Holistic Equitation - Lessons with Derek, any experience?

[Lauren_abigail]

Hi all,

I have been recommended a lesson with Derek Clark of Holistic Equitation as I am struggling with my boy, and need to teach him (and me!) about lightness of aids.

Now I have booked the lesson, but wanted to know other peoples opinion of Derek? The lesson isn't cheap so I want to be going into this with a bit of confidence!

He came across very well on the phone, he spent a lot of time giving me the history of his teaching etc., so I am hoping it is going to be productive!!

 

[Orangehorse]

I went for what was a "taster weekend" once, and it made a huge difference to my horse, although I didn't continue as there aren't any local instructors that do this work. It was a bit mind-blowing as it is very different to other schools. For once I could feel my horse working from behind. If I had a new horse I would be looking to start off and school in this method. One thing, I do wish Derek would get some mirrors for the school, it would help so much (and he could see that he looks down when riding!!!!!!!) - actually you could say that a previous pupil wished that there were mirrors if you like!!!!

It was very intersting, it was two or three years ago, so Derek will have moved on since my visit. I was in despair as I was having problems with my horse and he promised that they would improve for the lessons, and they did.

I have seens You Tube films of riders who have obviously had lessons from other instructors and have got the wrong end of the idea, and their horses are going round with their heads in the air, which is not the intended thing at all, as with lots of things it is the "release" that is vital.

Overall I enjoyed the experience, with a couple of hiccoughs, so it is well worth going along and finding out and then deciding whether you want to go down that route or not. Just remember that all roads lead to Rome and you can take a different road if your horse needs it.

 

[philamena]

Where are you OP?

 

[Lauren_abigail]

Where are you OP?

Rugby, Warwickshire

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I am intrigued by this thread as I had a horse shown under me at the weekend that they said they were retraining through the holistic route - she was promptly decked in the ring.

 

[Lauren_abigail]

Hmm, some mixed reviews then!

Does anyone else have any other experiences?

Thanks for your reply Orangehorse, I am having Derek coming out to me as I have no transport at the moment so unfortunately no mirrors to check my position etc!

 

[Orangehorse]

I don't know if it is the "holistic" route, it is the method taught by Phillipe Karl who was at Samur, the French Equitation Centre of classical equitation.

His books are worth a look at, although not the easiest to read. When you have a really gifted rider it is often hard for them to convey their theories and methods to us lesser mortals. The story of his horse Odin is lovely, although sometimes fraught, in the French way!

"Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" was reviewed by Patrick Print "What is refreshing about the publication is while being critical, the author gives clear, reasoned alternatives. Overall, a good read!" Not outstanding praise then, but one of the themes is that German school dressage (which is what we are all doing) is fine for horses of a particular conformation, i.e. warmblood types, but that the P Karl's method can be applied to any horse of any breeding and shape.

In his book there are photos of a small horse. a Haflinger X, schooled by one of his students for one year under his guidance that "had a few notions of lateral work at walk and trot but tended to quickly overbend and rush on the forehand" was doing flying changes, passage, piaffe, Spanish walk, lateral work and jumping well. He never worked for more than 45 minutes to 1 hour a day and jumped once a week. No training aids were ever used..................

Have fun!

 

[Lauren_abigail]

I don't know if it is the "holistic" route, it is the method taught by Phillipe Karl who was at Samur, the French Equitation Centre of classical equitation.

His books are worth a look at, although not the easiest to read. When you have a really gifted rider it is often hard for them to convey their theories and methods to us lesser mortals. The story of his horse Odin is lovely, although sometimes fraught, in the French way!

"Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" was reviewed by Patrick Print "What is refreshing about the publication is while being critical, the author gives clear, reasoned alternatives. Overall, a good read!" Not outstanding praise then, but one of the themes is that German school dressage (which is what we are all doing) is fine for horses of a particular conformation, i.e. warmblood types, but that the P Karl's method can be applied to any horse of any breeding and shape.

