Home barefoot rehab support for someone please

ycbm

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I got the following message from someone who is concerned that the forum is still a bit Wild West about barefoot and that people might criticise. Please help me prove them wrong. I don't know everything and I don't like giving one to one advice to people without seeing the horse. I hope they will forgive me posting this for them, I have anonymised it.








I was wondering if I could possibly pick your brains with regards to one of my horses.

Since early this year he has been off on one of his hinds and one of his fronts.

We seem to have the hind end issues sorted, but as a result he is more lame on his fronts, picked up by Vet in September as a shoeing issue.

Different Vet has sorted the hind end, but now wants him shod with bars, pads and wedges. I want to take him barefoot, he is absolutely against me doing this, as is my partner.

The initial problem I will have with going against the Vet is that I will be seeing him monthly for follow ups. I'm a stubborn git, so not worried at all about him being cross, more that I don't want to upset him as I still want him to continue with the hind end issues. I have recently changed farriers, new farrier is great, probably couldn't give two hoots, as in whatever I decide to do he will be fine with.

At the moment he is in at night and turned out in a sand arena in the daytime. He has oat chaff and high fibre haylage to eat. He is a native x tb and a very good doer.

My questions are, do I need to change the diet before taking barefoot. He is lame so I don't think I could do anything with regards to exercise/conditioning his feet just yet. I am in a place that's pretty much frozen all winter, should I wait till Spring to take the shoes off? Would you get the feet trimmed or leave well alone for a bit? Do I keep him in until he is comfortable enough to go in the arena?

Sorry for this very long message and loads of questions. I feel so strongly that unless I do this I will be looking at pts within a year. Because I am going to get zero support I need as much information as I can before doing it.

There is probably loads more stuff that I can't think of at the moment.
 
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You are absolutely right to go down this route. Bar shoes crush the heels even more and are unlikely to provide long term relief.

PM me if you need to with the answers to any questions people ask.

What issues have been diagnosed with the hind end lameness?

Do you have access to safe flat tarmac roads? Do you have enough daylight time to walk the horse out on them if so?

Is the arena useable in hard frost?

Diet sounds good but is the chaff molassed? I would add one of the 'barefoot' supplements, personal I recommend ProHoof from progressive earth, sold on eBay, but there are others.
 
Changing the diet can be done at the same time as going barefoot. If you have the support of the farrier, then that is half the battle but he will need to be aware that the hoof shouldn't be dressed for taking a shoe, so if he's not used to doing remedial barefooting he might need to read up or seek advice.

The post reads as if not in the UK, or if is, in the furthest far-flung place so how restricted on feed stuffs is the OP? I'm never really convinced about high-fibre haylage, as it still seems to have a high rye content. I also think that for horses already with issues, it can make the gut unhappy which makes the feet worse. But that admittedly is based on issues with my horse.

Rockley is very good resource, and I would also say that if a horse is considered sound enough to be turned out, then it is sound enough to be walked in hand. This will help with the horses mental health, and will help get the feet back on track, even if hoof boots are needed.

Give barefoot a go, be mindful of the vet's opinion, but it is your horse. If PTS really is on the cards, than you have nothing to lose by trying barefoot (but be aware its rarely a quick process, and the diet/exercise is for life, regardless of barefoot or shod).
 
You don't need to cow tow to the vet. The vet is employed by you and does not know everything. No one does. Get a new vet if you're that worried. Tell them you are going to turn the horse away without shoes for a few months if you don't want to get a new vet or stand up to the current vet.

Feed a low sugar and starch diet and crack on. Horses have been walking on their own feet for hundreds of years. It's nothing new and it's not even difficult for most horses. Pull the shoes, exercise him to what he can do comfortably (that could be minutes with boots on on a soft surface or it could be ten mins walking without boots on tarmac building it up gradually). Let him self trim, make his own feet. Worry less. Enjoy your horse.
 
Don't let anyone put you off barefoot is all I would say, get doing some research and make up your own mind. Diet and exercise are super important as is finding a barefoot trimmer who can help advise/guide. Shoeing Heels or wedges never works for long (I can attest to that !) and can never be a long term remedy, try barefoot at least, you have nothing to lose !! :) You are just going to have to man up and say NO, I am doing this my own way. People annoyingly frown at barefoot, but you have got to try something before you knock it, and most people have never tried it. My lame sports horse is just so so much better without shoes and his feet look great and he is well on the way to soundness, barefoot works.
 
