Hind gut ulcers or something else?

[daydreamer]

hi,

I know there are lots of threads about this and I have read through some of them but I wondered what advice the current collective has.....(sorry if this ends up a bit long)

5 1/2 YO Morgan, typically a very good doer and very greedy, generally very sweet natured and you can touch him anywhere. In probably November he started being reluctant to go into trot in the school just for the 1st transition, instructor wrote it off as nothing so after an initial "hmm" moment I didn't worry.
In December he had a few days of not wanting to eat much hay in the field but I put it down to the hay/windy day/field change.

He had a week and a half off towards the end of December (due to life/weather). Then a few days work (long reined, lunged, schooled, hacked). The evening after hacking he seemed grumpy and sore in his body and I put it down to sore feet as we hadn't hacked much recently and it was probably the longest he had had his hoof boots on for a while. He hasn't done any work since. I gave him some time off but it didn't seem to help. He is generally grumpy and when I tested the ulcer points (from the YouTube video people recommend) he threatened to kick. Also sensitive around the belly in front of the flank. Both sides about the same.

I had the vet out and she agreed it sounded like ulcers. She took bloods, 2 liver enzymes came back fractionally above the upper limit.

He went to the vets on Thursday to be starved and then was scoped for ulcers on Friday. Scope was clear. The vet (4 years qualified but part of a big specialist equine practice) seemed at a bit of a loss and didn't really make any clear suggestions for what to do next. When I asked if it could be hind gut ulcers she agreed it could be and gave me some ingredients which are useful to look out for.

I'm at a bit of a loss now.

He still seems generally unsettled and isn't eating as much hay as I would expect. I have tried not to prod him and poke him too much as I don't want to make him uncomfortable. Since he went to the vets he is not eating his feeds but Sod's Law that coincided with changing from one bag of grass chaff to another, I swapped brand as I didn't think it would make a difference.

He is normally fed Equimins Advance balancer, a small handful of grass chaff, some oregano/thyme/rosemary mix and a splash of aloe vera. We moved yards in Feb, then at the start of August, then at the end of August so the aloe vera and herbs were just to try and stop any problems.

I guess towards the end of the year I became less consistent with the aloe vera as then ran out over Christmas so maybe there was an issue and that was keeping things under control just about?

There was about a week inbetween the vet visit and the scoping due to New Year so I was feeding him his normal feed plus milk thistle plus betonite clay twice a day then another small feed with aloe vera twice a day with some chamomile tea. He did seem to get less sensitive to the touch but it's hard to quantify.

He is having his teeth checked tomorrow, last checked in July. He last had the osteopath at the end of October and the saddle was checked and adjusted at the start of December (just before the short time off).

I'm going to try and buy a couple of small bales of nice hay to see if that helps/is more palatable to him.

There seem to be loads of different supplements and feeds available so it is difficult to know what is best.

Any advice/suggestions welcome!!

Thanks

 

[IrishMilo]

At this point I'd ask for a full performance work up if you're insured.

 

[rextherobber]

A yard move could be enough to cause ulcers? Aloe Vera and Brewers Yeast are both helpful with suspected hindgut. If you're not insured, I'd get back and neck , including ECVM protocol ones done. Did your vet suggest a Physio? Could have tweaked something? Could your vet ask another vet at the practice for their view ? ( this shouldn't cost you anything)

 

[daydreamer]

At this point I'd ask for a full performance work up if you're insured.

He is insured with Insurance Emporium so I have to pay 17% of all vets fees after the excess is paid. I'm having to pay for the scoping because they didn't find anything. The vets did say the scoping could be added to a "poor performance workup" but I would be worried that if they don't find anything I would have to pay for all of that too. What would you expect them to do/find in the full workup?

