Honest opinions needed. OCD - What would you do?

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cookster1975

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I am posting on behalf of a friend, who would very much value some honest opinions on her situation. She bought a horse (TBxCob) in June, He was 4 in May and is about 16.3/17hh. He has just been diagnosed with chronic OCD of both stifles. X Rays have been looked at by Liphook and he has been given a 50:50 prognosis on a full recovery. My friend wants to hack, sponsored rides and enjoys doing the odd jump.

Insurance have said they'll pay up to £3k towards op, with £400 already being used in medication, vets visits and x rays. Op and recovery is realistically going to cost £5k+.

My friend is very emotionally attached to her boy and is having an agonising time trying to decide the best course of action (operation or pts). Given the prognosis, what would you do and do any of you have any experiences (good or bad please) of this operation/condition?

Here is the boy himself:

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Stifle swelling

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How he stands (slightly cow hocked is it)?

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Finally (sorry so long) the breeder has been contacted and is POSSIBLY willing to have him back.

Thanks for reading - bloody great glass of wine if you made it!
 
Ohh I am soo sorry. I had a horse last year that had OCD in its stiffle joint. With the opp they were saying he would only every go in the field and he was only 11 years old and miserble when not in work. So I did what was best for him and PTS :( :(

If they think he will be okay to be ridden then maybe worth a go with the opp but in my opinion a very serious conversation with vets are in order.

I am soo sorry about this it is terrible. OCD can be caused by a mineral problem as a foal. Totally devistating you and your friend are in my thoughts and if you need to chat PM me on here
xxxx
 
I feel so sorry for your poor friend. That stifle is HUGE!!

I think that the vets have over-estimated the cost of the surgery and recovery personally.

My Filly had OCD in both stifles which was diagnosed within weeks of having her home. she had treatment (and repeated Xrays) for 6 months until we decided on surgery. Her case was the worst the surgeon at the RVC had seen and the surgery and hospital stay didn't come to more than £1500. Recovery was long and in her case, I was advised that she would never be more than a light hack so, after another 6 months, I opted to take her breeder up on her offer and did a swap. I was told she would have a home for life. I have since discovered that this might not be the case. She is aparently sound and quite happy in the field and I understand that she might be backed (now 4).

If I was in your friends shoes I would have it out with the vet - tell them what her budget is for surgery - follow up treatment is relatively cheap TBH - Bute and maybe injections into the affected area, its the xrays that mount up, but these can be minimised. I don't know why they have given her such a high price?!! I would go for surgery and be prepared for a VERY long recovery - eventually (after box rest) allowing at least 6 months to a year out at grass. If the horse isn't sound at the end of it, I'm afraid I would have him PTS. I have learnt that 'home for life' means very little. Even to some breeders who you would think would have an emotional attachment to something they bought into the world.

Sorry I sound so blunt. This wrecked my head for well over a year and still does from time to time. Ask if you want to know more.
 
annunziata said:
Ohh I am soo sorry. I had a horse last year that had OCD in its stiffle joint. With the opp they were saying he would only every go in the field and he was only 11 years old and miserble when not in work. So I did what was best for him and PTS :( :(

If they think he will be okay to be ridden then maybe worth a go with the opp but in my opinion a very serious conversation with vets are in order.

I am soo sorry about this it is terrible. OCD can be caused by a mineral problem as a foal. Totally devistating you and your friend are in my thoughts and if you need to chat PM me on here
xxxx
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Thank you.x

Really sorry you had to go through that - it's an awful decision to have to make isn't it? We have been going over and over and over it and are still undecided :(

Vets will only say it's guarded (50/50) prognosis.
 
CBFan said:
I feel so sorry for your poor friend. That stifle is HUGE!!

I think that the vets have over-estimated the cost of the surgery and recovery personally.

My Filly had OCD in both stifles which was diagnosed within weeks of having her home. she had treatment (and repeated Xrays) for 6 months until we decided on surgery. Her case was the worst the surgeon at the RVC had seen and the surgery and hospital stay didn't come to more than £1500. Recovery was long and in her case, I was advised that she would never be more than a light hack so, after another 6 months, I opted to take her breeder up on her offer and did a swap. I was told she would have a home for life. I have since discovered that this might not be the case. She is aparently sound and quite happy in the field and I understand that she might be backed (now 4).

