Hi everyone! From the USA with questions on alfalfa sensitivity

[Melelio]

I started reading intriguing posts here about alfalfa sensitivity in horses and got hooked! I can't seem to find the same level of experiences on the Chronicle of the Horse forums (whose members I generally trust to be highly informative in various ways). I wonder if there's something different about the way legumes are processed in the UK to the USA. I'll start a post to ask you all and see what comes up!

I'm currently in north Texas. Glad to get to 'know' you!

H

 

[Melelio]

Hi! I'm in the US (native), been messing with horses since I was 10 and found the first one loose running up a road near my house! Been horse nutty since birth, though.

I have a STB/Draft cross 4 year old that I picked up at a kill pen last October. He was fairly underweight. Got him back to weight in 3 months, and have let him mostly alone to grow and recuperate, other than messing with him on the ground. He was training to pull a cart, had the big metal Borium-tipped shoes on for roadwork.

Anyhow, he has a buddy he's gotten along with well, but he has been a bit of a bully along the way. Not mean, just big, dopey and clunky with no sense of space boundaries with said friend, or ME if he gets nervous. The last two months his buddy has been on stall and separate paddock rest for a twisted hock. I'm trying to get them back together slowly for an hour at a time in the same field, but the STB has gotten FAR too pushy and mean, biting and barreling into the smaller QH buddy, who cannot handle that level of activity.

So to the meat of the subject line. This STBDx has been eating alfalfa pellets in one form or another since he came. He choked twice (vet intervention both times) on the large ones so I went to the small, which I still have to water down because he gulps his feed still. He's always been kind and calm, but a bit worried here and there, maybe just from former poor handling.

He's on a 50/50 alf pellet & 14% Purina pellet with no alf in it, 3 times a day varying amounts.

He got SO aggressive the other day that I started research and somehow lit on the alfalfa possibility, ended up HERE reading so many posts about it. It seems much more known about in the UK than the US. We feed alf here like it's a god, I swear. No one seems to believe it could be a problem ("I've fed 500 horse for 50 years on it and never had a problem" - that they bothered to look into anyhow, is my guess;had another excuse for bad horsie behavior). You all seem to really have all the symptoms figured out.

My guy has ALL the symptoms: he drools at feed time -like a dog, he hypersweats, he pees alot, he gets bumps all over his body, he's at times hypervigilant about something different-yet he's very easygoing mostly. And he now gets aggressive and also runs like an idiot for short periods with no reason. Then I come here and read all of the input on it...OOOHHHHHHHH......

So I pulled him off the alf pellets yesterday. Am reducing his feed volume anyhow, so I will report back in as to any changes I see from this. I won't be able to report on the hypersweat since our weather is heading for fall temps here - it's been in the mid to upper 90s (F) this summer, so there's been some reason to sweat but the lil grey QH doesn't do the same.

I so hope that losing the alf makes all the things above go away. He'll be a lovely hack horse maybe next year if I can solve the aggression issue with his buddy. He's not studdy, and they were pretty good together with the occasional too rough play in the past, but nothing to the level he displayed last week. PLEASE be the alf!!!

Also I read about Sainfoin for the first time ever here! Never knew about it! Here's an interesting university study article about it from the US you might enjoy: https://animalrangeextension.montana.edu/forage/sainfoin_deal_MT.html

We don't have it as a feed option here as you seem to. Not that I really need a legume for this guy, but I want to learn!

Thanks for all your wonderful past posts that helped so fantastically!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Here's the thread from Chronicle of The Horse if anyone is wondering:

Alfalfa 'intolerance'..your thoughts?

I have a STB/draft cross 4 year old from the kill pen from a KY Amish area. He’s back to weight and I’ve had him on a 50/50 feed pellet/alfalfa pellet mix since arriving in November. eating coastal/tifton hay only. He is a silly thing, but has gotten quite bold and almost aggressive with his QH...

forum.chronofhorse.com

It's been discussed on there quite a few times (as people pointed out) and many on there over the years have said that their horses can't have alfalfa for various reasons. I even made a thread at one point about finding an alfalfa free balancer in the USA due to sensitivity.

So I'm not sure that there's a true lack of experience with it between the two forums, but maybe?

 

[Melelio]

Here's the thread from Chronicle of The Horse if anyone is wondering:

Alfalfa 'intolerance'..your thoughts?

I have a STB/draft cross 4 year old from the kill pen from a KY Amish area. He’s back to weight and I’ve had him on a 50/50 feed pellet/alfalfa pellet mix since arriving in November. eating coastal/tifton hay only. He is a silly thing, but has gotten quite bold and almost aggressive with his QH...

forum.chronofhorse.com

It's been discussed on there quite a few times (as people pointed out) and many on there over the years have said that their horses can't have alfalfa for various reasons. I even made a thread at one point about finding an alfalfa free balancer in the USA due to sensitivity.

So I'm not sure that there's a true lack of experience with it between the two forums, but maybe?

