Hind gut woes- WWYD?

Melody Grey

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Hi all,

Just wondered whether I could quiz you lovelies? My mare recently scoped clear from a recurrent case of ulcers and we're currently on a half daily dose of Gastrogard to wean her off it (with a week left to go).

She has been on succeed for hind gut problems for almost a month and as yet, we're not seeing any noticeable improvement (still very girthy, tail swishing, won't trot under saddle etc). Additionally, the vets have sent her home with a tub of their gastric ulcer supplement to go back on to once off gastrogard.....

So my questions are:

1. For anyone who has used Succeed for hind gut issues- how long until you saw improvement?

2. Am I being impatient- I know succeed is supposed to work within 3 months, but it's looking unlikely my insurance will pay for it for the whole 3 months due to the claim reaching it's limit both in time and financially. At £90 a month I want it to be doing something sooner rather than later!!

3. I can't jusitify £160/ month on both the succeed (£90) and vet's supplement (£70) and since the insurance soon won't be paying for any part of it....what would people look to try instead? I've heard good things about charcoal, yea sacc and oat flour. Should I stick with the expensive combo for a few months to see if it works?

We have had a full vet work up several times with this horse and can't currently find an underlying cause of the ulcers returning. She had full KS surgery in Jan 2015, so we attributed the initial presence of the ulcers to this and associated box rest.

Mince pies for anyone who got this far!! Xx
 

toulouse1

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sorry not much use to you but how are the hind gut issues diagnosed?
My gelding has recently scoped grade 1/2 ulcers and into week 3 of treatment but still tail swishy and very unhappy about saddle going on ....
 

sychnant

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It may be worth talking to Deborah Gibbins at Equine Science. My mare has just started on a course of GastroPlus and she is showing decent improvement in a week.
 

catkin

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Your vets have probably already advised you this so apologies if not relevant.
Have you reviewed your feed? lots of gut horses are sensitive to types of feed other horses can eat such as sugarbeet, alfalfa, wheatfeed and soya - many commercial feeds have these in - check the labels not the advertising blurb. You may be better off feeding 'straights' such as soaked grass nuts plus a mineral supplement (again check if there's any dodgy makeweights in them) Also check your forage for starch/sugar levels if you haven't already done so.
 

Melody Grey

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sorry not much use to you but how are the hind gut issues diagnosed?
My gelding has recently scoped grade 1/2 ulcers and into week 3 of treatment but still tail swishy and very unhappy about saddle going on ....

We did the succeed test via our vets. It's a poo test which looks for blood products created by the ulcers. We did this as a first port of call since I recognised the ulcer symptoms from before. Unfortunately it showed up nothing. It will only detect bleeding ulcers, so presumably hers weren't bleeding at the time since she scoped the following week with grade 3 gastric ulcers and has all the text book symptoms of hind gut ulcers. Hind gut ulcers are too far down to scope for.

I'd long suspected hind gut issues and when the first week of gastrogard made her symptoms worse, that pretty much confirmed it for me. I'd read something somewhere suggesting that since the GG lowers stomach acidity, partially digested food gets through to the hind gut and can cause irritation. My vets didn't seem to buy it, but it makes logical sense to me.

The succeed test was only about £30 so might be worth considering?
 

Melody Grey

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Your vets have probably already advised you this so apologies if not relevant.
Have you reviewed your feed? lots of gut horses are sensitive to types of feed other horses can eat such as sugarbeet, alfalfa, wheatfeed and soya - many commercial feeds have these in - check the labels not the advertising blurb. You may be better off feeding 'straights' such as soaked grass nuts plus a mineral supplement (again check if there's any dodgy makeweights in them) Also check your forage for starch/sugar levels if you haven't already done so.

Thanks- good advice . I have had a good old chat with the vets over this. She's currently on ad lib hay and half a scoop of hi fi molasses free (at the recommendation of the vet) morning and night with a scoop of succeed on the morning ration. She's turned out for 8 hrs+ daily.

She's a bit spooky at the moment, but we'd attributed this to the hind gut discomfort/ high winds/ being a TB mare, rather than alfalfa sensitivity.