If I was in your friends shoes I would have it out with the vet - tell them what her budget is for surgery - follow up treatment is relatively cheap TBH - Bute and maybe injections into the affected area, its the xrays that mount up, but these can be minimised. I don't know why they have given her such a high price?!! I would go for surgery and be prepared for a VERY long recovery - eventually (after box rest) allowing at least 6 months to a year out at grass. If the horse isn't sound at the end of it, I'm afraid I would have him PTS. I have learnt that 'home for life' means very little. Even to some breeders who you would think would have an emotional attachment to something they bought into the world.

Sorry I sound so blunt. This wrecked my head for well over a year and still does from time to time. Ask if you want to know more.
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Thank you for your reply, this is the sort of really helpful info we need.x
 
My horse was diagnosed with ocd both hocks as a 4 yo, ten yrs ago.
He was so bilaterally lame behind, he looked like he just had a lazy action, and i missed it. Sometimes he went great, other days awful.
he had also been very agressive and a handful under saddle, initially i put it down to testing youngster behaviour, but subsequently found it was due to his pain, after he threw himself to the ground with me on him rather than go forward.
I chose to give him every oppertunity to try to "come right "mainly due to his age at diagnosis.
Insurance paid for injections twice, and also meds and remedial shoeing. I then, further down the line paid for more injections and a course of tildren. I roughly tallied it up in my head to have paid over £6000 including the insurance money which was about £3000. He cost me £1,500
He was only ever suitable to be a light hack, which was rubbish as he wasnt wired to be a hacking horse.
We persevered and he was maintained on danilon to allow light work, he is still a bit sore if he goes uphill and starts to feel it after 20 mins if hes on hard
ground, he still has a swinging leg lameness.
I gave up after about 4 years as he was sore on hard ground even hacking.
I still have him as a field ornament, he's a nice easy going lad who is happy pootling about in the field with his mates, sometimes i watch him in the field
and on the soft ground he looks not to bad, but a life mooching around a soft school would have driven him nuts, so he retired, still maintained on danilon.
I was in a position to keep him and ive other horses to ride.
If he was my sole horse, and money restricted me from getting another, i honestly think id have had him pts. I certainly would not have sold on, or gave
away to an uncertain end. I know that might not sit well with some, but walk a mile in the shoes of people going through this with one horse and no riding, with extra expense and worry, you may think differently.
We spend alot of time, effort, energy, and money to keep our horses, and to
not be able to ride, while still having all the hard work, worry and extra expense is alot to ask of anyone.
Good luck with your treatment, i do hope ypu have a good outcome for your friends horse.
 
I know this is a tough thing to say but your friend also needs to speak to the insurance company regarding the value of he horse if she was to PTS. My insurance company backed me 100% as the value of the horse was lower than the vet fees :( :( :( :( And because he would never come sound and potentially go down in the field to never get up the vet also said it was the right decision. I had to think with my head not my heart which was a nightmare.

definately have a heart to heart with the vets re the costs as well. My vets quoted me I think 2.5K for the opp plus the aftercare. TBH the opp was never an option as it was soo bad.

It also really depends on what your friend wants to do with him, if she only wants to hack him out lightly then he should be fine.

keep us posted
xxx
 
Hi, thanks guys I'm so grateful for your replies.

Insurance company have said they wouldn't pay for death if he's put to sleep (£1600) but would pay for op (£3000)? Figure that one out if you can! Perhaps she should talk to them again and try and reason with them. They have been brilliant up until now it has to be said.
 
Liverpool only charged me £2000 for both stifles. The insurance paid I only had to pay a couple of hundred or so for livery. £5000 sounds a silly price.
 
Liphook charge ridiculous prices it has so be said. They are my local vet and nothing comes to under 3k it seems!!
Can't she see about referring him somewhere else cheaper?
He is young and 50/50 is pretty good odds really considering that's a return to full health.
If it was my horse and I could do it within the insurance money I would do it, I would however PTS if anytime during the recovery I was told it wouldn't get better or he was really suffering.
I think she needs a massive long convo with the vets. Liphook are good but I hate the way they ask 'is he insured' straight away! Makes you think!
 
hi. my horse was diagnosed with stifle OCD almost exactly a year ago-one stifle was really bad (he was 3 legged lame sometimes) and very slight in the other. prognosis wasn't good-especially after surgery when they couldn't do much as the lesion was so big. due to the awful winter he had nearly 4 months box rest before starting IRAP and rehab. when he was re-examined in July he was 2/10 lame. he's now been back in light, regular work (and is out 24/7 with his mates) .some days he's better than others but he's mainly bute free and pretty happy with his lot.
I thought long and hard about having him PTS so I could have another riding horse (I have an older pony and a 2yo also) but decided to give him a year and to keep him if he was a happy pasture ornament. he's 9, I've had him since a 3yo. I wouldn't condemn anyone for making the tough decision though, so much depends on personal circumstances.

