HHO's "Bear" project pony...

CanteringCarrot

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wispagold

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https://equinatural.co.uk/i/brewers-yeast-and-why-we-shouldn-t-feed-it-anymore

Damn it I've just bought a new 25kg sack!

Does anyone know if yeasacc is still OK? I guess not, as it's the live version of exactly the same yeast.

😡
Might be worth doing a bit of research on this as not all yeasts are the same. I only know about yeasacc for ruminants, rather than horses, but it was specifically meant to increase numbers of fibre digesting and lactic acid utilising bacteria in the rumen. There are lots of papers published on this.
 

Michen

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Thanks though appreciate all the suggestions. There’s got to be something I’m missing that explains this mess.

I’ve ordered equimins hoof mender to try instead, some vit e and will discuss hind gut support today wjth vet.
 

CanteringCarrot

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I'm actually both intrigued and perplexed by this. My horse had some (but not all) liver numbers a little out of whack, but the vet wasn't concerned and he didn't show anything outward signs of a liver issue (we were doing a full blood panel anyway). I did feed him some herbs, which included milk thistle.

I'm sort of not a "herbal" person but some do this every so often and believe it helps the liver deal with toxins, worming, grazing, etc. So I gave him some for 3 weeks, when we retested 2 weeks afterward, mostly because of my pure curiosity, liver was all normal. Could've been pure coincidence and maybe he just ate something in the field and that's why the first test was a bit wonky. I have no idea 😅

I don't know what would make a liver issue come and go because I just don't know enough about it.

If everything else in his blood is in order, then that's really frustrating. I know some horses can require more than what is deemed adequate. Mine shows zinc and copper deficiency symptoms even when he gets the right amount, and iron level is appropriate/nothing is blocking the absorption. So he's supplemented supplemented a bit more and everything is fine.
 

ycbm

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Are you sure this isn't BS? As in mostly strung together with loose connections and misinterpretations of data?

No I'm not, I'd like to see the research, because I thought yea-sacc was the live version of the same yeast, and the supplier is still using yea-sacc, which is definitely proven to increase both milk and beef yield in cattle. And brewers great had already been brewed with, so went that would be worse is a bit beyond me.
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ycbm

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Michen I'm really sorry about Bear, you must be at your wits end about him and almost wishing an alien space craft would swoop down and take him away.
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Michen

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Michen I'm really sorry about Bear, you must be at your wits end about him and almost wishing an alien space craft would swoop down and take him away.
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Thanks. Yes sort of to be honest. I wish more than anything the feet were more promising as that feels like the worst thing at the moment.
 

Cloball

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So mine was 2 when his kicked off. I don’t think he got the colostrum needed (older mare) and he had a bit of a worm burden. It all culminated when he had a nasty cut that needed lots of antibiotics. And hey presto gut disaster. If you’ve heavily used antibiotics I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there are hind gut issues. The caecum is on the right and can cause right hind lameness.

I saw an improvement with the Equibiome Prebiotic. And then again once I’d tested and treated accordingly. The test does take about 6weeka and isn’t a quick fix. I’d probably try their prebiotic first and see if you see an improvement.

It all basically about the Gut Biome and the bacteria present. Bad bacteria can cause inflammation and other related issues.

This is the article I read re. Liver and gut.

https://www.equibiome.org/post/design-a-stunning-blog

It looks like there’s been a link in humans too:

https://gut.bmj.com/content/65/12/2035

Edited to say I was a sceptic. But was at my wits end. And had exhausted my vets suggestions.
Malabsorption from the hind but might explain the footiness too?
 

ycbm

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Ok great thanks that could be another option then! Does it need to be the natural version I wonder?

Vitamin E

No it doesn't have to be the natural version, but in layman's terms, the synthetic version contains left and right handed molecules and the horse can only use the right handed ones, so you have to feed twice as much.

It's half the cost, so attractive if you don't know you need to feed twice as much :)
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Michen

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Where do I start though guys there’s so many supplements already! Equimins hoof mender, milk thistle , mycosorb (shall I drop this), about to add vit E and then a hind gut supp?
 

CanteringCarrot

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Vitamin E does make a difference in many things. I have seen better results with natural, even though I did feed the higher amount with synthetic. So I just feed the natural now.

