Hoof CC - Calling Barefoot Taliban!

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JHC

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A little background - 4 year old TB mare. Hasn't had the easiest of lives and neither does she make it easy for herself! This is apparent in the numerous event lines, but hopefully everything will start to calm down from now on.

She's had a fronts on for 6 months - they were taken off yesterday, previous to that she was field kept for a while, then before that she had a full set while being broken (I bought her from the field).

She is a poor doer. Ad lib hay and Mollichaff Calmer with Saracen Show Improver Pencils. When in work I add some Topspec Balancer. Turned out as much as possible. If the weather is OK then she's out 24/7.

She's just recovered from a abscess in her near hind, and this morning revealed a lovely new frog.

So here's the photos.....

Off-Fore
OffFore-1_zps44ee8ae3.png


Near-Fore
NearFore-1_zpse16b7434.png


Near-Hind - Vet had to dig the abscess in the toe out, and the rest blew out from the heel and frog.
NearHind-1_zps6bb945ee.png


Off-Hind
OffHind-1_zps7527931d.png



So, I know I'll need boots for her when she comes back into work, but which would you recommend?

Also please tell me you CC, good and bad!
 
Considering the Saracen Pencils are 20.9% starch alone, I am not surprised by the ripples on the hooves or recent abscess.
I would be interested in Xrays on the fronts to see if there is any rotation as the external signs certainly indicate such.

I worry about what spring may bring.

Frogs are weak and need to beef up - movement will sort that.

I think you may need to review diet to get the best out of his hooves in the next few months.
 
Potentially lovely big frogs. They just need work. No contracted heels :)

Heels on the front (esp off fore) look a bit long but nothing a trim won't solve.

There's a bit of separation of the white line but not surprising on the diet she's on.

Her previous diet has really damaged her feet. It's hard to tell what they'll be like until it grow out.

What they really need is a good diet and work on hard surface and lots of it. She need to grow out the old dodgey wall and just generally strengthen everything.

Have at rethink about her diet. Molli chaff is just straw coated in sugar: there are far better weight gain chaffs available. Last thing she needs is lots of molasses. Her event lines (slightly wider at the heel)suggest she's had a little low grade laminitis so be careful.

What kind of work will she be doing? You want her to work without boots as much as possible but she must be moving comfortably otherwise her feet will not improve. What boots depends her measurement and the work she'll need them for.
 
Oberon said:
Considering the Saracen Pencils are 20.9% starch alone, I am not surprised by the ripples on the hooves or recent abscess.
I would be interested in Xrays on the fronts to see if there is any rotation as the external signs certainly indicate such.

I worry about what spring may bring.

Frogs are weak and need to beef up - movement will sort that.

I think you may need to review diet to get the best out of his hooves in the next few months.
Click to expand...

Oh Gosh! And I've just ordered another bag... That will be going in the bin along with the mollichaff.

The vet was out last week and I got him to check all hooves in case of other abscesses but nothing was mentioned about her fronts - a second opinion will be seeked.

Kallibear said:
Have at rethink about her diet. Molli chaff is just straw coated in sugar: there are far better weight gain chaffs available. Last thing she needs is lots of molasses. Her event lines (slightly wider at the heel)suggest she's had a little low grade laminitis so be careful.

What kind of work will she be doing? You want her to work without boots as much as possible but she must be moving comfortably otherwise her feet will not improve. What boots depends her measurement and the work she'll need them for.
Click to expand...

She'll just be doing hacking, some tracks are stony but majority is tarmac and mud!

I've signed up for the nutritional course so I've got a lot to learn, but for the good.

What feed would you advise?
 
I would be extremely concerned about feet like that on a 4 year old. There are clear metabolic issues and other people are advising you about diet, but I have never seen bullnose feet on the front before except in chronic laminitics.

I would hope that a change of diet will sort her out - you might like to note that anecdotally many barefooters do badly on Top Spec balancer and a friend of mine has a horse that is dreadfully itchy if fed it.. If she still has feet of that shape in six months time, especially if she has any issues with tying up, reacting to wormers, or access to grass, then I would consider having her tested for EPSM.

Meanwhile if she is a bad doer then I would suggest that you adopt the EPSM diet, high oil plus vitamin E and very low sugar, in any case as I don't see that it can do any harm.
 
I haven't personally come across ESPM but some symptoms do tie in. She has no topline - and very little muscle. Very hard to put weight on.

Im going to completely take her off her feed until I can sort out a much better diet I think?

From Oberon's PM and your post cptrayes - is it safe to go with fast fibre, micronised linseed and pro balance.

Cptrayes how should I add the oil and vit E into this safely?
 
I have a horse with lgl, she was already on a low sugar high fibre diet but I have stripped it back even further and also taken her barefoot with a trimmer instead of the farrier.

She get Fast Fibre with Global herbs globalvite, micronised linseed.
Also at times of frosty grass and will give it when spring grass starts laminitis prone and alpha bute if needed.

We have gotten so far and the progress is slowing so now looking at gastic issues poss hind gut with her.