I have one im thinking of doing barefoot with. At the moment she is fed hay, oats, the bluegrass oat balancer with biotin, flax and beetpulp. Would her diet make it difficult for her to be worked barefoot? I'm fairly clueless about the sugar content in feed!
 
My vet had serious reservations about a rehabilitating laminitic transitioning from heart bars to barefoot. He is now completely convinced by a fully sound horse with exceptionally healthy feet. I sent him a link to the relevant authorities, in my case the Laminitis Site and asked him to discuss with my (very knowledgeable) trimmer. In other words convinced him with experience and expertise, can you not do the same? Maybe enlist a hoof care specialist who does know about barefoot (no disrespect to farriers but they always have the shoeing option at the back of their minds) and talk to Nic at Rockley?
As for diet, again, get expert help - added to trimmers etc there is Sarah at Forageplus, she is very helpful and knowledgeable about mineral supplementation and general barefoot diet. All horses are different, so what works for mine may not work in your case
 
It's hard without the support of the vet but definitely a worthwhile thing to try!

I would sort diet out before taking shoes off but then I don't think there is much to change unless the chaff is molassed.

I'm not sure there is an ideal time of year to take shoes off, I took them off mine in January without too much drama. We took shoes off (ex farrier trimmed them), Doodle went on any surface which she was comfy on (so the school was fine, but as we were re-habbing we stuck to the roads more) and then booted her for anything stoney.

Before shoes came off I had accepted she would be retired, now I have three of the darn things in work and not enough hours in the week :lol:.
 
I will add that it is a journey. It has its ups and downs and moments of frustration. I have doubted myself, cried buckets, and walked 1000s of miles over the last few months. 9 months in and 4 completely new and completely different feet. Yes, I want her frogs to improve - they seem to be taking an age but from a horse that wasn't entirely sound when trotting on the hard (ever) and having lost her super canter and looking suspiciously stiff through the hocks she is now a sound as a pound, big striding Connie. It happened one day in June. The wrinkles around her nose were there one day, and gone the next. She went from looking short in front to huge strides.

You need to find some roads, even if it's for 10 minutes to start off with, lame or not (I see he's not on box rest so movement is possible), and you need to get walking gradually building up. We went from 10 minutes to an hour over 3 months - and yes, I had a lame horse to start off with but I only did as much as she could. You need to find a physio because hamstrings and shoulders will get tight if he's footy. Let his feet grow for the first few months, he'll grow flare and he'll chip off what he doesn't need. As he heals, they'll change again. Jams had a lip on her near fore for a few months. It has now gone. Her toes are much shorter. One front is much rounder than the other, but she's sound. I think the next new complete capsule will bring yet more changes. As you progress, movement is key. I still go walking in the (dark) mornings with her over varying surfaces for 45 minutes. But everything else we do is normal - hacking, schooling, jumping (and on grass, too!).

Finally, I took the decision to strip everything out of her diet and started again with straights and a good mineral supplement. We tried Progressive Earth - she hated it. So we use Equiminns and if the rate at which her mane is growing is anything to go by, it's doing wonderful stuff.
 
I would change the diet now .
I had a great result using the winter performanace balancer from forageplus .
You should buy the Feet First book which is old so disregard the bit about seaweed we know now that's not a great thing to feed .
When you remove shoes don't trim them straight away
I would consider fibbing to vet .
Get emotional say you can't cope you miserable broke what ever and you are turning the horse away .
Then get the shoes removed and quietly start leading the horse about .
There's mountains of information on BF so get on and read it .
One word of warning you did not say or I missed it what was the hind leg issue if it was the suspenories in hock you must must be careful with self trimming because the toes must never get long so I would be getting the horse checked regularity by the farrier or trimmer .
I know it's not right to lie but TBH if it's easier and saves every bodies face and it gets you the result you want for your horse I would just do it.
 
GS Interesting about the hind suspensories, mine did hers after one summer barefoot. I put it down to hard/uneven ground and not enough road work but if I'd watched her hind toes a bit more I would have avoided the injury? Would love to hear more about that?
 
Hmmm, this was my message to ycbm :o

My answers to a few of the questions are -

I have the following surfaces available for rehab, tarmac, gravel, planings, grass, sand arena, indoor arena. However everything will freeze very soon, surprised it hasn't yet, so sand arena for turnout will not be able to be used, grass might be useable, tarmac will be useable but slippy for a bit, can box to indoor arena.