go to a university, generally they are not for profit and so cheaper plus have all the toys. the stifle op was 'only' ~£1500. The IRAP was £400 but I had to fork out for transport as because it was a big joint, they insisted he went to hospital for them. the total bill including initial workup was £4K ish
 
My 5 year old is now 14 weeks post op and is trotting sound and even on both back legs, with some localised swelling on the bad leg. She had bilateral OCD but one side was much worse. The surgeon said he would be very diasapointed if she didnt make a full return to work so fingers crossed. The bill was £3800 which also included some work on her front feet and several visits xrays, nerve blocks etc (I have already paid out for bone scan £1200). Her insurance covered £3500 and it was worth every minute of the credit card bill. The actual cost of the op plus the stay and follow up was around £2600. She's going to start her exercise tomorrow (i.e walking around the arena) Yah:)
 
I have often noticed if you get treatment from a university it's always seems much cheaper than the vets might be worth your friend exploring if this would be the case for her.
 
Sharon (my friend) has contacted Langford which is more local to us. (Horse has only been in a box once in his life and she was worried about travelling him from Bristol to Liphook). They have said they can do the op within the £3000 insurance payment and have asked to see the x rays, so they are being emailed over Monday.

It will be good for her to have a second opinion. I just hope they are honest about the likelihood of a full recovery. It seems the majority of cases I read about the horse seems to develop further problems i.e. arthritis, recurrence etc, but perhaps I am just being pessimistic?

Orionstar - that's great news, fingers crossed for you both.x
 
I am going to be brutally honest because you do not own the horse and you can moderate what I write for your friend. Although he is very sweet looking, her horse is very badly put together. He is badly back at the knee in the front legs, has a flat back and hips with a low wither and a low/upside down set on neck with a very upright shoulder. His hocks are too straight. He is a great big heavy fellow too, if he is 17 hands. All those things are going to make it much more difficult for him to recover to a working life and make it more likely that he will have further problems in the future.

I would not personally spend more on him than the insurance is prepared to pay, or what she can afford to flush down the drain.

I don't mean to be rude, but I hope some blunt speaking actually helps.
 
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OCD is a horrible cruel condition. My horse suffered with it in his hocks for years carrying on working and enjoying himself whilst it was under control and he was comfortable. At that point it was diagnosed as bog spavin and he was kept in work and given a joint supplement.

First he stopped jumping. Then he stopped galloping. Then he stopped cantering. Finally something went catastrophically wrong as we hacked out earlier this summer and he could no longer trot. The vet's x rays confirmed terrible joint trauma which was a shock to everyone who knew me and him. He had cortisone injections in both hocks but in a few weeks he couldn't even walk with out trailing his toes along the ground. He also lost his "spark" and then I knew what I had to do.

He spent the summer out and grass whilst I loved him and explained to him what was going to happen and he was pts on 8th Sept at the age of 14. My heart remains broken because he was the light of my life.

I would not buy a horse with any signs of OCD at all but if I had my time again I would do exactly the same even though it has left me in debt.

So my advice is keep the horse comfortable following the vet's advice. When the horse has had enough it will show you.
 
The thing to remember about OCD is that it starts in very young horses. It is a growth disorder. If it doesn't show symptoms at this early age - and it often doesn't - then little chips are left in the joint to cause problems later on. When a horse isn't diagnosed until he's 8 - or 10 - or older, thejoint may be damaged beyond reasonable repair.

But in a 4 year old who has done relatively little work you can be fairly optimistic about surgery giving a good result - and if the actual joint is clear - there should be no long-term effect.
 
I had a 6 year old diagnosed with bilateral stiffle OCD, the vet who operated said it was one of the worst cases he had seen. He had 9 months box rest and gradual return to work, he was back to competition work 12 months after the surgery but 6 months after that the problem returned. He was very unsettled retired so he was PTS.

To be honest I would not put a horse through that again, not because of the bad outcome in this case, but because of the prolonged box rest. It drove him totally nuts.
 
JG I think you have a good point.

Booboos. I am sorry about your loss. In my experience, while box rest is important initially I think vets tend to put too much emphasis on it and perhaps, after the initial post op recoup of say 8 weeks, most cases should be allowed out to mooch about on level pasture. while recovery might take slightly longer, their minds stay sounder!... I dunno.

