"High-tailing" - Excitement or fear?

Illusion100

Illusion100

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As some of you may know, I do not have the Worlds easiest youngster.

He has made really positive progress over the recent months and is much better to handle and more open to tolerating pressure, such as having flyspray put on, which was previously futile. However, although much improved, he is a very reactive horse that tends not to risk assess very well and his "go-to" reaction is to go into flight mode.

However he recently gave me very mixed signals the other night during his training session. He spotted cattle and immediately reacted. Tail up, head up, instantly grown another hand, signs which I initially took as excitement, however at second glance his muzzle was extremely tense and his bottom lip was pulled back towards his chin and white of eyes showing. He seemed terrified. All he wanted to do was bolt, not permitted to bolt, he wanted to rear and fight his way out of the situation, but backed down.

My experience of fearful horses has been a clamped down tail, not displayed over the back. He frequently puts his tail over back etc but a swift correction diffuses the situation very quickly and he has not previously shown fear when his tail was up.

Anyone any thoughts or experience of something similar?
 
I don't know of course because I was not there but I would speculate tail up was excitement he then reacted because he felt his range of options for reacting to the exciting cows where inhibited and that frightens him.
All you can do is be as consistent as possible .
And stay as safe as possible .
 
One of mine is quite reactive and hot, the tiniest stimulation (can be nice, scary or new) causes him to flag his tail - he is an arab though.
 
Goldenstar said:
I don't know of course because I was not there but I would speculate tail up was excitement he then reacted because he felt his range of options for reacting to the exciting cows where inhibited and that frightens him.
All you can do is be as consistent as possible .
And stay as safe as possible .
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He is a horse that needs a eagle eye on him with any handling. Even if excited he may try to rear/bolt, he has to be reminded NO! even before the thought has to chance to cross from one side of his mind to the other.

The combined excitement and fear signals confused me. One or the other is normal, not so much both at once.

He has been doing very well in his groundwork training and I'm delighted with his progress (as slow as it is!). He has been so much calmer and making much better decisions.

He wears his heart on his sleeve and hasn't a bad bone in him.

Thanks though, Goldenstar, I will be vigilant and remain safe as I don't want you to tell me off if I get injured! ;)
 
Illusion100 said:
He is a horse that needs a eagle eye on him with any handling. Even if excited he may try to rear/bolt, he has to be reminded NO! even before the thought has to chance to cross from one side of his mind to the other.

The combined excitement and fear signals confused me. One or the other is normal, not so much both at once.

He has been doing very well in his groundwork training and I'm delighted with his progress (as slow as it is!). He has been so much calmer and making much better decisions.

He wears his heart on his sleeve and hasn't a bad bone in him.

Thanks though, Goldenstar, I will be vigilant and remain safe as I don't want you to tell me off if I get injured! ;)
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I am in no position to tell anyone off for getting injured .
The thing is if you are enjoying the process ( not every moment but broadly enjoying it ) it's ok but don't feel obligated to plug on if it's making your life a misery .
 
Goldenstar said:
I am in no position to tell anyone off for getting injured .
The thing is if you are enjoying the process ( not every moment but broadly enjoying it ) it's ok but don't feel obligated to plug on if it's making your life a misery .
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I love my little monkey. He is funny and full of life, intelligent, likes to please, responsive and has the kind of personality you can't help but enjoy. However, he has deep routed issues through no fault of his own and they aren't a quick fix.

I wouldn't be without him.

Sorry to hear you've had injuries too, I hope none of them are recent and without a full recovery.
 
Illusion100 said:
Does your Arab panic as such, rear/bolt/stress or do you see it as more of just being his normal stylish reaction?
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It's normal for him, but he is not an easy horse. Vet shy, head shy (caused by a vet who ear twitched him as a foal) and waves his head about (not just the normal arab head snaking), he got really upset once and started flinging his head about so much that he fell over. You can't put a bridle on him normally, put 'hard' boots on his legs and he's terrible to worm with a syringe. He hates bits too. He's forward thinking though and is willing. Stopping and standing calmly is hard for him, but we're getting there.