She hasnt been tested for metabolic issues but has some signs of IR so is treated as such.

This was her hind feet before:

Taken as a 5 year old, the bull nose shape had started but I didnt know it was associated to diet.
DSCF4544.jpg


Then as a 6 year old after starting barefoot:
The big event line was after a bad bout of lgl and the catalyst to going barefoot!
DSC_2108_zpsfa9a7df5.jpg

Then now 5 months later: A bit flaired but was before the last trim.
DSC_2214_zps96f42cc3.jpg



Just to give you an example of how much diet influences feet.
I too would be concerned with your horses feet and would def start by looking at diet. I would also see if you can get a barefoot trimmer recommended to come out and see you and advise as it is so much better for someone to see whats going on in real life photos only give an idea.
Good luck with it all.

ETA. I also soak half of her hay ration. She shares a field with 2 others and has a round bale in the field but comes in at night and has 12 hour soaked hay.
 
JHC said:
I haven't personally come across ESPM but some symptoms do tie in. She has no topline - and very little muscle. Very hard to put weight on.

Im going to completely take her off her feed until I can sort out a much better diet I think?

From Oberon's PM and your post cptrayes - is it safe to go with fast fibre, micronised linseed and pro balance.

Cptrayes how should I add the oil and vit E into this safely?
Click to expand...


Thumbs up to your base diet.

I feed my hunter 400 ml of oil just for for the calories with no trouble. I buy Tesco vegetable (rapeseed) oil at £1 a litre. Add a little and build up to 4-500ml a day over a couple of weeks. Speedibeet will take it up quite well.

Vitamin E I found cheapest from Simplysupplements.com, human gel capsules. Feed a minimum of 12,000 iu (international units) a day. Just cut the capsule up into the feed.

If she is really picky eating, I am finding that my boys are absolutely wolfing down the Polish brewer's yeast from Charnwood Milling. A 25g sack lasts one horse 500 days.
 
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National Research Council black book on nutrient requirements of horses says: "vitamin E does not appear to be toxic to horses even at relatively high intakes, and the upper safe diet concentration is set at 1,000 iu/kg DM (NRC 1987). However, this presumed upper safe limit is based on observations in other species. Coagulopathy and impaired bone mineralisation have been reported in other species consuming diets above the upper safe level (1,000 iu/kg DM, NRC 1987)."

So basically what they say is that at present they think the upper safe limit for vitamin E is the equivalent of 10,000 iu per day for a 500kg horse on a 2% body weight diet. ...... but that we don't know, because those limits have been set based on other species.

I wouldn't consider going up to those kind of levels unless I really believed there was a significant problem caused by vit E deficiency.

My belief is that all horses/ponies require vitamin and mineral supplementation - the UK forage is commonly deficient in selenium and copper, although this is not universal. My preference is to stick to a well established supplier of horse feeds - one who has a good reputation, and needs to ensure they supply appropriate feeds in order to keep that reputation. My choice would be TopSpec, Spillers or Dodson & Horrell.

Well worth ringing any of these 3 and asking to speak to their nutritionists, and hear their suggestions for your horse.

Whatever's going on feetwise, vits/mins are essential whether in a young horse or an older one.

Sarah
 
Oberon said:
Considering the Saracen Pencils are 20.9% starch alone, I am not surprised by the ripples on the hooves or recent abscess.
I would be interested in Xrays on the fronts to see if there is any rotation as the external signs certainly indicate such.

I worry about what spring may bring.

Frogs are weak and need to beef up - movement will sort that.

I think you may need to review diet to get the best out of his hooves in the next few months.
Click to expand...

Not arguing the diet....but my mare abscessed 3 times in the first 4 months going barefoot and she was started at Rockley and had a totally 'barefoot' diet.....don't want to put the cat amongst the pigeons but its not unusual is it (from what I read) for newly barefoot horses to abscess? I'm not convinced that it isn't caused by the 'purest' route of going barefoot without the aid of boots....we are now using boots (after 5 months of abscesses and footyness) and we now seem to be getting somewhere....:)
 
flintfootfilly said:
National Research Council black book on nutrient requirements of horses says: "vitamin E does not appear to be toxic to horses even at relatively high intakes, and the upper safe diet concentration is set at 1,000 iu/kg DM (NRC 1987). However, this presumed upper safe limit is based on observations in other species. Coagulopathy and impaired bone mineralisation have been reported in other species consuming diets above the upper safe level (1,000 iu/kg DM, NRC 1987)."

So basically what they say is that at present they think the upper safe limit for vitamin E is the equivalent of 10,000 iu per day for a 500kg horse
Click to expand...

I can't make your arithmetic add up??

1,000iu/kg for a 500kg horse is 500,000iu a day, not 10,000 surely??
 
cptrayes said:
I can't make your arithmetic add up??

1,000iu/kg for a 500kg horse is 500,000iu a day, not 10,000 surely??
Click to expand...