If i took her off the hi-if what would you suggest that is unmolassed and alfalfa free?
 
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onemoretime

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How about having a chat with Alex Gingell at Hack Up Bespoke. He will be able to make you up a supplement to suit your individual horse if you tell him the problems you are having. A lot of people are now using their products including top racing yards and eventers.
 

Pearlsasinger

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You can use Graze-On, Readigrass or Just Grass dried grass chaffs, none of which contain any molasses or alfalfa. If you decide to feed grassnuts, do check the ingredients carefully. I once got a bag from my local feed merchant and when I read the label at home realised that they contained alfalfa. We have 2 mares who can't tolerate alfalfa, so that bag went back. Funnily enough though, we used to have a mare who had to have alfalfa becasue she couldn't tolerate much else.
 

catkin

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Thanks- good advice . I have had a good old chat with the vets over this. She's currently on ad lib hay and half a scoop of hi fi molasses free (at the recommendation of the vet) morning and night with a scoop of succeed on the morning ration. She's turned out for 8 hrs+ daily.

She's a bit spooky at the moment, but we'd attributed this to the hind gut discomfort/ high winds/ being a TB mare, rather than alfalfa sensitivity.

If i took her off the hi-if what would you suggest that is unmolassed and alfalfa free?

For my pony with HGA I use a few soaked grass nuts as a carrier for her supplements (approx 300gms daily over 3 feeds - she's a good doer) She's on ad-lib haylage apart from that.

When she was first diagnosed last summer the vet suggested an exclusion diet of everything except forage, it threw up some sensitivities such as sugarbeet and alfalfa.

Grass nuts are bog-standard ones from the local agri merchants. I soak them in just enough water so that they are crumbly.


ETA feel free to pm if you want more info - though of course every horse is different

If you are not already a member it may be worth joining the phoenixhorse forum. It's primarily a barefoot site but there is masses of very good discussions on managing ulcer and hind gut sensitive horses in the diet section.
 
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Achinghips

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Id try ranitidine, which is for hind and fore gut issues and also, change to either simple systems or Thunderbrooks and ad lib forage
 

Laroxes

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Id recommend Donna Blinman for hind gut issues. After years of having no luck with local vets she diagnosed hind gut dysbosis.

It's a saliva and poo sample sent to a lab in Germany to see exactly what's wrong with them. Much cheaper than long term supplements at £xx per month.
 

toulouse1

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We did the succeed test via our vets. It's a poo test which looks for blood products created by the ulcers. We did this as a first port of call since I recognised the ulcer symptoms from before. Unfortunately it showed up nothing. It will only detect bleeding ulcers, so presumably hers weren't bleeding at the time since she scoped the following week with grade 3 gastric ulcers and has all the text book symptoms of hind gut ulcers. Hind gut ulcers are too far down to scope for.

I'd long suspected hind gut issues and when the first week of gastrogard made her symptoms worse, that pretty much confirmed it for me. I'd read something somewhere suggesting that since the GG lowers stomach acidity, partially digested food gets through to the hind gut and can cause irritation. My vets didn't seem to buy it, but it makes logical sense to me.

The succeed test was only about £30 so might be worth considering?

hmm that's food for thought, my boys symptoms have not changed since the treatment for the ulcers but we are only in our third week and has had a whole change to his management so fingers crossed I see an improvement! but he is still V girthy which concerns me...
 

MCTM

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Just to say that my vets (very large, reputable equine practice) won't use the Succeed test - they haven't had good results from it. There seem to be too many instances when the results are questionable, although as you say it is difficult to prove definitively anyway. Best bet is to manage diet as though hindgut issues are the problem. I haven't had any great successes with supplements (mild improvement only) but I've changed her feed and she does seem better - though the symptoms weren't bad anyway.
 

Melody Grey

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Thanks for your responses guys- some definite food for thought. Having done some more research, I think the grass is playing a major part in this. We moved on to our winter grazing about a month ago and the problems seriously began to kick off shortly after.