I have all the time and daylight hours I need.

Oat straw chaff is unmolassed, I use it as she is a fatty so I need to restrict haylage, so as a replacement forage. Soaking hay isn't an option in the winter as everything freezes, see above!

Farrier is coming on Monday, I have no problem going against the Vet.

Hind leg lameness is/was facet joint disease. Some of the facet joints have been medicated with good results, but there are more that need to be done, hence I don't want to flounce away from the Vet because I want him to do keep treating her back. This is a referral Vet, I have three Vets that I use routinely depending on what I want doing.

Front feet have been x-rayed only, not MRI, happy to keep x-raying feet but cannot justify taking her down for an MRI. Slight navicular changes in the feet, both Vets agree that the front lameness is a shoeing/hoof balance problem.

Front feet lameness has increased now that the hind leg lameness has been sorted, albeit for the minute.

Hocks have been x-rayed, very slight arthritic changes, hocks were medicated originally when first Vet thought that hind lameness was down to this. May well re medicate hocks when everything else sorted.

All legs scanned and no problems found. Had muscle biopsy done, all normal. History of tight hamstrings, much better now that facets have been medicated.

I have a fab physio who comes every 3/4/5 weeks.

So at the minute she is being turned out in sand arena in the day, stabled at night. If she has been having a hooley in the arena her pulses sometimes come up, arena has plenty of cut in it. She is super to box rest, but will really gallop around the field, riggin up a small area in the field doesn't work. So she can stay in, go in sand arena, get taken to indoor arena, or needs turning out in full size field. She is currently turned out with no company as she will wind the others up because she is not in work, but has contact with them when stabled.

Had her front feet blocked, one at a time, heel first then full hoof, was better but did not block 100%. But this was before facet disease was discovered. Had SI medicated, no improvement.

Less lame on soft than hard, worse on a circle.

My husband and I are planning to slow mo video her this week.

She rarely looses shoes, doesn't have brittle feet.

Gosh, sorry long post, thats everything I can think of at the moment.

I have the feet x-rays if anyone wants to see them, can't put them up here because I am useless but I can email them :)
 
Fantastic DE. Glad you've posted.

Did you like the sex change :D ? The horse is a mare folks :)

I would get the shoes off and see how sensitive she is. Buy boots if necessary. Then start walking in hand on the road, increasing the time till you get to a hour, sound on a straight line, and a heel first landing, then ride.

And straight onto ProHoof, Forage Plus or Equimins. My own preference is ProHoof but I hear good reports of all of them except for palatability with picky horses, where Equimins seems least problematic, but also has less in of stuff which I find essential where I am.
 
Fantastic DE. Glad you've posted.

Did you like the sex change :D ? The horse is a mare folks :)

I would get the shoes off and see how sensitive she is. Buy boots if necessary. Then start walking in hand on the road, increasing the time till you get to a hour, sound on a straight line, and a heel first landing, then ride.

And straight onto ProHoof, Forage Plus or Equimins. My own preference is ProHoof but I hear good reports of all of them except for palatability with picky horses, where Equimins seems least problematic, but also has less in of stuff which I find essential where I am.

Wah! Thank you :)

Can I put the prohoof in grass nuts? I presume its a powder, shes not picky at all.

If its hard and icy, do I keep her in? We're a long way off riding I would think :(
 
You might need to soak the nuts to get it to stick, but I think they soak well, don't they?

It depends how sensitive her feet are whether you let her out on ruts. You might be able to get her out in boots if she doesn't rub. But a definite no to hobbling about in a field or frozen arena.

If it's only the front feet that will stop you riding, you're possibly no more than a month at from riding in walk :)
 
You might need to soak the nuts to get it to stick, but I think they soak well, don't they?

It depends how sensitive her feet are whether you let her out on ruts. You might be able to get her out in boots if she doesn't rub. But a definite no to hobbling about in a field or frozen arena.

If it's only the front feet that will stop you riding, you're possibly no more than a month at from riding in walk :)

Yes, the grass nuts are soaked to be fed, so that sounds ok.

Don't know if its just the front feet, like I say her facets still need medicating again I would think, and then it would be extensive long and low rehab. Tbh its her last and only chance, have set a timescale for a year from now, I have a real issue with keeping a horse going that is not field sound.

ETA what make of boot do you recommend to start us off?
 
Is it worth considering Bute short term during the initial walking phase?