..love to hear your comment on my post...I'm a bit of a barefoot novice really...learning fast though as all six barefoot now....pasture paradise being installed too:) xx
 
abailey said:
Not arguing the diet....but my mare abscessed 3 times in the first 4 months going barefoot and she was started at Rockley and had a totally 'barefoot' diet.....don't want to put the cat amongst the pigeons but its not unusual is it (from what I read) for newly barefoot horses to abscess? I'm not convinced that it isn't caused by the 'purest' route of going barefoot without the aid of boots....we are now using boots (after 5 months of abscesses and footyness) and we now seem to be getting somewhere....:)
Click to expand...


My own experience is that it varies by the severity of compromise of the foot and by the horse. The two horses that I have done with the most badly damaged feet both abscessed, one in one front and the other in both fronts, one twice.

I have had two horses for the last two years on exactly the same diet, both rock crunchers, but for some reason that I simply cannot fathom, one abscesses in one forefoot or the other every 6 to 9 months and always has in the four years I have owned him.

I'm not sure that boots are anything but co-incidental, they spend most of their time with none on even if they are used when they work. I suspect it's more to do with the 6 months it takes to build complete integrity in the white line and the personal susceptibility of that horse to abscesses.

I do think boots are invaluable in getting horses with compromised feet working and moving, and my first barefooter made a lot more progress more quickly once Boa were kind enough to start selling boots big enough for his feet :)
 
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cptrayes said:
My own experience is that it varies by the severity of compromise of the foot and by the horse. The two horses that I have done with the most badly damaged feet both abscessed, one in one front and the other in both fronts, one twice.

I have had two horses for the last two years on exactly the same diet, both rock crunchers, but for some reason that I simply cannot fathom, one abscesses in one forefoot or the other every 6 to 9 months and always has in the four years I have owned him.

I'm not sure that boots are anything but co-incidental, they spend most of their time with none on even if they are used when they work. I suspect it's more to do with the 6 months it takes to build complete integrity in the white line and the personal susceptibility of that horse to abscesses.

I do think boots are invaluable in getting horses with compromised feet working and moving, and my first barefooter made a lot more progress more quickly once Boa were kind enough to start selling boots big enough for his feet :)
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Thanks :)...my mare is now in the new equine fusion and they seem to suit her well. What is your opinion/experience of barefoot and navicular.....can it 'cure' her? I'm hopeful and very committed to barefoot :) x
 
My personal experience is that I have returned to full work, jumping, hunting, winning elementary dressage a horse that was booked in to be put to sleep because of his poor quality of life. He had a navicular diagnosis based on xrays and had been badly lame for more than a year.

I have just hunted my second "proper" (medical diagnosis) rehab and if he hadn't kicked his own back leg in his excitement he would have been completely sound today. He had been lame for 4 years, even after being barefoot in the field as a paddock ornament for a year.

Work is crucial to these rehabs.


I believe from my ongoing monitoring that 80% or more of horses with a navicular diagnosis can be completely cured by removing the shoes IF the owner is able to provide the right environment, work and feeding. Not all owners are lucky enough to be able to do that.
 
cptrayes said:
I can't make your arithmetic add up??

1,000iu/kg for a 500kg horse is 500,000iu a day, not 10,000 surely??
Click to expand...

That's ok. Good to clarify, because it does get confusing when concentrations are sometimes given in units per kg bodyweight and sometimes in units per kg dry matter (ie dry matter in the diet).

DM is the abbreviation for dry matter, so indicates that the concentration relates to the amount of vitamin E in a certain weight of food - Sorry, I should probably have put DM in full the first time I used it in my post.

So when NRC says:

"vitamin E does not appear to be toxic to horses even at relatively high intakes, and the upper safe diet concentration is set at 1,000 iu/kg DM (NRC 1987)

... it means that, assuming that a horse is eating 12.5kg hay a day, this will be 10kg dry matter of hay a day (assuming the hay is 80% dry matter), and so the supposed upper safe amount of vitamin E in this horse's diet would be 10,000 international units (IU) of vitamin E per day.

Hope that clarifies it.

Sarah
 
That's interesting Sarah. I wonder how that stacks up with the dietary advice for EPSM sufferers that they are fed 12,000 - 30,000 iu of vitamin A a day? I know of a horse which has been on an added 12,000iu, plus what is already in his food, for 3 years with no apparent side effects.
 
Blimey, I thought the dose of vitamin E was 2,000- 3,000 iu daily. I didn't know such high levels were recommended for EPSM etc.

ps. That's for a big horse not a pony obviously.
 
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abailey said:
Not arguing the diet....but my mare abscessed 3 times in the first 4 months going barefoot and she was started at Rockley and had a totally 'barefoot' diet.....don't want to put the cat amongst the pigeons but its not unusual is it (from what I read) for newly barefoot horses to abscess? I'm not convinced that it isn't caused by the 'purest' route of going barefoot without the aid of boots....we are now using boots (after 5 months of abscesses and footyness) and we now seem to be getting somewhere....:)
Click to expand...

I was responding to the OP though, who's horse is clearly showing (from those pics) metabolic issues.
 
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