I don't pander to his every whim, but I don't set him up for failure either. He learns best if I can keep him calm, so with his bitless bridle, for example, I undo the cheekpeices and build it on his head. If I tried to put it on normally I would fail and he'd be more stressed the next time. but when I put it on in pieces, I will gently brush his ears with it so he gets used to the idea that it's not an issue. I have started taking it off normally and he's OK with that now.

I don't want him to shut down so i don't overwhelm him. Short sessions where I've made it easy for him to get it right, that end on a good note are the key to progress.

I could easily make him rear or stress, but I avoid pushing those buttons (what would it achieve?). He's not bolted away, drag me a few steps, yes. He does stick by me pretty well these days. I was thrilled a while back when he was really good going past a hedge cutter. He's also gone past a chainsaw now without any fuss now.
 
Illusion100 said:
However, although much improved, he is a very reactive horse that tends not to risk assess very well and his "go-to" reaction is to go into flight mode.
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I think part of your problem may be that your horse is very astute in his risk assessment and has a very real sense of self preservation. If he isn't getting enough confidence from you, he will be unable to cope and will tend toward flight.



Illusion100 said:
He spotted cattle and immediately reacted. Tail up, head up, instantly grown another hand, signs which I initially took as excitement, however at second glance his muzzle was extremely tense and his bottom lip was pulled back towards his chin and white of eyes showing. He seemed terrified. All he wanted to do was bolt, not permitted to bolt, he wanted to rear and fight his way out of the situation, but backed down.
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He was terrified. If you think of the situation as being in Africa, with cape buffalo as the cows and zebra as the horse you can begin to understand what is going on. The buffalo are grazing near the zebra and each species is aware of the demeanour of the other. If everyone is calm then all must be well.

However, if the buffalo get wind of a predator, their heads immediately come up and they start forming a group and milling around. They also begin to advance on the predator as part of their defense strategy.

At the point where the buffalo change their behaviour, the zebra immediately become alert. They are now assessing the situation and any risk to their welfare. As the buffalo intensify their reaction, so the zebra become more tense.

If the buffalo advance toward the zebra, it is very likely that the predator lies hidden between the two species, so the zebra become more likely to take flight. The closer the buffalo come to them, the more the zebra want to put some distance between them as it is obvious that the predator must be close.

That's how it works with horses and cows. A situation where cattle suddenly lift their heads and move toward a horse, especially if they are young cattle and excitedly romping about in a tight herd, directly mirrors the similar scenario in Africa, so the horse is very likely to become very alert and, at some point, will take flight. Any attempts by the rider to hamper or restrain the horse against flight will cause a very dangerous situation where the horse may rear or bolt.

Illusion100 said:
My experience of fearful horses has been a clamped down tail, not displayed over the back. He frequently puts his tail over back etc but a swift correction diffuses the situation very quickly and he has not previously shown fear when his tail was up.

Anyone any thoughts or experience of something similar?
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In a situation where adrenalin is rising quickly in response to intense fear, the horse's tail is likely to be lifted or flagged. The horse will probably pass dung which fills the air with the aroma of faeces and adrenalin. A horse on high alert, with his head high, his tail up, eyes wide, tension throughout his body, and reeking of adrenalin gives a very powerful signal to other horses in the area that there really is something to be greatly concerned about.

In such a situation, it is essential to allow the horse to move away from the advancing cattle in a controlled manner so as to avoid the flight response. Any attempts to prevent the horse from moving will only heighten its fear and cause great resistance, and danger to horse and rider.
 
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AengusOg said:
I think part of your problem may be that your horse is very astute in his risk assessment and has a very real sense of self preservation. If he isn't getting enough confidence from you, he will be unable to cope and will tend toward flight.






He was terrified. If you think of the situation as being in Africa, with cape buffalo as the cows and zebra as the horse you can begin to understand what is going on. The buffalo are grazing near the zebra and each species is aware of the demeanour of the other. If everyone is calm then all must be well.

However, if the buffalo get wind of a predator, their heads immediately come up and they start forming a group and milling around. They also begin to advance on the predator as part of their defense strategy.

At the point where the buffalo change their behaviour, the zebra immediately become alert. They are now assessing the situation and any risk to their welfare. As the buffalo intensify their reaction, so the zebra become more tense.

