Hoof gurus- upright hooves

[Michen]

I had some recent x rays done of my rising 6 year old connemaras hooves (summer x rays on left, recent on right). He had been diagnosed with mild bruising last summer via mri, shoes were removed and he was rested and slowly bought back into work with no problems. He was completely self trimming and has been for 6 months.

As you can see from the x rays his hooves have become more upright and broken forward. They were also pretty “wonky” for some time but levelled themselves out mostly- and were very slightly rasped by farrier to shape them a little better. He has now been shod (in order to stud, as he is starting to event shortly and doesn’t do well on certain ground), he was also getting slightly footy with increased roadwork but it’s inpossible to build this up slowly without turning back on yourself which would not be a sensible idea for a previously nappy horse.

Vet is of the opinion that if we lower the heels he is likely to become sore, and that we need to shoe sympathetically to his “preferred” balance and not interfere too much, with a short shoeing cycle.

I am concerned as to how/why he has become more upright. His issues last summer, bruising likely from concussion, may have been due to issues in hind feet (seedy toe) meaning compensation. But I worry that now his feet are even more upright that he will be even more predisposed to concussion problems.

Can anyone share experiences with upright feet like this? The horse is going better than ever before but I’m concerned his feet may get the better of him but I’m unsure what else to do as he essentially created these feet more upright himself whilst barefoot. Perhaps they match his conformation?

Confo pic

 

[Pinkvboots]

Both my horses have a slightly more upright boxy foot I have read somewhere it can start when they don't load that foot the same as the other one my vet has also said this, my horse went lame last year on his more upright hoof and it did get worse while he was lame, his now sound but he was diagnosed with slight changes in the navicular bone so I took his shoes off and his back in work now barefoot and the foot shape has improved.

Bearing in mind your horse has had foot issues you might find now his sound and weight loading them normally they will improve in time, upright feet can also affect the shoulder if you look at the muscle at the top of the shoulder you often find the muscle will be smaller on the side of the more upright foot again because they tend to favour the other leg and not weight load evenly.

 

[tda]

Can't comment on the xrays but I know that barefoot ponies of often have shorter/smaller hooves.

I am also of the opinion that they grow the foot that suits them x

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes Tatts has upright feet and ‘too much ‘ heel he’s eighteen now and moves effortlessly between shod and unshod periods of work.
He’s is also very long limbed and narrow in his frame he wears natural balance type shoes when he is shod . He’s got great soles depth .
We often discuss taking some heel off and the farrier does conservatively trim it when he’s bf .
His feet work for him .

 

[Michen]

Sorry all- to be clear- both feet match. They are equally upright

 

[ycbm]

Dupe.

 

[ycbm]

Upright feet aren't an issue but a broken forward hoof pastern axis is. I'm very sorry to say it, Michen, but at the time of your diagnosis last year I did not think your vets had the full story. It seemed unlikely to me that everything you experienced was due to only bruising and a bit of seedy toe in a newly broken five year old.

I suspect that somewhere in his body he is not actually right. If he was mine, I would be hiring the piece of equipment that my vet has which identifies where a horse is lame when it is too subtle to see.

Meanwhile, I'm afraid, I would suggest that jumping or any other hard work of a young horse whose feet bones are out of alignment like that is asking for further lameness. It is not something I would even contemplate.

I'm sorry that's not going to be what you want to hear, but I suspect it is what you fear or you would not have posted. I hope to be proved wrong.

 

[Michen]

Upright feet aren't an issue but a broken forward hoof pastern axis is. I'm very sorry to say it, Michen, but at the time of your diagnosis last year I did not think your vets had the full story. It seemed unlikely to me that everything you experienced was due to bruising and a bit of seedy toe alone in a newly broken five year old.

I suspect that somewhere in his body he is not actually right. If he was mine, I would be hiring the piece of equipment that my vet has which identifies where a horse is lame when it is too subtle to see.

Meanwhile, I'm afraid, I would suggest that jumping or any other hard work of a young horse whose feet bones are out of alignment like that is asking for further lameness. It is not something I would even contemplate.

I'm sorry that's not going to be what you want to hear, but I suspect it is what you fear or you would not have posted. I hope to be proved wrong.

I think other than a bone scan I'm not quite sure what more diagnostics could have been done. He had pretty much everything x rayed, was worked up by both my vet and Liphook, etc etc.

I suppose I'm also looking at this from the perspective that last year I had an unhappy horse under saddle- currently I have a horse who is thriving the more he does, happy in his work, feeling super.. but his feet look worse? I'm not sure what to make of that.

