Hoof advice - part 2

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gryff

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Hi all.
4 weeks ago I started this thread:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?734906-Hoof-advice&highlight=Hoof+experts
About a little arab whose vetting gave me cause for concern. Anyway, I bought her and she's been with me for 4 weeks today and is an absolute delight. She was a complete blank canvas, other than being lead around; she'd never been off the farm on which she was born and had never seen any traffic.
We've been hacking in hand every day around my yard. It's in a busy village on the outskirts of Swansea, so a real culture shock for her, but she's taken everything in her stride. I don't plan to back her until next spring, but she's had a bit in and a saddle on, without batting an eyelid. Anyway...
Her foot and pastern conformation isn't great - very upright. My farrier has trimmed her and said that he doesn't want to lower her heels very much because he thinks that will cause more problems than it'll solve. He also said she's got strong, hard feet and I'd be a fool to shoe her. She probably wouldn't need trimming very often either. I've taken some photos - the ones on the right are from 3 weeks ago and the left, yesterday after a trim. She's out all day on not great pasture and in on ad-lib hay at night. She's eating speedibeet, just grass, linseed and pro-hoof morning and night - I've just added half a small scoop of soaked grass nuts. If anyone has any thoughts I'd be very, very grateful.




This front right is the nastiest looking in terms of being more upright and it's base narrow. I'm hoping, as Ester suggested on my original post, that all my in hand walking may change its structure.
Thank you in advance.
 
The experts will come along and tell you about the hoof pictures. But I must say what a pretty girl she is!!!!! And feet look strong and tidier after the trim. I think she will go barefoot if this is what you want for her.

I can see why you went for her, what a sweetie, she seems to be settling in nicely and is taking things in her stride - perfect! What a lovely bond you will have with her by the time you come to either back her or ride her.
 
What a shame that her hooves are out of frame in the side on photo.

One thing to note is that you shouldn't let the farrier trim her frogs unless you've got ratty bits hanging off and even then, they should be sparing with what they take off. Taking too much frog off can make a BF horse footy.
 
She is a very pretty girl both my Arabs have a slightly more upright foot in front but mine are shod in front, best thing is to treat them as individual feet and not try to make them a pair and not letting the toes get long mine are shod every 5 weeks, if your leaving her barefoot I agree trimming the frog and too much sole can make them sore, it would have been nice to see pictures of her feet front and side on so you can get a better idea of the angles.
 
Faracat said:
What a shame that her hooves are out of frame in the side on photo.
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My thought too you left the important bit off OP!

I think they look a lot better for 3 weeks in your care, and not just for the trim.
Farrier sounds like a good egg ;) I also suspect he won't need to take frogs off next time as they should settle down more now but something to keep an eye on. I'd give the central sulcuses, particularly on the fores, and the right ;) a squirt every so often with red horse sole cleanse and carry on as you are :)
 
Lovely little horse with feet that look very, very strong, as upright feet often are (I think I said so on your previous thread?)

I don't think, with her feet and your farrier, you'll ever need to shoe her.
 
your feet take me back to one of my arabs. They are so similar. He did tens of thousands of barefoot miles over 20 plus years. You are very lucky. All you need to do with them is perhaps clean the central sulchus on the last picture, ride as much as you can and run a sanding block around the edges to keep them smooth. Lovely easy low maintenance feet.

beautiful horse. As I said before you are very lucky.
 
Aarghhhhhh...three times I've replied to this thread and it's lost it!

Thank you all for your comments. She is a pretty girl...much more araby in her head than my previous mare. She's so calm and willing, really does not live up to any stereotype about Arabs (not that I subscribe to those anyway). Every new thing we've come across she just quietly contemplates and accepts, usually seeing if she can eat it 😀.

Faracat and Ester - I can't believe I didn't put a photo with her whole legs in...I'll see if I can attach one now. I take on board about the frog trimming and will keep an eye.
Pinky boots...my farrier said the same about trying to make them a pair...let nature take its course and he'll make any changes very gradually.
Ester...I hope I'm making positive changes. We're walking everyday over a variety of terrains and she's coping with all surfaces. It would be nice if this is reflected in subtle changes in her feet. I'm intending to photograph one a month or so to see if I can see changes. She's been having a dollop of gloomy neem oil mixed with tea tree and eucalyptus in her sulcuses. A spray would be more convenient (and I won't have that stink of neem hanging around!).