In his book there are photos of a small horse. a Haflinger X, schooled by one of his students for one year under his guidance that "had a few notions of lateral work at walk and trot but tended to quickly overbend and rush on the forehand" was doing flying changes, passage, piaffe, Spanish walk, lateral work and jumping well. He never worked for more than 45 minutes to 1 hour a day and jumped once a week. No training aids were ever used..................

Have fun!

That sounds worth a read, I think I'll have a look into it!

The problem that I'm having with my current instructor, is she very much has a 'one size fits all' approach to training, which works beautifully for her leggy warmblood, but not so well with my Section D X... So the alternatives that Phillipe Karl talks about are of interest to me. And I like the idea of no training aids being used, I'm not a fan of strapping the poor horse into the correct position :s

 

[Lauren_abigail]

His books are worth a look at, although not the easiest to read. When you have a really gifted rider it is often hard for them to convey their theories and methods to us lesser mortals. The story of his horse Odin is lovely, although sometimes fraught, in the French way!

"Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" was reviewed by Patrick Print

Flippin heck! It's not cheap is it!!

 

[philamena]

I would try a lesson and see what you think. I'm a huge fan of the PK approach, especially with a horse where the 'one size fits all' approach is leading you towards being louder and stronger and louder and stronger with your aids and with a horse like my mare who'd been shoved around overbent forever and gradually getting heavier and more blocked in front. That route is not good and good for you for looking for another way. But I also find the totally purist PK approach a bit limiting and 'guru'-ish. The reason I ask where you are is about what options you have for instructors, because what I've found SUPER useful is using an instructor who is PK trained, but also has two other schools of training under their belt and so we can use the bits of each 'school' or approach to find what works most effectively for the horse and rider at the time. Derek is PK trained but didn't have formal training before that so you'd have less of that flexibility as an option in my experience. But if you want to know what the PK approach is about and whether it feels like part or all of your way forward then go for it, esp as he's able to come to you And yes, the books are scarily expensive, but do pop up in libraries/ second hand sometimes. The books do make a lot of sense and would be worth a ready before a lesson as the principles are pretty simple but quite different from the 'drive them rounder' approach!

 

[wingedhorse99]

I would try a lesson and see what you think. I'm a huge fan of the PK approach, especially with a horse where the 'one size fits all' approach is leading you towards being louder and stronger and louder and stronger with your aids and with a horse like my mare who'd been shoved around overbent forever and gradually getting heavier and more blocked in front. That route is not good and good for you for looking for another way. But I also find the totally purist PK approach a bit limiting and 'guru'-ish. !

I have lessons with a well known mainstream dressage trainer, and it is very much not a one size fits all approach. Part of training any horse, is getting them better at doing what they find difficult - so trainer needs many tools in the tool box. Any good trainer, of any type of riding, or school, SHOULD have a range of tools for approaching a range of physical and mental issues in a range of horses. Dressage from a good mainstream trainer is not all about getting a horse's head down and in at all costs, that would be very limited way to train and progress through the levels.

 

[philamena]

I have lessons with a well known mainstream dressage trainer, and it is very much not a one size fits all approach. Part of training any horse, is getting them better at doing what they find difficult - so trainer needs many tools in the tool box. Any good trainer, of any type of riding, or school, SHOULD have a range of tools for approaching a range of physical and mental issues in a range of horses. Dressage from a good mainstream trainer is not all about getting a horse's head down and in at all costs, that would be very limited way to train and progress through the levels.

Hi, sorry, not sure if you're taking issue with something I've said or agreeing with it! But absolutely - the best trainers, whether they'd consider themselves 'mainstream' or as subscribers to a particular approach, will adapt and use the bits of each method they're aware of to suit the individual situation and best help the horse find what it needs. I wasn't for a second describing the "mainstream" approach AS a one size fits all approach, I use mainstream trainers too, but reflecting back to the OP that they had outlined themselves that this particular trainer seemed to have a 'one size fits all' approach, and that's what it is that is not working in this case.