Her poo is quite loose now she's back on the grass. Last week we had her starved for scoping and then in the next day only on hay as the hunt were about and her poo completely dried up, so I think the sheer amount of grass we have here is the problem...cue buying a grazing muzzle today to limit what seems to be the culprit!

Once we're weaned off the GG, I'm going to gradually introduce brewer's yeast, yea sacc and bicarbonate of soda in oil, hoping to redress the balance in her gut.

Thoughts and opinions welcomed- I've read myself silly over the past few days and it seems a sensible route forward... Wish us luck, we'll keep you posted.
 

Melody Grey

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Id recommend Donna Blinman for hind gut issues. After years of having no luck with local vets she diagnosed hind gut dysbosis.

It's a saliva and poo sample sent to a lab in Germany to see exactly what's wrong with them. Much cheaper than long term supplements at £xx per month.


Thanks for this- Donna Blinman certainly comes highly recommended, you're the fourth person to suggest her to me. If my master plan doesn't work, I'll definitely be calling her next! Googling hind gut dysbiosis brought up some veterinary papers which describe my mare's symptoms and problems to a tee, so thanks- I feel I'm starting to find a way forward now!! X
 

Melody Grey

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Just to say that my vets (very large, reputable equine practice) won't use the Succeed test - they haven't had good results from it. There seem to be too many instances when the results are questionable, although as you say it is difficult to prove definitively anyway. Best bet is to manage diet as though hindgut issues are the problem. I haven't had any great successes with supplements (mild improvement only) but I've changed her feed and she does seem better - though the symptoms weren't bad anyway.


Yes, I can see why the succeed test isn't fully approved of by vets. I guess it's fine if your case has raging bleeding lesions, but Melody's weren't. That said, and knowing this before I went ahead, I still thought it was better for £30 to try than to admit to horspital for scoping (as I have to hire transport too!), then to find nothing. I knew we'd find something, but wasn't sure what!
 

Scarlett

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I have one that scoped clear last year but was found to have hind gut inflammation - honestly you would have bet your mortgage that he had ulcers. I suggested the Succeed test but my vets don't believe it's that acurate so we decided against it. We went down the route of Equishure, a supplement for hind gut acidosis, and within 3 days there was an improvement. A month later he was a different horse and now, a year down the line, he's barely recognisable as the horse he was. I have had to manage him carefully, limit grass intake and careful diet changes, but the Equishure has made a huge difference.

I know several horses who have shown positive changes on it, all with varying symptoms. I would definitley recommend looking into acidosis and Equishure.
 

Melody Grey

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I have one that scoped clear last year but was found to have hind gut inflammation - honestly you would have bet your mortgage that he had ulcers. I suggested the Succeed test but my vets don't believe it's that acurate so we decided against it. We went down the route of Equishure, a supplement for hind gut acidosis, and within 3 days there was an improvement. A month later he was a different horse and now, a year down the line, he's barely recognisable as the horse he was. I have had to manage him carefully, limit grass intake and careful diet changes, but the Equishure has made a huge difference.

I know several horses who have shown positive changes on it, all with varying symptoms. I would definitley recommend looking into acidosis and Equishure.

Great to hear you turned the situation around :) I'm looking into a homemade equishure type of arrangement but will certainly try the brands product if I get no results. I've bought a grazing muzzle today as I think the sheer amount of grass we have in the winter paddocks here has caused this flare up.
 

nuttychestnut

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Did you see the new ulcer preventative at YHL?
It's produced by two equine vets and it was interesting to hear their view point on ulcers
 

cundlegreen

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Great to hear you turned the situation around :) I'm looking into a homemade equishure type of arrangement but will certainly try the brands product if I get no results. I've bought a grazing muzzle today as I think the sheer amount of grass we have in the winter paddocks here has caused this flare up.

First port of call for me for anything like this, is to feed them limestone powder. Alkalises the system. I use it for sarcoids as well.
 

wench

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I've used a product called aquacid before. It helped with stomach ulcers. Not sure about hind gut, but could be worthwhile looking into
 

vanrim

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Please think very carefully before using Simple Systems feed. I believe it was the cause of my problems and if you start digging around there are people out there who reported their horses colicking on the feed.
 
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