I feel uncomfortable about it. It will stop pain but not stop bruising, and bruising can lead to abscesses. And abscesses treated with Bute can be a nightmare and go underground for weeks. If possible, I'd prefer to keep the horse off surfaces that make it sore, but I can see that there might be circumstances where that's impossible. I'd use it only as a last resort.

The use of formaldehyde (Ketatex hood hardener) polarises opinion too. I would use it short term and only if it obviously helped the horse. Many would say never put it near a horse's hoof, and I understand why they are cautious of a powerful chemical like it. But to balance that I have never heard of any horse that has been damaged by it. .
 
GS Interesting about the hind suspensories, mine did hers after one summer barefoot. I put it down to hard/uneven ground and not enough road work but if I'd watched her hind toes a bit more I would have avoided the injury? Would love to hear more about that?

I can't say .
However while understanding that long toes exert dangerous forces on the tendons and ligaments on the front limbs is widespread the role of the long toe in hind limb problems especially with the suspensories seems to get less attention .
I think and I admit many won't agree that the self trimming mantra can lead to problems while feet transition and the big thing you need to watch is what your horses toes are doing and the hind feet are easily overlooked .
 
I feel uncomfortable about it. It will stop pain but not stop bruising, and bruising can lead to abscesses. And abscesses treated with Bute can be a nightmare and go underground for weeks. If possible, I'd prefer to keep the horse off surfaces that make it sore, but I can see that there might be circumstances where that's impossible. I'd use it only as a last resort.

The use of formaldehyde (Ketatex hood hardener) polarises opinion too. I would use it short term and only if it obviously helped the horse. Many would say never put it near a horse's hoof, and I understand why they are cautious of a powerful chemical like it. But to balance that I have never heard of any horse that has been damaged by it. .

I have used Bute in the early stages under veterinary supervision .
I am also very relaxed about keratex if it helps I use it .
 
Is it worth considering Bute short term during the initial walking phase?

I feel uncomfortable about it. It will stop pain but not stop bruising, and bruising can lead to abscesses. And abscesses treated with Bute can be a nightmare and go underground for weeks. If possible, I'd prefer to keep the horse off surfaces that make it sore, but I can see that there might be circumstances where that's impossible. I'd use it only as a last resort.

The use of formaldehyde (Ketatex hood hardener) polarises opinion too. I would use it short term and only if it obviously helped the horse. Many would say never put it near a horse's hoof, and I understand why they are cautious of a powerful chemical like it. But to balance that I have never heard of any horse that has been damaged by it. .

I have used Bute in the early stages under veterinary supervision .
I am also very relaxed about keratex if it helps I use it .

So is it a yay or nay to bute! I can keep her on a soft surface, and I can get her to tarmac via a soft surface - unless the weather goes bonkers and then it will be sheet ice!

Do I start putting something on her frogs and soles straight away as a preventative measure?
Do I measure her up for boots as soon as the shoes come off or shall I wait and see?
Do I contact a barefoot trimmer?

Texted the farrier today to say the shoes needed taking off on Monday, lets hope my husband doesn't try and argue for the remedial shoes when the farrier is here.
 
So is it a yay or nay to bute! I can keep her on a soft surface, and I can get her to tarmac via a soft surface - unless the weather goes bonkers and then it will be sheet ice!

Do I start putting something on her frogs and soles straight away as a preventative measure?
Do I measure her up for boots as soon as the shoes come off or shall I wait and see?
Do I contact a barefoot trimmer?

Texted the farrier today to say the shoes needed taking off on Monday, lets hope my husband doesn't try and argue for the remedial shoes when the farrier is here.

Many roads to Rome and all that malarkey!

I'm pro, because even slightly sore feet have such an impact on how horses hold and use themselves that I'd be inclined to try and avoid that if at all possible.

My (admittedly limited) experience of hoof boots really is not positive, so my mind set would be where possible not to use them, although appreciate that is easier said than done in many cases!
 
Late to the party ;) initial post got me a bit confused so I ran away again ;) I didn't Bute because I felt I could manage his soreness as was only on road/our drive track. If a horse was not comfortable for general life from field to stable etc I would consider buting.
We fitted him for boots when shoes came off as his flat pedal bones meant flat soles so some soreness was likely, as many experience it didn't come on until week 6 but from then he was booted for hand walking on the road for a few months, took them off when on our grassy bits - wanted him to move a bit more by then so did combo of road and grass. He also has regular physio for the time he was a bit sore.
He is odd in that those same boots still fit nearly 5 years later, we got our money's worth ;)
 
So is it a yay or nay to bute! I can keep her on a soft surface, and I can get her to tarmac via a soft surface - unless the weather goes bonkers and then it will be sheet ice!