So what's your helpful point on this? Do you disagree that this forum is FAR more helpful on the subject? Or just pissing that I 'made up' the lack of posts there? Even MY post isn't bringing forth many experiences - of course that may be simply it's newer and no one is paying any mind. Fine by me; this forum HERE is QUITE helpful. And we know what folks on the other can be like at times. Thanks for the cheery welcome.

 

[PurBee]

Fingers crossed for you switching out the alfalfa helps calm his behaviour with his buddy.

The USA does feed it commonly, and I’ve always wondered if that was the main forage and nothing else, or was part of a wider forage diet.

The main issue with alfalfa nutritionally is it is usually higher in calcium (and protein) than other general meadow grass hays. If a horse has that as a dominant forage, the high calcium can start to upset the mineral balance in the body between magnesium/potassium/phosphorus. As these minerals are key minerals for contraction and relaxation, as well as a whole host of other biological jobs, having calcium predominantly high in the body can have downstream effects, and ultimately affect their behaviour.

The protein content of alfalfa being higher than meadow hay, is likely too rich for a horse not doing much ridden work. It is likely causing higher urine output due to excess protein not required. This is if the horse is just mostly on alfalfa as forage feed. If the alfalfa is just upto 30% of the diet mixed with other balanced forages it wouldn’t be such an issue.

It’ll be interesting to hear how he gets on with the switch over.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

So what's your helpful point on this? Do you disagree that this forum is FAR more helpful on the subject? Or just pissing that I 'made up' the lack of posts there? Even MY post isn't bringing forth many experiences - of course that may be simply it's newer and no one is paying any mind. Fine by me; this forum HERE is QUITE helpful. And we know what folks on the other can be like at times. Thanks for the cheery welcome.

I think that you've taken my post in the completely wrong way and I'm sorry that you've felt the need to be so incredibly defensive about it.

I posted the link to the thread in case others were curious or wanted to dig into the topic on both forums like you have.

I don't agree or disagree that this forum is FAR more helpful on the subject. I've gotten equally useful bits from both forums on this topic, tbh.

Also, I'm not pissing about anything

Honestly, as with most things in life, forums are what you make them. You can choose what you read, who you interact with, and how you take things. If you prefer this one and find it FAR more useful, then that's fine. It's an interesting topic, and I've read discussions about it on both forums.

To be fair, you did get a number of replies and links to threads on that other forum, so it's not like it was radio silence.

I've found great folks on HHO and great folks on COTH some aren't my flavor, but 'tis life. I think that people will be a bit more light and polite on this forum, mostly due to culture, but there are some good deep discussions too, and HHO doesn't come without its dramas.

Welcome to HHO, and I'm glad that you've found it to be quite useful for the topic that you're interested in.

 

[Melelio]

I think that you've taken my post in the completely wrong way and I'm sorry that you've felt the need to be so incredibly defensive about it.

I posted the link to the thread in case others were curious or wanted to dig into the topic on both forums like you have.

I don't agree or disagree that this forum is FAR more helpful on the subject. I've gotten equally useful bits from both forums on this topic, tbh.

Also, I'm not pissing about anything

Honestly, as with most things in life, forums are what you make them. You can choose what you read, who you interact with, and how you take things. If you prefer this one and find it FAR more useful, then that's fine. It's an interesting topic, and I've read discussions about it on both forums.

To be fair, you did get a number of replies and links to threads on that other forum, so it's not like it was radio silence.

I've found great folks on HHO and great folks on COTH some aren't my flavor, but 'tis life. I think that people will be a bit more light and polite on this forum, mostly due to culture, but there are some good deep discussions too, and HHO doesn't come without its dramas.

Welcome to HHO, and I'm glad that you've found it to be quite useful for the topic that you're interested in.

It did come off as 'what's the problem there are posts on the other' when I stated that THIS forum had the most helpful and quantitative posting yet your reply. I can only see what's in black and white. I think the culture difference may lead to some here doing more digging than COTH sometimes does.

I've always found this forum quite useful. This is simply a new topic I had no clue about until I found answers here. Thanks H&H!!!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I dunno, COTH really does some digging and there are knowledgeable people over there too. The search feature might not be as friendly though.

I've kept horses in 3 different countries, and all have had similar attitudes toward alfalfa, including the USA. That attitude being, "it works for some but not for others." I've not seen anyone treat alfalfa like gold or anything.

I just thought that you were being a bit unfair to the USA crowd. I've definitely read and heard alfalfa talked about, and I've for sure heard people mention sensitivities/reactivity, and that some horses can't be fed alfalfa. So I guess I've just had a different experience, which is fine.

Even at my boarding barn in the USA some wouldn't feed alfalfa because it was too rich, or because they thought their horse had certain symptoms from it, while others had no issues, but that's just my personal experience.

Some horses just don't need alfalfa, tbh.

I hope that you'll report back on any changes that you notice by taking yours off of it. That would be interesting.

 

[Melelio]

I dunno, COTH really does some digging and there are knowledgeable people over there too. The search feature might not be as friendly though.