Do you feel he was broken forward in the hoof pics from the summer? How does one correct a broken forward hoof pastern axis (lets assume nothing elsewhere can be found to be causing a problem...)

 

[ycbm]

I'm not suggesting your vets did anything wrong. Sometimes there are no answers.

Conventional wisdom says you would drop the heel and raise the toe, but that would require remedial farriery which I am no fan of.

He's six, still looks like parts from more than one horse, (as you've said yourself), and has not had a good start in terms of soundness. I'm afraid if he was mine I'd be thinking of turning him away for a year to grow into himself and grow two to three more sets of feet with minimal trimming. Then x ray and see what you've got.

I really think if you continue to jump him and go on to event him this year, there's a serious risk that he won't last into double figures.

The trouble with these sports Connies is they are like eager dogs. They love their work so much that their enthusiasm will overcome all sorts of issues. I've seen it with my friend's, who is built very much like yours with a similar temperament. Here's ten this year and has just started running out at his fences.

I would love nothing more than to be wrong.

 

[Michen]

Agreed, though he is muscling up nicely (I feel), and most importantly- evenly- which is why I cannot understand the changes in his feet. I'd expect that if there was a problem it would be reflected- somewhere- in muscle tone.

He wasn't particularly eager last year- but he is now- which is why I felt that overall something positive must be happening as the horse as a whole has a much happier outlook.

I'd be interested to know what Rockley would do with a broken forward HPA- as I have followed the general Rockley consensus (self trimming and work over plenty of varied surfaces- inc roadwork) and this is the hoof the horse has produced.

Perhaps I should have sold him to you when you offered- any horse with me is clearly doomed

I'm not suggesting your vets did anything wrong. Sometimes there are no answers.

Conventional wisdom says you would drop the heel and raise the toe, but that would require remedial farriery which I am no fan of.

He's six, still looks like parts from more than one horse, (as you've said yourself), and has not had a good start in terms of soundness. I'm afraid if he was mine I'd be thinking of turning him away for a year to grow into himself and grow two to three more sets of feet with minimal trimming. Then x ray and see what you've got.

I really think if you continue to jump him and go on to event him this year, there's a serious risk that he won't last into double figures.

The trouble with these sports Connies is they are like eager dogs. They love their work so much that their enthusiasm will overcome all sorts of issues. I've seen it with my friend's, who is built very much like yours with a similar temperament. Here's ten this year and has just started running out at his fences.

I would love nothing more than to be wrong.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Sorry all- to be clear- both feet match. They are equally upright

Yes when I looked at his picture more closely I did see that his feet are a pair what will say is both of my horses have been lame on the leg that has the more upright foot and the problem was the hooves both times, probably not what you want to hear

But as I said before because his had bruised feet he has obviously not been loading correctly which can make them grow more upright, as his sound now they might in time grow into a better shape my horses upright foot is definitely a better shape now.

 

[Michen]

Yes Tatts has upright feet and ‘too much ‘ heel he’s eighteen now and moves effortlessly between shod and unshod periods of work.
He’s is also very long limbed and narrow in his frame he wears natural balance type shoes when he is shod . He’s got great soles depth .
We often discuss taking some heel off and the farrier does conservatively trim it when he’s bf .
His feet work for him .

Did you ever x Ray them GS?

 

[DabDab]

I'd say along the same lines as pinkvboots - he's muscled up dramatically in 6 months and that will have substantially changed the way that he moves. His feet as you have them now are probably in more of a transitional state and will change again quite a bit as they respond to his new way of going and the angles may well relax out to were they should be.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

What do his frogs and the back of his feet look like? Is he landing heel first or not? Have you video'd him, a lá Rockley, to find out?

 

[Michen]

What do his frogs and the back of his feet look like? Is he landing heel first or not? Have you video'd him, a lá Rockley, to find out?

Here’s a pic though it’s a month or so old. Yes he lands heel first, and also evenly despite the imbalance you see on photo. Haven’t videod him now he’s shod so that was correct as of a month ago when that hoof photo was taken.

 

[Michen]

DabDab

I think this is my vets feeling too. I spoke to him at length again today (he is one of the vets at the practice that first started referring horses to Rockley). He reminded me that last summer I had a lame, uncooperative horse and currently I have a sound, co operative horse whose feet have been left to change as they wish. His feeling is that the feet may well change again, and that we have to be sympathetic to any changes and not try and force them to look how we would like them to look.