Do I start putting something on her frogs and soles straight away as a preventative measure?
Do I measure her up for boots as soon as the shoes come off or shall I wait and see?
Do I contact a barefoot trimmer?

Texted the farrier today to say the shoes needed taking off on Monday, lets hope my husband doesn't try and argue for the remedial shoes when the farrier is here.

I would never use bute just to start getting a horse walking nor kerratex. I would make sure you have a contingency plan in case there is ice and frozen rutted ground. That sort of ground is very difficult for a newly deshod horse. They will be footsore so you will need some method of keeping her. A yard, barn, school etc. If you got iced in for a month could you cope? or perhaps you are in an area that doesn't have much ice.

I use boots a lot for newly de shod horses. I don't see any point in being limited by how far a horse can walk and over what ground without shoes. I would however wait and see. You never know what is going to happen until the shoes are off. Sometimes the most problematical ghastly feet are great and sometimes one who should sail through it has massive problems.
If you need to get over short areas of stones (to the field etc) try putting a path of old carpet down as a temporary measure.

If your farrier is good you don't need a trimmer, if he is too drastic you may well do. I would expect a farrier to remove shoes and do very little trimming. The horse will wear down any extra growth. I would expect him to discuss thrush with you and how to deal with it. If he trimmed the frog I would be expecting a good explanation. You will get some idea when you watch him remove the shoes and how he deals with the feet. Some farriers are great and will do very little, some will try and trim too much. If that happens I would stop him. It is very easy to make a horse sore by excess trimming.
 
I would never use bute just to start getting a horse walking nor kerratex. I would make sure you have a contingency plan in case there is ice and frozen rutted ground. That sort of ground is very difficult for a newly deshod horse. They will be footsore so you will need some method of keeping her. A yard, barn, school etc. If you got iced in for a month could you cope? or perhaps you are in an area that doesn't have much ice.

I use boots a lot for newly de shod horses. I don't see any point in being limited by how far a horse can walk and over what ground without shoes. I would however wait and see. You never know what is going to happen until the shoes are off. Sometimes the most problematical ghastly feet are great and sometimes one who should sail through it has massive problems.
If you need to get over short areas of stones (to the field etc) try putting a path of old carpet down as a temporary measure.

If your farrier is good you don't need a trimmer, if he is too drastic you may well do. I would expect a farrier to remove shoes and do very little trimming. The horse will wear down any extra growth. I would expect him to discuss thrush with you and how to deal with it. If he trimmed the frog I would be expecting a good explanation. You will get some idea when you watch him remove the shoes and how he deals with the feet. Some farriers are great and will do very little, some will try and trim too much. If that happens I would stop him. It is very easy to make a horse sore by excess trimming.

Thank you for your reply, yes it is very likely we will freeze for a long period of time. I can box to an indoor school, or she can have the run of the stable area. We are thinking of trying to do something with our outdoor arena to prevent it freezing over the next week.
 
Can you leave her with the run of the stable area day and night? If you can, I would, and put her hay in four corners so she moves as much as possible. Mine are in a barn at night with that arrangement and watching them on camera they probably walk a couple of miles overnight between one rack and another.
 
The thing is, hooves should be measured freshly trimmed to ascertain the size required for boots, and now most advice is not to trim/minimal trim when the shoes come off.

I've never used boots for my ponies (though I do have three pairs at home for "just in case" moments) For me there is still a lot to be improved in boots before they cam be a good replacement for shoes (if you use shoes).
 
This is worth a read http://www.hoofrehab.com/BootArticle.htm as also are the rest of Pete's articles. I have used boots to support and protect newly bare feet, with our without pads, and in our case they were the one most important tool in keeping my horse comfortable enough to continue and achieve healthy bare feet. If the ground gets frozen they will enable you to keep on exercising and movement is important in hoof rehabilitation. Not to mention cheaper than modifying the surface itself!
It is worth talking to the boot specialist at one of the sites that sell them - Carolyn at The Urban Horse was my helpful go to person but there are plenty of others. Explain what you want them for, and they will advise on the best fit.
 
I was told to leave my boys feet for a good few weeks before the first trim and then measure for boots ... I never have although Im wobling about the whole BF thing at the moment so think boots should be brought before i go back to shoes!
 
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