 

[daydreamer]

A yard move could be enough to cause ulcers? Aloe Vera and Brewers Yeast are both helpful with suspected hindgut. If you're not insured, I'd get back and neck , including ECVM protocol ones done. Did your vet suggest a Physio? Could have tweaked something? Could your vet ask another vet at the practice for their view ? ( this shouldn't cost you anything)

Yes the yard moves are regretful, I only wanted to move the once in February but then things didn't work out. He was on Aloe vera but then I got inconsistent with it and stopped (as he seemed fine) so I wonder if there was something subclinical going on which that was keeping a lid on. The vet didn't suggest physio though she did ask me when I last had one out. I need to chase my osteopath up and get her to have a look. I'll see what she thinks about having the back and neck x-rayed, the sensitivity behind the elbow, under the belly and by the flank just seems so symptomatic of ulcers (and yes I know they are often secondary :-/ ). He had his teeth done yesterday (done 6 monthly) and apparently there were some sharp points. I also managed to get some of the vets supplement into him yesterday which is mainly aimed at foregut ulcers. Weirdly in the evening he seemed much more settled and to have a better appetite. I know supplements shouldn't work that fast but I'm wondering if there are subclinical foregut ulcers/discomfort plus a bit of discomfort eating due to teeth issues. I'm going to start him on some yeast too. It's tricky because I want to throw all the supplements at him to try and make him feel better but then it is impossible to tell what is having the effect.

 

[IrishMilo]

He is insured with Insurance Emporium so I have to pay 17% of all vets fees after the excess is paid. I'm having to pay for the scoping because they didn't find anything. The vets did say the scoping could be added to a "poor performance workup" but I would be worried that if they don't find anything I would have to pay for all of that too. What would you expect them to do/find in the full workup?

I've found IE to be very good in the past.

If you go for a loss of performance workup your vet will want to see him moving and from there should be able to identify any areas that need looking at, which will give you an idea if the ulcers are being caused by something giving him discomfort (hocks/back/suspensories/SI... pick your poison).

 

[Barton Bounty]

I would also check my policy as I am
With IE and I dont have to pay 17% of anything,

 

[daydreamer]

I would also check my policy as I am
With IE and I dont have to pay 17% of anything,

I definitely do, checked before he went in to be scoped

 

[Barton Bounty]

I definitely do, checked before he went in to be scoped

Aww poop, i heard they changed it last year and after I lost BB I swithered whether to renew with them but apparently they have abolished it now. My policy definitely has nothing like that on it

 

[rextherobber]

Aww poop, i heard they changed it last year and after I lost BB I swithered whether to renew with them but apparently they have abolished it now. My policy definitely has nothing like that on it

Mine did, but to be honest, with what you save on the premium, it's still worth it, and they pay out no quibble. They paid out for a whole head and body bone scan and the required 3 day hospital stay for it, as a diagnostic tool, ( which found nothing apart from age related wear and tear) so I'd have thought your vet could word things so they accept the (much less expensive) scope?

 

[rextherobber]

Yes the yard moves are regretful, I only wanted to move the once in February but then things didn't work out. He was on Aloe vera but then I got inconsistent with it and stopped (as he seemed fine) so I wonder if there was something subclinical going on which that was keeping a lid on. The vet didn't suggest physio though she did ask me when I last had one out. I need to chase my osteopath up and get her to have a look. I'll see what she thinks about having the back and neck x-rayed, the sensitivity behind the elbow, under the belly and by the flank just seems so symptomatic of ulcers (and yes I know they are often secondary :-/ ). He had his teeth done yesterday (done 6 monthly) and apparently there were some sharp points. I also managed to get some of the vets supplement into him yesterday which is mainly aimed at foregut ulcers. Weirdly in the evening he seemed much more settled and to have a better appetite. I know supplements shouldn't work that fast but I'm wondering if there are subclinical foregut ulcers/discomfort plus a bit of discomfort eating due to teeth issues. I'm going to start him on some yeast too. It's tricky because I want to throw all the supplements at him to try and make him feel better but then it is impossible to tell what is having the effect.

Brewers Yeast worked within the first day or two for mine. Maybe the teeth were bothering him more than you'd think? One of mine had 3 edt visits a year for the first few years of owning, now its every 9 months.