hind gut acidosis? ulcers? what!??

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pony&cow

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apoligies for yet another gastric/gut/ulcer/digestion thread but im desperate.
here goes...
my girly who ive only had for 4 months is suffering with her guts. I had her not long after she moved from ireland. she was a bag of bones but a real sweetheart and quiet as you like. got her home and introduced her gradually to our grass (old dairy grass). An upper respitory tract infection and a few months later she got laminitis but was still far from overweight. vet wasnt overly worried, very mild bout, not worth xraying box rest and bute. easy peasy! until... she started showing mild gas colic signs. no pawing or flank watching ect just really grumply and sweating up slighty round her flanks. this continued overnight as I walked her but by morning the sweat had gone just the gas noises remained and bloating. she had always had a habbit of sipping water really slowly so vet and I put 2 + 2 together and presumed gastric ulcers. without scoping she had 8 days on gastro gaurd with a follow up gastric supplement from the vet.
the gut noises reduced but didnt stop and the bloating remained. she has still got a good appetite and woofs down her soaked hay. after researching on the net I found out about the well known link between hind gut acidosis and laminitis snd.how thr acidosis needs completely different treatment to ulcers.
i feel let down by my vet after not mentioning this link and am thinking if ringing a different vet today.
does anyone have any experirnce of hindgut acidosis or any other ideas what this may be?
 
Gastrogard can make the acidosis worse. Lookup Equishure which is a very good product for hind guts acidosis. If u this she has gastric ulcers as well try RiteTrac for 30 days and then swap to Equishure for further couple of weeks and come off it and see if that helps. With RiteTrac u should see a rapid improvement within a couple of days. Btw my vet recommended RiteTrac post gastrogard as it was the only supplement he knew worked.
 
thank you so much for replying. im soooo stressed out over this!
I actually spoke to a saracen nutritionist yesterday after lots of online research (some of it was your previous posts I believe). My vet wants to scope but im not thrilled by the thought of 12+ hours starvation plus the stress of traveling to the vets. I feel like I should go with what my vet says but everything is just screaming hind gut acidosis to me!, lami, smelly poo, sentsitive flanks.
need to make a decision today really, scope or try kerx first!
dont want to delay treatment but dont want to scope unnecessarily.
 
Yep my TB gets/has it. He also had grade four ulcers which were treated with gastroguard but took a looong time to resolve.

My TB has had laminitis (only mild) in the past and now has to be very carefully managed to keep the acidosis at bay and thus any further laminitic attacks.

He was on RiteTrac which was fab but at £150 a pot that only lasted 50 days, I couldn't afford to keep him on that once my insurance was up. I now run him on sodium bicarbonate (he gets about 50g morning and night) which has prevented any set backs, and keep him on a low sugar, high fibre diet - he is kept on minimal grass until about October/November time when mine are let out on their winter field - rested since march time, not fertilised, so has gone past it by the time he goes on it and he does have a muzzle to start. He also gets Adlib haylage when in and also on his track as there isn't much grass and I do need to keep weight on him!

I also keep all of mine unshod so with him very much appreciate the impact upsetting the gut has on his feet. My management of him seems to work very well, and keeps him happy and well - we don't get anymore issues with low grade lami and he has normal well formed poo's, instead of the rancid smelling cow pats that he used to have.

If your horse does have ulcers you still need to treat, but at the same time can alter management accordingly and start a supplement for the acidosis. I feel your pain, it wasn't until my vet went on mat leave and we started with a different vet that I finally got someone that understood and helped me view my horse holistically... First vet would not believe he was getting laminitis even!!!
 
High fibre/forage and low sugar/starch diet with a decent balancer is the basic horse friendly diet. Management is also important to keep stress to a minimum. Try and ensure constant access to low sugar forage no long periods without.
There are various things that can help HA such as activated charcoal and sodium bicarb or a good herbal remedy. It can take a good while for the gut to settle so keep up the diet.

Here's a couple of links you might find helpful if you haven't already seen them.
http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.ie/search/label/hind gut acidosis
http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

I would also get a faecal worm count done and ensure worming is up to date.

ps. For the future have a look at this app and Kathryn Watts's website for how to manage grazing times to reduce risk of high sugars. http://www.laminitis-risk.com/
http://www.safergrass.org/
 
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thanks guys this is all intresting stuff. I do what I think is right as far as management is concerned. ad lib wet hay, gastric supplement from vet, aloe vera juice in feed.
going to speak to my vet again today and see if she thinks we can go down the hind gut acidosis route first ( ritetrac or suceed). I got the feeling from her the other day that the next step was scope and thats that.
 