I've kept horses in 3 different countries, and all have had similar attitudes toward alfalfa, including the USA. That attitude being, "it works for some but not for others." I've not seen anyone treat alfalfa like gold or anything.

I just thought that you were being a bit unfair to the USA crowd. I've definitely read and heard alfalfa talked about, and I've for sure heard people mention sensitivities/reactivity, and that some horses can't be fed alfalfa. So I guess I've just had a different experience, which is fine.

Even at my boarding barn in the USA some wouldn't feed alfalfa because it was too rich, or because they thought their horse had certain symptoms from it, while others had no issues, but that's just my personal experience.

Some horses just don't need alfalfa, tbh.

I hope that you'll report back on any changes that you notice by taking yours off of it. That would be interesting.

I'd PM you but can't. Bluey - one of the top respected members I think of - just responded to my post there basically saying "hogwash". And that's what I'm talking about. That's why I seek other opinions and find honest, open sharing of ideas to be positive to learning.

 

[Velvet turner]

My youngster became agressive when fed Alfalfa. As soon as i took ger off it she was absolutly fine.

 

[Forum Admin Team]

Threads merged.

 

[Aimzz]

I'm in the UK. I feed my ottb alfalfa, on recommendation from my vets and reading it as a good option from some nutritionists I follow.

Haven't noticed any negative changes in behaviour myself. She does well on it.

 

[Exasperated]

I'd PM you but can't. Bluey - one of the top respected members I think of - just responded to my post there basically saying "hogwash". And that's what I'm talking about. That's why I seek other opinions and find honest, open sharing of ideas to be positive to learning.

Hi
I avoid alfalfa if possible. Even the ridiculously small amount that is in balancer rations - Section Ds, and the stallion particularly seems to behave far more reactively than usual if fed any. Anecdotal, but interesting.
Hope yours improves anyway! Good luck.

 

[planete]

I used to feed my arab a lot of alfalfa and he did well and was his usual happy self on it. The pony I have now cannot have even a handful of it without becoming a cranky jumpy daft thing. As said earlier it suits some and not others.

 

[Landcruiser]

My very well known and well respected barefoot trimmer is completely anti the feeding of alfalfa, and says that she has found a correlation between hoof issues (which mostly reflect body/metabolic issues) and the feeding of alfalfa.

Just as an aside, I have to give the standard H&H response of "Has he been checked for ulcers?" Given his background, period of starvation, possible abuse, and multiple stressful changes in his life, I would (also) want to rule that out as a cause of the strange behaviour and symptoms.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Melelio]

So update. The day I posted here about this -27 Aug - I took alfalfa out of the goober's diet. Took him back in quantity a bit and added a 12-8 pellet to replace the bulk of the alfalfa. He was getting a bit puffy, so maybe part of it is about total calories butt......

I turned out my lil QH today after lunch (we have NO grass here, so supplementing with a bite of lunch to soothe bellies) to see if there was any change. He's been hurt and in stall or in a back paddock alone. However, there was NO aggressive behavior on the part of the STBx and surprisingly they have been out about 3 hours now and I see NO playing/pushing/biting and general unpleasantness going on! YAY!

Now he IS only a 4 year old, and I expect a bit of play to come back, but the last time I had them out together it was a cat & mouse game between the trees, the QH trying to get away from 'the mouth'. I wonder, too, if the enforced separation made the young one mature in his mind a bit, too. My guess is he's always been in with a bunch at the Amish farm and then here. Still not sure if the alfalfa itself was at the bottom of the behavior or the calories. I will be keeping him OFF alfalfa, though.

Learn something new all the time!

 

[Lois Lame]

I've only ever known of one horse who was apparently upset by alfalfa. (I must also call it lucerne, because that's what we call it here in Australia.) It seems to me that it's only a small percentage of horses who go a little odd/off when fed it. That's my feeling. In all the places where I have agisted a horse over the years, I've only known one horse whose owner had to take it off alfalfa. (And that owner was a little over-the-top at the best of times, and very full of herself at other times, so, who knows, even that mare might not have found her hay to be the cause of her troubles. Poor horse)

I'm not referring to horses who sweat more when fed alfalfa/lucerne, because I think this stems from the balance of their overall ration being thrown out of whack - the sort of thing PurBee was saying up-thread. I remember many years ago a lady vet was talking about a particular balanced pellet that only needed roughage added, and this roughage had to be something like oaten or wheaten hay or chaff, NOT lucerne/alfalfa. If you fed lucerne/alfalfa with it instead of oaten or wheaten, your horse would sweat much, much more than he should.

ETA: Interesting update, Melelio. And welcome to H&H.

 

[Elno]

Sweden here. I've had several that reacted rather strange to lucerne/alfalfa even in small amounts including my current horse. It took me a while to piece together his behavior, his itchyness and the small scabs on his pink nose with the fact he was given a small amount of a lucerne based pelleted vit/min. He got worse when I (thinking our hay perhaps lacked in protein) introduced some pure alfalfa pellets and that is when I put 2+2 together.