Limiting thinking and options creates a poorer approach whether the trainer's very traditional or completely alternative, they're equally as limiting as each other...

 

[Lauren_abigail]

I would try a lesson and see what you think. I'm a huge fan of the PK approach, especially with a horse where the 'one size fits all' approach is leading you towards being louder and stronger and louder and stronger with your aids and with a horse like my mare who'd been shoved around overbent forever and gradually getting heavier and more blocked in front. That route is not good and good for you for looking for another way. But I also find the totally purist PK approach a bit limiting and 'guru'-ish. The reason I ask where you are is about what options you have for instructors, because what I've found SUPER useful is using an instructor who is PK trained, but also has two other schools of training under their belt and so we can use the bits of each 'school' or approach to find what works most effectively for the horse and rider at the time. Derek is PK trained but didn't have formal training before that so you'd have less of that flexibility as an option in my experience. But if you want to know what the PK approach is about and whether it feels like part or all of your way forward then go for it, esp as he's able to come to you And yes, the books are scarily expensive, but do pop up in libraries/ second hand sometimes. The books do make a lot of sense and would be worth a ready before a lesson as the principles are pretty simple but quite different from the 'drive them rounder' approach!

Your mare sounds exactly like my boy, he very much feels 'blocked' in front. I have my lesson next Thursday, I'll let you know how I get on! I've been trying to do a bit of reading on the PK approach, so far what I've seen looks good and makes sense, but yes, I don't think a 'one size fits all' approach works very well with my boy!

 

[philamena]

Great - hope you enjoy it, and even if Derek's not for you there are a slowly growing number of PK-aware trainers around, and other "schools" which use similar approaches which you could also try. Look fwd to hearing how you get on!

 

[Lauren_abigail]

Hi all!

So I had my lesson last night.... Wow!

It was a very different experience to any other lesson I've ever had! Derek is very knowledgeable and just listening to him talk and the way he explains things gives a totally different perspective!

He watched me ride for a little while, and luckily Jack wasn't going brilliantly and getting very heavy and leaning etc (I say luckily as I wanted Derek to see him at his worst!)

Derek then explained to me the concept of getting him to lift himself, not just his head, but his shoulders and ribs and everything that followed. We did some exercises in walk getting him to sit back on his hocks, and the difference in the way he went, and contact was incredible.

Don't get my wrong, I felt like a bit of a tit riding round with my hands so high initially but then when Jack 'clicked' with what I was asking him to do, my hands were able to return to normal position with only small adjustments needed when he dropped.

We worked on getting Jack very sharp off of my aids and we managed this quite quickly which I was chuffed with, Jack was then moving forward or away from my leg with the slightest touch.

However it was the forward feeling I got from him that amazed me most! I finally felt like he was properly pushing from behind, and I had the forward impulsion so I didn't need to keep my leg on him at all. He felt so much more free and unblocked from his front end.

So overall, a very different but very beneficial lesson, I would definitely recommend!! And yes, I have booked another!

Thank you for all of your responses!

 

[Wheels]

Really pleased you enjoyed it

 

[Rexie]

Fantastic news

 

[philamena]

Great I call it 'crazy hands'... but the difference you achieve when you help them get their shoulders out of the way and stop them ploughing into the ground in front, how much easier they find it to be forward and how much lighter your forward aids can become - it's quite a revelation! Really glad you enjoyed it

 

[Orangehorse]

So glad you enjoyed it. I found the same feeling of my horse really using himself when I had my weekend of lessons.

 

[Kelpie]

Glad you liked it if you get the chance, you should come watch one of the Philippe Karl clinics.... I promise you, if you get to see PK ride, you will never want to ride any other way again, he's amazing. (I admit an interest here in that I am on his 2nd group of riders that he had taken on for his teacher training course in the UK......)