Paddy555...I hope I'll be saying that about her in 20 years time. The one foot in particular is not pretty to look at though and, even though the vetting didn't think it was a major issue at all, long term soundness does worry me. I just want to maximise her chances of having an active ridden life.

Thanks again all. I'll try to add more photos of her legs and hooves.
 
She's a lovely little mare! Her shoulder angle is beautifully laid back. Her pasterns do not match at all, which for me clearly show that they are not what she is meant to have. If you get her working on abrasive surfaces and get the mikes in, my being I'd that in one year's time, they will be completely different.
 
ycbm said:
She's a lovely little mare! Her shoulder angle is beautifully laid back. Her pasterns do not match at all, which for me clearly show that they are not what she is meant to have. If you get her working on abrasive surfaces and get the mikes in, my being I'd that in one year's time, they will be completely different.
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Thank you- that's what I wanted to hear! I have told everyone I'm going to do a version of cani-x with her and go running with her eventually. She's such a pleasure to walk out, I don't mind pounding the roads and bridleways with her at a all. Thanks for your input again, and your kind words - I'll keep you updated.
 
theres a decent improvement already looking at the photos 3 weeks apart. I agree with your farrier, don't shoe. if she gets some road work and regular farrier care her feet should improve vastly. I agree with the statement that in a years time they'll be totally different. Shes a lovely mare , well done on your purchase :-)
 
gryff said:
Thank you- that's what I wanted to hear! I have told everyone I'm going to do a version of cani-x with her and go running with her eventually. She's such a pleasure to walk out, I don't mind pounding the roads and bridleways with her at a all. Thanks for your input again, and your kind words - I'll keep you updated.
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Please do. If you are looking for guesses how she got that way, mine would be that she had a long term central sulcus infection and has been walking on her toes to avoid it and ended up with stacked heels. It's a much better problem, barefoot working wise, than splat feet. But my experience is that stacked heels take longer to resolve, so you won't be seeing the six week miracles we sometimes see, but you'll be very pleased in a year.

you have a SUPERB farrier!
 
It's funny looking at those pictures reminds me of one my Arabs we had him from a 2 year old and his fronts were not a pair and his near side front was the boxy foot he was not shod until I started hacking when he was 5, the only reason I did put shoes on was that the tracks were hard with big stones on top and he just didn't cope, I recently got another gelding which is quite closely related and he has the same front feet but his boxy foot is not so noticeable, I have often thought about taking the front shoes off both of mine have good feet apart from them not being a pair, your little mare is really lovely I am a sucker for a bay Arab both of mine are bay and look fairly similar I will look forward to hearing about her, I would put some pictures of mine on here but have no idea how to do it.
 
Pinkvboots said:
It's funny looking at those pictures reminds me of one my Arabs we had him from a 2 year old and his fronts were not a pair and his near side front was the boxy foot he was not shod until I started hacking when he was 5, the only reason I did put shoes on was that the tracks were hard with big stones on top and he just didn't cope, I recently got another gelding which is quite closely related and he has the same front feet but his boxy foot is not so noticeable, I have often thought about taking the front shoes off both of mine have good feet apart from them not being a pair, your little mare is really lovely I am a sucker for a bay Arab both of mine are bay and look fairly similar I will look forward to hearing about her, I would put some pictures of mine on here but have no idea how to do it.
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I'd love to see pictures - upload to photobucket, click share and then copy the IMG code for sharing to forums - dead easy!
 
Coming to this conversation late ... horse is stunning by the way.

However the reason she has boxy feet is because the toe has been pulled very forward, which in turn pulls the quarters in.

I trimmed a clients appaloosa that had feet worse than those, took a long time for heels to open up and the toe to stay back ... but it works.

Once foot is in correct place everything just starts working correctly. Toes that long (I don't mean height I mean forward) will mean it's affecting the horses breakover and her whole gait and tendons.

Definitely worth getting it fixed ... i have lots of pictures of horses like this who have improved :) can't work out how to add them though!!
 
