people have different routines, when we were at livery we found it better to just have our 4 in a field together.
Incidentally of course 'mares act like stallions' in many ways - they are all entire
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Booboos

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I am afraid I am with your YO on this one. If I understand correctly your horse is turned out with one other and there are a couple more she is compatible with, why isn't this enough? She has another horse to socialise with, so, for me, there is no need to risk putting all of them together.

Although many horses get on really well with each other in new herds I have seen two situations when an otherwise placid horse lost the plot at a new arrival and chased it round kicking it causing serious injuries (this was so bad no one could risk going in the field to separate them), so I can appreciate why your YO would rather be safe than sorry.
 

howengold

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[ QUOTE ]
Oh just chuck them out and be done with it! I used to get so sick of people' introducing over the fence' malarky that some of our liveries did - I swear it wound them up more than throwing them out in the field. Horses are horses, they do kick they do squeal, but the vast majority of the time they settle down very quickly and there are no more issues.

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Under normal circumstances I would have agreed but sadly when I did this to my latest addition my NF mare kicked seven kinds of shyte out of my newbie and nearly killed me in the process (she got tangled in the gate and ripped it of the hinges whilst the offending nag carried on trying to kill her). Anyway I ended up taking the nag out and leaving my new girl with my veteran wonder mare (Mon-ami) and they were fine, it took several attempts to put the nag back in and in the end we cheated, we put my boys in with the newbie and Mon-ami and left poor Star alone for a few days. When Star was put in the herd again she was the outsider and didn't try killing my new one again. I think different methods work for different horses, I certainly won't be doing my old trick of just chucking them all in together after what happened.

My firends has a livery yard in Bickenhill and she always puts the new horses out in the morning before the rest of the herd arrive, usually she puts the quieter horses in first then the others afterwards. She never has any issues with that, she also tries to do it when they go into new grazing as they are more interested in the grass than each other.
 

Erehwemos

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[ QUOTE ]
Is the concern mainly from the owners of the other 2 mares in relation to Ellie kicking theirs? If so, and I know it will be a pain for you, but what about suggesting that you remove Ellie's back shoes for the first week or two?

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Well you see one of the mares that Ellie is not yet out with belongs to the YO, and yes, she is worried about kicking (although Ellie was out all winter with this mare without mishap, so
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) But all the other mares have hind shoes on, and YO has already said she is as concerned about Ellie getting kicked as about her kicking another, if that makes sense? So yes, I could take Elz hind shoes off....but I know the owners of the other mares would not be prepared to do so, so it seems kind of pointless
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Erehwemos

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[ QUOTE ]
I am afraid I am with your YO on this one. If I understand correctly your horse is turned out with one other and there are a couple more she is compatible with, why isn't this enough? She has another horse to socialise with, so, for me, there is no need to risk putting all of them together.

Although many horses get on really well with each other in new herds I have seen two situations when an otherwise placid horse lost the plot at a new arrival and chased it round kicking it causing serious injuries (this was so bad no one could risk going in the field to separate them), so I can appreciate why your YO would rather be safe than sorry.

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Booboos - I think you've missed the point slightly! The issue isnt that I dont feel she has enough company - it's that the aim is to integrate them all into a group of six (not my choice, I would be more than happy for them to stay in threes). My problem is that I thought integration would take maybe a couple of weeks, but we are now two months down the line and still they are being kept apart by the fence. Again, I dont really have a problem with this, but if the ultimate aim is to get them altogether, I just dont know what good waiting any longer is going to do
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It isnt really a problem; Ellie doesnt have much grass but she is positively blooming at the moment so I'm not worried - for the moment - about that. I just wondered what people's views were on the integration process, as I have never known anyone to insist on it taking so long - it seems to defeat the object to me!
 

ihatework

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Are you sure that the other mare owners aren't saying behind your back that they don't want Ellie out with theirs in case she kicks them - then YO is trying to save your feelings by not telling you this?

What I was tryng to get at is if you could possibly pre-empt their fears by agreeing to have Ellies shoes off. (And tell YO you accept the risk of your horse being kicked).

Personally I'm of the mind set of just letting them all get on with it, but having seen how very precious and unwilling to change some people can be then you might have to communicate with every mare owner, find out their feelings/concerns and try and compromise.
 

Erehwemos

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[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure that the other mare owners aren't saying behind your back that they don't want Ellie out with theirs in case she kicks them - then YO is trying to save your feelings by not telling you this?

What I was tryng to get at is if you could possibly pre-empt their fears by agreeing to have Ellies shoes off. (And tell YO you accept the risk of your horse being kicked).

Personally I'm of the mind set of just letting them all get on with it, but having seen how very precious and unwilling to change some people can be then you might have to communicate with every mare owner, find out their feelings/concerns and try and compromise.

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Nope, I'm pretty sure that isnt the case - the other two mares besides YO's horse are owned by the same people, and I think they're pretty ok with things - they just do as they're told!
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I dont want to have her shoes taken off if I can help it as her feet will go to pieces, but obviously I would if it were absolutely necessary. But I had a long chat with the YO the other day and she has actually said that it is HER problem, she herself wants to see them 100% settled before moving them in together, due to having lost two horses in the past to kicks in the field
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But she has just had her own mare shod behind again after going 'barefoot' made her go lame, so I know she wouldnt suggest me doing the same with Elz!
 

Erehwemos

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[ QUOTE ]
Ah ok, not a lot you can do about paranoid YO syndrome other than lump it!

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As I feared!
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It could be worse. I'd have a lot more to moan about if all the horses had been thrown in together the first day I moved to the yard -over-cautiousness is far preferable to that!
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