If the buffalo advance toward the zebra, it is very likely that the predator lies hidden between the two species, so the zebra become more likely to take flight. The closer the buffalo come to them, the more the zebra want to put some distance between them as it is obvious that the predator must be close.

That's how it works with horses and cows. A situation where cattle suddenly lift their heads and move toward a horse, especially if they are young cattle and excitedly romping about in a tight herd, directly mirrors the similar scenario in Africa, so the horse is very likely to become very alert and, at some point, will take flight. Any attempts by the rider to hamper or restrain the horse against flight will cause a very dangerous situation where the horse may rear or bolt.



In a situation where adrenalin is rising quickly in response to intense fear, the horse's tail is likely to be lifted or flagged. The horse will probably pass dung which fills the air with the aroma of faeces and adrenalin. A horse on high alert, with his head high, his tail up, eyes wide, tension throughout his body, and reeking of adrenalin gives a very powerful signal to other horses in the area that there really is something to be greatly concerned about.


In such a situation, it is essential to allow the horse to move away from the advancing cattle in a controlled manner so as to avoid the flight response. Any attempts to prevent the horse from moving will only heighten its fear and cause great resistance, and danger to horse and rider.
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In this instance, the cows did not approach my horse or show any interest. My horse simply caught sight of one that was grazing closer to the fence and reacted. He did not know they were there and it caught him completely off-guard. It doesn't help that they are obscured by a hedge when approaching from the fields, cannot be seen from a distance and kind of just pop out without any kind of warning.

Once he reacted he was allowed to move his feet but, as you say, only in a controlled manner and he was asked to use his 'target training' to re-direct focus for a positive reward. This continued until he returned to a much calmer frame of mind, then we walked a couple of steps back to where he first panicked then circled away and walked back up the lane calmly and politely. It ended very positively and I was pleased with his decision to settle himself down again relatively quickly. His training has been taken very slowly and tbh, I did not think he could see the cattle from that point of the lane, as it turns out he could! He did not attempt to drag me or actually lift his forelegs from the ground, the only things that were dramatic was his body language and the snorting.

I have arranged to borrow a field that, if the cattle graze near the fence, he will be able to see them and hopefully become more familiar with their presence in his own time. He will be next to several other sensible horses for guidance.

The cattle aren't really well situated, they are opposite the arena and you have to walk directly past them to get into the yard. They have already caused numerous difficulties from spooking ridden horses and causing falls and unnerving horses being led past, which have reared/bolted. So, all in all, although my lad did have a strong reaction his subsequent behaviour and ability to calm down was much better than others in the same situation, and for that reason I'm pleased with him.
 
In my experience, when my horses put their tails up it's usually in conjunction with their heads going up and them making the sound of a steam train and yes they do tend to run off it means they're just excited. Normally the head goes up and they produce a trot that would rival the likes of Vallegro (my cobs could be dressage stars if they did it on command!) when they're scared they tend to clamp their tails down and arch their backs. If he didn't like it he'd be vary wary of the same situation again.
 
Faracat said:
Question - is this the same horse that was on the thread where 'learned helplessness' was discussed?
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Yes. I find the term interesting and confusing. I previously spoke to Melanie Watson who recommended two trainers. I then spoke to them both, one lady talked a lot about her view of 'learned helplessness' and when asked for her views, the second trainer disagreed and felt the term was rather exaggerated. Afterwards I spoke to Michael Peace who also felt the term 'learned helplessness' was inappropriate.

Example being application of flyspray.

First trainer believed that if a horse did not like flyspray being applied then stop, otherwise the horse will try to evade, panic etc etc until the horse finally learns that no matter what it does, it cannot get away from the spray and then shut down from 'learned helplessness' and stand to have the spray put on.

The other two trainers both felt that the flyspray should be applied until the horse performs the correct behaviour, i.e. standing still. As soon as that happens stop spraying. Then repeat process until the horse learns that standing quietly gets the flyspray removed very quickly.

So, all trainers felt that the horse standing still to have the spray put on was the goal but their methods of how to achieve this were different.

One trainer would believe that the other two trainers methods instil 'learned helplessness' whereas other call it 'pressure and release' technique.