Sorry :) basically front feet should be as close as possible to round ... there are several ways they can deviate. Quarter flare which would bring the toe back behind the optimum point. This is most common on hinds.

Or a stretched toe which takes the toe and breakover forward and infront of the optimum point for breakover. This is most common in front feet.

Any flare or stretch of the wall pulls the sole out and thins it so it's important to get it back. Also if the breakover is too far forward it can damage tendons etc.

Both are easily fixed with trimming as it looks like you are on your way to doing :)

I hope that's has explained a little better
 
Wild are you a professional trimmer? Can I ask from which country?

There is an alternative point of view among many trimmers in the UK about flare.

Flare where there is a stretch of the white line is generally a diet or metabolic issue able to be fixed by diet changes out treatment for the metabolic problem.

Flare where there is no stretch in the white line is generally an adaptation of the foot to a lack of straightness in the leg or body above it. Removing that kind of flare can make a horse more lame, not less.

This blog also shows how it is unnecessary to trim away either kind of flare. The horse will do it for itself in increments instead of step changes, if allowed to.

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com
 
wild at hoof said:
Sorry :) basically front feet should be as close as possible to round ... there are several ways they can deviate. Quarter flare which would bring the toe back behind the optimum point. This is most common on hinds.

Or a stretched toe which takes the toe and breakover forward and infront of the optimum point for breakover. This is most common in front feet.

Any flare or stretch of the wall pulls the sole out and thins it so it's important to get it back. Also if the breakover is too far forward it can damage tendons etc.

Both are easily fixed with trimming as it looks like you are on your way to doing :)

I hope that's has explained a little better
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Wild at hoof are you a professional trimmer? Can I ask if you are in the UK?

There is a widely held alternative point of view to this which I will try and explain.

Flare where there is stretch on the white line is a diet or a metabolic issue. It can't be fixed by trimming, only by diet or treatment for the metabolic issue.

Flare where there is no stretch in the white line is an adaptation of the hoof to a lack of straightness in the limb or the body above it. Removing that flare can make a horse less sound.

There is no need to trim either kind of flare, the horse will resolve it for itself given the right wear (which can also be done with road work), as can be seen in rockleyfarm.blogspot.com
 
It doesn't really explain it, no. I'm familiar of course with the concepts you talk about but I'm still no clearer about what toe forward is. I'm also with YCBM about flare - it's not always a bad thing and I certainly don't aspire to have my horses hooves looking conventionally aesthetically pleasing. A sound, functional hoof can have flare.
 
Lovely mare! She has a great conformation and the feet are very similar (better) to a mare I have now. They look boxy but that's only because she was allowed to "self-trim" for 5 years... will get photos later.

It's a slow process but your mares feet WILL look different with work and correct trimming. You must try and strike a balance between work and trim so that the heels widen but not get too long either. Keep an eye on the toes. The sole looks to me to be very thick so you have lots to work on. I think the frog may need trimming little by little because to me it looks as if the frog has been allowed to grow down to meet the ground as the heels have grown away from the ground if you see what I mean. More abrasive surface work, more sympathetic trimming and work.

The diet you have is exactly the same as mine so snap! lol! Seems to keep my three on the road and rocks.
 
AMP said:
The experts will come along and tell you about the hoof pictures. But I must say what a pretty girl she is!!!!! And feet look strong and tidier after the trim. I think she will go barefoot if this is what you want for her.

I can see why you went for her, what a sweetie, she seems to be settling in nicely and is taking things in her stride - perfect! What a lovely bond you will have with her by the time you come to either back her or ride her.
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Wow, really, she's lovely!

rr
 
tallyho! said:
Lovely mare! She has a great conformation and the feet are very similar (better) to a mare I have now. They look boxy but that's only because she was allowed to "self-trim" for 5 years... will get photos later.

It's a slow process but your mares feet WILL look different with work and correct trimming. You must try and strike a balance between work and trim so that the heels widen but not get too long either. Keep an eye on the toes. The sole looks to me to be very thick so you have lots to work on. I think the frog may need trimming little by little because to me it looks as if the frog has been allowed to grow down to meet the ground as the heels have grown away from the ground if you see what I mean. More abrasive surface work, more sympathetic trimming and work.