I'd also wait to see what the blood says.
 

Roxylola

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Would it be worth speaking to a place like forage plus or similar to see if they could do you a tailored supplement - I think its them that do the forage testing and cone up with appropriate supplement fir your forage.
I might sound like a terrible terrible person now. Is he actually lame? Could it be that he's just a bit mechanically unsound? My gait isn't perfect when I run but I'm not in pain just a little wonky and stiff I certainly wouldn't pass a vetting but while a lameness work up/scans etc might show various issues with me I'm still functionally ok and pain free getting about and doing. Much as I understand your desire to get to the bottom of things I'd be tempted to crack on with some work and see how you get on, he'll either get worse in which case you might have some idea where to look next, or better.
I've heard good things about alphabute (it's not bute) and had good experience with global herbs move free for a horse who just needed a bit of extra help. I know there is then the worry of masking pain, but pain free is pain free imo it's not like you're using it to go jump 140 tracks, you just want your nice little horse to have a happy life. Assuming you monitor and there's no change in the feet, liver etc I'd certainly be prepared to try it
 

Pinkvboots

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One of mine has thin soles and feels everything his shod in a wide bearing aluminium shoe so not burnt on as he feels that as well, we often use silicone pads with them through certain times and they definitely help, he doesn't ever look really lame just slightly unlevel intermittently and worse on circles when he gets bad.

I have tried barefoot but his got odd front feet so boots are hard to get right certain lighter boots don't fit and the clumpy ones make him trip.

His fed the progressive earth platinum hoof supplement.

I don't really have any other advice regarding liver have never had any experience of that but thought I would share my horses feet experience and what we now do.
 

Michen

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Would it be worth speaking to a place like forage plus or similar to see if they could do you a tailored supplement - I think its them that do the forage testing and cone up with appropriate supplement fir your forage.
I might sound like a terrible terrible person now. Is he actually lame? Could it be that he's just a bit mechanically unsound? My gait isn't perfect when I run but I'm not in pain just a little wonky and stiff I certainly wouldn't pass a vetting but while a lameness work up/scans etc might show various issues with me I'm still functionally ok and pain free getting about and doing. Much as I understand your desire to get to the bottom of things I'd be tempted to crack on with some work and see how you get on, he'll either get worse in which case you might have some idea where to look next, or better.
I've heard good things about alphabute (it's not bute) and had good experience with global herbs move free for a horse who just needed a bit of extra help. I know there is then the worry of masking pain, but pain free is pain free imo it's not like you're using it to go jump 140 tracks, you just want your nice little horse to have a happy life. Assuming you monitor and there's no change in the feet, liver etc I'd certainly be prepared to try it
Yep to be honest I’m not too worried about the lameness. It’s very very mild and the scan is great so I am confident he will be just fine on that front with the right rehab work etc.

I am more concerned about the liver and feet situ, feels like that is at breaking point. If I can’t get on top of whatever is making his feet so terrible (assuming liver) it just feels like a downhill spiral from there.

He is compromised in some way somewhere and I just can’t get on top of it to help. It would be diff if he had always struggled with his feet but he hasn’t- as in- he should be pretty comfy on most surfaces and growing some more hoof at least but just nothing.
 

Roxylola

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Years ago, I got my horse some seaweed supplement - part of the "science" of it was that it helped the gut absorb better so the horse got more of what it needed. Honestly it was pre internet so maybe just hokum but my horse did well on it, coat and hoof quality improved and its one of those things that seems less popular now (perhaps because the science has improved on other things) but its still something I'd consider trying especially in a scenario like this where there's nothing really "wrong" except there is obviously something somewhere
 

HelenBack

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This is in no way going to solve all of your problems and I have no idea on the liver front but as far as the feet and feed go, when my lad first went barefoot I did what I thought was the right thing and put him on one of the barefoot friendly supplements. His hoof quality actually declined, his coat looked dull and generally he just didn't look as good. I contacted an independent nutritionist who advised me to put him back on a pelleted balancer because she felt that his diet was likely lacking in enough quality protein. I took her advice and I have to say he does look and feel so much better on it. He does have Cushing's which means they need more protein so that might make a difference depending on the results of your retest for this. He is also a Connie and the only thing I will say is even at this I have had to accept that he will never have prize winning feet. They are still slow growing and he pretty much self trims with only a small amount of work on tarmac. They are loads better than they were though. So obviously I don't know what you feed now and as I said it's nowhere near the whole solution but I thought it worth mentioning in case it can help with the feet issue a little bit.