This is a tough call but my bottomline point is absolutely no to sending back to breeder. If I were in the same situation again I'd operate and PTS if horse didn't become sound after 18 months.
 
CBFan said:
Booboos. I am sorry about your loss. In my experience, while box rest is important initially I think vets tend to put too much emphasis on it and perhaps, after the initial post op recoup of say 8 weeks, most cases should be allowed out to mooch about on level pasture. while recovery might take slightly longer, their minds stay sounder!... I dunno.
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The experience has tended to make me a lot more sceptical about box rest. While I don't doubt that it does the world of good to horses that remain calm, those that can't take it are as likely to injure themselves in the stable as in the field (or even more likely). This particular horse had 5 months of box rest and then the vet said he should start walking out, hacking 10 minutes each day. He had a full dose of sedaline but he was still extremely dangerous both to himself and others.

Nowdays if a vet says box rest I discuss if we could do a pen in the field instead and so far the vet has agreed it would be as good.
 
cookster1975 said:
Hi, thanks guys I'm so grateful for your replies.

Insurance company have said they wouldn't pay for death if he's put to sleep (£1600) but would pay for op (£3000)? Figure that one out if you can! Perhaps she should talk to them again and try and reason with them. They have been brilliant up until now it has to be said.
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It's because he does not have to be put to sleep for humane reasons. They will only pay out if he is PTS because he is suffering. Most horses can happily live in a field with OCD. It is to guard against people just putting horses to sleep when they could be retired just for the insurance money.
 
cptrayes said:
I am going to be brutally honest because you do not own the horse and you can moderate what I write for your friend. Although he is very sweet looking, her horse is very badly put together. He is badly back at the knee in the front legs, has a flat back and hips with a low wither and a low/upside down set on neck with a very upright shoulder. His hocks are too straight. He is a great big heavy fellow too, if he is 17 hands. All those things are going to make it much more difficult for him to recover to a working life and make it more likely that he will have further problems in the future.

I would not personally spend more on him than the insurance is prepared to pay, or what she can afford to flush down the drain.

I don't mean to be rude, but I hope some blunt speaking actually helps.
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I have to disagree with the shoulder comment. It Looks nice and sloping to me. Also he may be a little back at the knee but I think it is a dark smudge that makes it look that way and he is not too bad. Yes, he has low withers but most cobs do. I agree that he is flat backed, but actually I quite like the line of his hind legs.

OP I would go with the operation, but find a more reasonably priced hospital.
 
Thank you again for all your replies. Sharon has been speaking to the breeder again today, she rang this morning and said she hadn't been able to sleep last night and didn't think it was fair for Sharon to be dealing with these problems. She has offered to have him back and give Sharon her money back. She is going to have him assessed by her vet and take it from there.

I know CBfan says no to going back to breeder but she sounds really genuine. My only concern is that she would try and sell him on again but tbh with the size of his stifles now I don't think anyone could miss the problem.
 
Booboos said:
The experience has tended to make me a lot more sceptical about box rest. While I don't doubt that it does the world of good to horses that remain calm, those that can't take it are as likely to injure themselves in the stable as in the field (or even more likely). This particular horse had 5 months of box rest and then the vet said he should start walking out, hacking 10 minutes each day. He had a full dose of sedaline but he was still extremely dangerous both to himself and others.

Nowdays if a vet says box rest I discuss if we could do a pen in the field instead and so far the vet has agreed it would be as good.
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Same here!!

OP I really feel for your friend. I hope the breeder is as genuine as she thinks she is. It's a horrible situation to be in and I know the feeling all too well. It took me a year to make my decision and unfortunately I regret it as I know the filly in question is up for sale. Again, hopefully her misshapen joints will put potential purchasers off.
 
Wagtail said:
I have to disagree with the shoulder comment. It Looks nice and sloping to me. Also he may be a little back at the knee but I think it is a dark smudge that makes it look that way and he is not too bad. Yes, he has low withers but most cobs do. I agree that he is flat backed, but actually I quite like the line of his hind legs.

OP I would go with the operation, but find a more reasonably priced hospital.
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Well we'll have to agree to disagree on the conformation :) Just to explain where I am coming from though, my experience is that shoulders usually match the angle of the pasterns and I believe that his solid colouring on his shoulder is partly hiding the fact that it is as upright as his front pasterns are. I allowed for the smudge and to me he is pretty severely back at the knee, the line is far from true. There is, on the other hand, a black patch just above the hocks which make his hind leg look better than it is if you do not white it in.

I'd send him back to the breeder OP, now that you have a serious offer and genuine concern being shown.
 
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