The diet you have is exactly the same as mine so snap! lol! Seems to keep my three on the road and rocks.
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I think the frog should meet the ground. If the horse wears its feet shorter, the frog will pack flatter. There is only a danger if someone trims height of the hoof wall and gives the frog too much pressure.
 
ycbm said:
I think the frog should meet the ground. If the horse wears its feet shorter, the frog will pack flatter. There is only a danger if someone trims height of the hoof wall and gives the frog too much pressure.
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Yes I agree and I see what I have written there doesn't make sense... thanks ycbm...

To clarify, I perhaps didn't mean "allow" as in it isn't natural, I mean it has been allowed to grow unchecked, with the hoof wall at the heel, which has also been allowed to grow unchecked - it's the frogs job according to Pete Ramey, Jamie Jackson and Nic Barker (in their books) (and also my experience thus far) to support and it will find support wherever it is. So, in a shod horse you will see the frog try and grow down all the time and a farrier just slices it off each time.

Over time, as the hoof wall at the heel has grown down slightly faster than it can wear it down (pasture only/no abrasion/no trimming - can also happen with the toe) the sole and wall are "artificially high" here in this example.

So, I hope you're still with me, the lack of stimulation and abrasion to keep this worn down has resulted in a sole that is "artificially" too deep, a heel that is "artificially" too high and a frog that is "artificially" too long. You can see that inside P3 will be tipping up at the caudal heel because of it. What I'm trying to say is that, sensitively and slowly adjusting the height of all three will, over time slowly allow the P3 to come to a more even plane and the heel, sole and frog to settle in a more natural position. Trimming hoof wall without also shaving off frog to alleviate pressure will definitely be a problem but the sole also needs to be addressed. I'm talking mm's here not cm's (unless you like to work that way but I like to do it bit by bit).

I agree where flare exists, it's there to support, but also, it's good to recognise when it's hampering progress.
 
Incidentally, if you trim flare and it doesn't return the horse didn't need it for support. However flare self replicates so if you leave it with out fixing he cause it won't just go away.
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It's my experience that it does just that - go away. I've seen it happen time and again in person, and you can check the rockley blog photos where it happens time after time.
 
tallyho! said:
Yes I agree and I see what I have written there doesn't make sense... thanks ycbm...

To clarify, I perhaps didn't mean "allow" as in it isn't natural, I mean it has been allowed to grow unchecked, with the hoof wall at the heel, which has also been allowed to grow unchecked - it's the frogs job according to Pete Ramey, Jamie Jackson and Nic Barker (in their books) (and also my experience thus far) to support and it will find support wherever it is. So, in a shod horse you will see the frog try and grow down all the time and a farrier just slices it off each time.

Over time, as the hoof wall at the heel has grown down slightly faster than it can wear it down (pasture only/no abrasion/no trimming - can also happen with the toe) the sole and wall are "artificially high" here in this example.

So, I hope you're still with me, the lack of stimulation and abrasion to keep this worn down has resulted in a sole that is "artificially" too deep, a heel that is "artificially" too high and a frog that is "artificially" too long. You can see that inside P3 will be tipping up at the caudal heel because of it. What I'm trying to say is that, sensitively and slowly adjusting the height of all three will, over time slowly allow the P3 to come to a more even plane and the heel, sole and frog to settle in a more natural position. Trimming hoof wall without also shaving off frog to alleviate pressure will definitely be a problem but the sole also needs to be addressed. I'm talking mm's here not cm's (unless you like to work that way but I like to do it bit by bit).

I agree where flare exists, it's there to support, but also, it's good to recognise when it's hampering progress.
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I'm with you :)
 
if the break over was bought back at the toe to where it should be, not only would the hoof grow down to where it should be but because that was then not influencing the rest of the hoof the sole and white line would no longer be stretched and the quarters would be allowed to move out to where they should be.
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But the hoof doesn't grow down to where it should be because you chop back the toe. It grows down to where it should be by changing the angle at the top through diet and graduated work and removal of shoes.

I do agree that bringing back the toe will make some horses move better. But my experience is that it will happen whether you trim it back or not, as the angle changes at the coronet band and that change grows down.

PS I'm not the original poster who asked for comments, it sounds like you think I am?
 
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