I just dont want her to spend the night stressed out in a new place (horsey hospital) starving or spend the night at home starving then travel her to vets with an empty stomach. I know its the only way to know if theres gastric ulcers or not but im just worried if there not there already we will cause them.
do I just try the ritetrac for a fortnight first???
but then I could have wasted 2 weeks!???
arrrrgh stressed!
 
I wish I knew about the RiteTrac before I had mine scoped. Gastrogard was very expensive, it wasn't a miracle cure. RiteTrac worked for us. Ulcers isn't something to be taken lightly but if they're in the stomach they'll be in the hind gut. RiteTrac does both. Gastrogard treats stomach ulcers nothing else and can cause hind gut acidosis. do lookup Dr Ridgeway's article on ulcers. Very interesting. Specifically right hind issues, not stepping through on that leg etc, poss slight toe drag. hope you get to a decision. :)
 
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thanks again F.H.B. I had previously read that article in my hours of intetnet searching but just had another read through it.
I spoke the the saracen nutrionist who recommended equishure instead of ritetrac as she thought the symptoms were pointing more at hindgut issues, this can be given alongside my vets gastric supplement.
im ordered weds so hopefully it will arrive today. going to try to get some ph test strips to do before and after poo ph tests.
im just concerned that none of the sites I found mention bloating as a symptom!!?
I have decieded I will give her 2 weeks on the equishure and if no improvement I will have to leave it in all in the vets hands.
 
Is it worth explaining your reasoning to the vet? I wouldnt lose faith in the vet just yet, they may explain if thet have considered and ruled it out

Last time i checked vets dont bite and i am sure they will listen to your thoughts - you just need to word it in such a way that it doesnt sound like you are implying that they arent doing their best (even if you think that!)
 
pony&cow said:
thanks again F.H.B. I had previously read that article in my hours of intetnet searching but just had another read through it.
I spoke the the saracen nutrionist who recommended equishure instead of ritetrac as she thought the symptoms were pointing more at hindgut issues, this can be given alongside my vets gastric supplement.
im ordered weds so hopefully it will arrive today. going to try to get some ph test strips to do before and after poo ph tests.
im just concerned that none of the sites I found mention bloating as a symptom!!?
I have decieded I will give her 2 weeks on the equishure and if no improvement I will have to leave it in all in the vets hands.
Click to expand...

My boy had ulcers in his pyloric region, but everything I read and what I saw pointed to Hind gut ulcers as well. My vet was good in listening and we tried Sucraflate as well as gastrogard. In which case things did get better. However the RiteTrac was my miracle which he recommended post treatment. I have used Equishure during spring to stop acidosis.

My boy hated his tummy being girthed, rugged, generally moody, hated being touched, nasty stinky poos, stomping his hind feet in his stable, colicked twice (scary) gassy colic. but we had ulcers over winter so the grass wasn't in like it is now so bloated belly wont be helped by the sugary new grass atm.

Diet needs to be Fibre and more fibre all the way, low sugar, low starch.

Buy some yeasaac, brewers yeast and some micronised linseed, all good for the gut as the former are pre and probiotic helping to build back good bacteria in the gut.

Haynets with teeny tiny holes work well to ensure they don't woof all his hay in one go but last all night.

I always keep some liquid Coligone in my stable drawers in case of emergencies but so far (touch wood) nearly a year on we are good.
 
Giving eight days gastroguard does not really prove anything .
You don't know If the horse has ulcers and if it has ulcers you need to know what type it has as it may need antibiotics as well.
The next logical step is scoping .
 
thanks everyone, she's booked into the vets wednesday. Spoke to my vet again and she is adamant that scoping is the next step.
she's booked in weds afternoon for a examination to deciede if she needs to be kept in for scope thurs am but I would say 99% chance they will scope.
thanks for all the replies everyone will keep you all posted.
 
So we found grade 3 ulcers in the upper part of her stomach and grade 2 in the exit of her stomach.


For anyone researching ulcers,
The moral of the story is....
When in doubt get the horse scoped.
 
Hey well you got the results as expected right so that's a good thing. What are you doing to treat them? I had to do the whole gastro and hind gut tract hence the RiteTrac I think was so successful for us but just gastrogard wasn't.
 
Hi

My horse had excessive bloat but not ulcers or hind gut acidosis. I tried many remedies and what worked was removing her from ex dairy pasture, she just couldn't cope with digesting it and within a week the bloat was gone.
 
She's got 4 weeks gastrogard now then we go from there. No she's not insured : /
Vet has suggested a&p fast fibre which I have brought but havent started switching onto it yet.
Going to plough my field up and re-seed with a horse paddock mix.
 
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