Personally, I think this term 'learned helplessness' is very effective in influencing people to believe something that isn't really there.
 
wattamus said:
In my experience, when my horses put their tails up it's usually in conjunction with their heads going up and them making the sound of a steam train and yes they do tend to run off it means they're just excited. Normally the head goes up and they produce a trot that would rival the likes of Vallegro (my cobs could be dressage stars if they did it on command!) when they're scared they tend to clamp their tails down and arch their backs. If he didn't like it he'd be vary wary of the same situation again.
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Haha, usually if his tail and head go up and he begins his in-hand piaffe, I get rather distracted by how pretty he looks! He's going to go into a little field near the cattle for a few hours every evening for a few days or so and then take it from there.

He is quite the natural show-off though and likes to be admired. He has a very delicate strut which cracks me up every time!
 
I've definitely seen training that comes well and truly under the learned helplessness bracket. I don't want to derail your thread though, so I'll leave it there. :)

RE the 'dragon snort' I find that I need to get the horse's attention back on me when they do that. As they often freeze, stare and snort, getting their hooves moving again seems to defuse the situation. Turning seems to be more effective than trying to get them to move on forwards. So I ask for a turn and then once they are moving turn back to the direction I wanted anyway.
 
I have a purebred arab, he has his tail up at all times when in work, and depending on what situations we encounter depends on the height of the tail!
It's almost as if the tail goes up as a back up wing on the off chance he needs to flee ;)

With regards to your horse being worried about the cattle (or any 'thing') constantly exposing him to it until it's boring is the only way round it - just remember not to get yourself wound up about it, keep it consistent and hold on tight ;)
 
Faracat said:
RE the 'dragon snort' I find that I need to get the horse's attention back on me when they do that. As they often freeze, stare and snort, getting their hooves moving again seems to defuse the situation. Turning seems to be more effective than trying to get them to move on forwards. So I ask for a turn and then once they are moving turn back to the direction I wanted anyway.
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My arab does the dragon snort too, if it's only a minor catastrophe unfolding it's a simple blow... but the worse the impending doom the deeper the snort - he's such a drama queen ;)
 
One of my others does a weird creeping walk when she's frightened, but wants to go past the scary thing (ie we need to go past it to get home). The best way to describe it is that it's like a cat slinking away. It feels really odd to ride. She will snort sometimes, but not if she's doing the funny walk, I guess when she's trying to crouch down and silently creep past something, she doesn't feel like a loud dragon snort is a good idea? :p

RE cows, the horse discussed above is frightened of cows. She lived on a farm for a few years and got used to the cows there (never in the same field as them but would walk past the barn they were in, or could see them over the hedge), but she knows when she sees new cows, and new cows are still scary.

I do have to adjust how I help a horse when it's frightened depending on which horse it is.
 
Faracat said:
One of my others does a weird creeping walk when she's frightened, but wants to go past the scary thing (ie we need to go past it to get home). The best way to describe it is that it's like a cat slinking away. It feels really odd to ride. She will snort sometimes, but not if she's doing the funny walk, I guess when she's trying to crouch down and silently creep past something, she doesn't feel like a loud dragon snort is a good idea? :p

RE cows, the horse discussed above is frightened of cows. She lived on a farm for a few years and got used to the cows there (never in the same field as them but would walk past the barn they were in, or could see them over the hedge), but she knows when she sees new cows, and new cows are still scary.

I do have to adjust how I help a horse when it's frightened depending on which horse it is.
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Haha, the crouched waddle technique, because horses go invisible when they do that, didn't you know!

He started doing the snort that sounds like a trombone with a stutter, but half of me thinks that most of the time he just likes making that noise. T'was the snort that sounded like a high pitched wheeze that got my game face on.
 
heebiejeebies said:
I have a purebred arab, he has his tail up at all times when in work, and depending on what situations we encounter depends on the height of the tail!
It's almost as if the tail goes up as a back up wing on the off chance he needs to flee ;)

With regards to your horse being worried about the cattle (or any 'thing') constantly exposing him to it until it's boring is the only way round it - just remember not to get yourself wound up about it, keep it consistent and hold on tight ;)
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Yes, boring him to tears is the plan!

Should only take a few months!! The only thing that wound me up a bit was that he has been doing great, we were just about to head back to his field and then....Mr Cow crashes the party. Boooo! ;)
 
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