Also I'm sure you're on top of this but if the standard Cushing's test comes back negative again it might well be worth doing the more sensitive one or even just doing a Prascend trial to see if that helps with the footiness.
 

Michen

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This is in no way going to solve all of your problems and I have no idea on the liver front but as far as the feet and feed go, when my lad first went barefoot I did what I thought was the right thing and put him on one of the barefoot friendly supplements. His hoof quality actually declined, his coat looked dull and generally he just didn't look as good. I contacted an independent nutritionist who advised me to put him back on a pelleted balancer because she felt that his diet was likely lacking in enough quality protein. I took her advice and I have to say he does look and feel so much better on it. He does have Cushing's which means they need more protein so that might make a difference depending on the results of your retest for this. He is also a Connie and the only thing I will say is even at this I have had to accept that he will never have prize winning feet. They are still slow growing and he pretty much self trims with only a small amount of work on tarmac. They are loads better than they were though. So obviously I don't know what you feed now and as I said it's nowhere near the whole solution but I thought it worth mentioning in case it can help with the feet issue a little bit.

Also I'm sure you're on top of this but if the standard Cushing's test comes back negative again it might well be worth doing the more sensitive one or even just doing a Prascend trial to see if that helps with the footiness.
Thanks so much for this. How old is your boy?
 

Tiddlypom

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I know that it's just one more thing and spendy at £155, but I do recommend getting the equibiome hind gut biome analysis done. That way you'll find out rather than need to guess whether his hind gut is out of kilter.

The test has been recommended to me by both my chiro vet and my regular vet, who have seen good results based on dietary changes following on from the findings.

My own homebred now 10 yo's analysis this year showed that her gut biome was way out o_O. She had a persistent mild RH offness despite competing at BE80 and training to 100. Wish I'd got the test done earlier, but I didn't even know of it.

If the hind gut is off, then the ramifications for the health of the whole horse are immense.
 
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Michen

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I know that it's just one more thing and spendy at £155, but I do recommend getting the equibiome hind gut biome analysis done. That way you'll find out rather than need to guess whether his hind gut is out of kilter.

The test has been recoomended to me by both my chiro vet and my regular vet, who have seen good results based on dietary changes following on from the findings.

My own 10 yo's analysis this year showed that her gut biome was way out o_O. She had a persistent mild RH offness despite competing at BE100 and training to 100. Wish I'd got the test done earlier, but I didn't even know of it.

If the hind gut is off, then the ramifications for the health of the whole horse are immense.
Thanks. What's the treatment though, as maybe best just to spend the 150 on treating it and assuming it is an issue?
 

HelenBack

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Thanks so much for this. How old is your boy?
He's 14 now and was 12 when he was diagnosed. He had no obvious symptoms other than being a bit flat and not quite himself. I just asked the vet to test for everything and that was what came back. I know Bear is a lot younger though but it's not unheard of in younger horses.
 

GinaGeo

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Thanks. What's the treatment though, as maybe best just to spend the 150 on treating it and assuming it is an issue?
It does depend on the test results.

But predominantly Oily Herbs (Rosemary, Sage and Oregano) and then the recommended Biome Feeds. Mine for example started on Biome 5, progressed onto 4 and 6 and then maintenance on 7. Mine all get the oily herbs now.

I'm expecting one of my other's EMS Equibiome Test results back imminently, and expect that it will be quite different. He's been on their EMS Biome Feeds for about 6 weeks now. Interestingly they've also linked Gut Biome to Equine Asthma, which this horse has had for about 10 years, I noticed the other day that he hasn't coughed in the last month. The links between gut and body are very interesting indeed.
 

Michen

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Maybe a bit off the wall out there. But when my mare had liver trouble she also tested positive for Lyme disease, which can also present in soundness issues. May be absolutely unrelated and not at all what’s wrong with Bear but thought I’d put it out there.
Nope not at all and Lyme disease was something I spoke to my vet about before, we did rule it out for various reasons but I can't remember why. Will revisit it though!
 
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