The one thing I will say for the horse is he is very good at displaying an opinion when there is any element of soreness whether it’s saddle/back/teeth or in last summers case feet. I would like to think that if there was any soreness creeping in there that it would become obvious but who knows- maybe he’s loving work enough now to cover it up.

 

[Hallo2012]

personally (and we have 5 horses on the yard in varying degrees of work who largely self trim and only need a rasp running round for 30 secs to tidy any chips) i am great believer in that they grow the foot they need at that point in time.

i wouldnt panic, i would continue as you are and monitor any changes in feet muscles and attitude closely.

our most recent joiner was shod before we bought him and had been shod VERY heel high behind and as a result was cramped over the SI, roach backed and very base narrow when stood up.

shoes off and lots of steady walking road work and although he has boxy feet by nature his heels have dropped, back has relaxed, jumpers bump is nearly gone and he stands up square.............gentle work and observation can really help the horse adjust their own bodies if given a chance.

 

[ycbm]

I just want to point out something, not to you Michen, you should follow what your vet is telling you. But for other people reading this thread in future.

Self trimming and current comfort levels is not the issue here. The issue is that it is proposed that this horse is shod to increase its competitive workload jumping at speed on unlevel surfaces.

There is a hell of a lot of difference between boxy, upright feet (which I have found to be the easiest to transition to barefoot) and ones where the bones are not straight inside the foot.

There is no point whatsoever taking comfort from people telling stories of how horses with upright feet are sound and went on for years. They usually do.

But horses with a broken back hoof pastern axis on x ray - a different kettle of fish altogether. Every time a horse with a broken back axis puts its foot to the floor, it is bending that joint even further out of alignment. Jumping will put a huge strain on it and all the surrounding ligaments and tendons to stop it over-extending.

To use a horse with that foot bone alignment for serious competitive sport at six, imo, is asking for a permanently lame horse at eight.

Michen, I hope you prove me wrong and wish you luck.

 

[ihatework]

It’s rare I agree with ycmb but on this occasion I’m pretty much there!
I actually really like your horse. I think looking at his upright shoulder it is to be expected that he should be more upright in his feet. It’s not a bad thing necessarily, just how he came out of the box. If you have even feet, even muscling, and a happily working pony then you are doing a grand job.

The new X-rays would really worry me from an alignment POV and long term soundness. I’m not sure what to tell you to do, but my gut feel is that this pony doesn’t need to be galloping over anything other than perfect going anytime soon

 

[Michen]

I just want to point out something, not to you Michen, you should follow what your vet is telling you. But for other people reading this thread in future.

Self trimming and current comfort levels is not the issue here. The issue is that it is proposed that this horse is shod to increase its competitive workload jumping at speed on unlevel surfaces.

There is a hell of a lot of difference between boxy, upright feet (which I have found to be the easiest to transition to barefoot) and ones where the bones are not straight inside the foot.

There is no point whatsoever taking comfort from people telling stories of how horses with upright feet are sound and went on for years. They usually do.

But horses with a broken back hoof pastern axis on x ray - a different kettle of fish altogether. Every time a horse with a broken back axis puts its foot to the floor, it is bending that joint even further out of alignment. Jumping will put a huge strain on it and all the surrounding ligaments and tendons to stop it over-extending.

To use a horse with that foot bone alignment for serious competitive sport at six, imo, is asking for a permanently lame horse at eight.

Michen, I hope you prove me wrong and wish you luck.

Totally understand what you are saying. But I keep going back to the point- when his foot balance looked better he was lame. Now his foot balance looks worse and he is sound. Surely that has to come into play too? I’m trying to look at the horse as a whole here and take into account what I feel under saddle, his attitude to work, his general overall picture and it’s a much happier one than last summer.

If we hadn’t x rayed the feet we would never have known, if I was posting photos of his upright feet and saying they had been self trimming all winter and the horse was going better than ever- what would your opinion be then? The x rays were only done really out of curiosity.

It’s so difficult to decide what to do- I have finally found a vet who I very much trust and what he says makes sense- he thinks this horse will continue to change foot balance as he matures and strengthens and that if every time he altered shape he was turned away the cycle would simple start again as he re strengthened, re gained muscle etc.

Lots to think about.

 

[ihatework]

Mitchen sounds like you have a good vet.
I wouldn’t turn him away, I’d keep chipping away at his work but I’d probably put eventing on the back burner this year. See if you can get the HPA in better alignment first. I have no strong feelings on whether the horse should be shod/unshod for that process but I do think the wonky balance he has created himself unshod might be telling.

 

[Hallo2012]

again i can only speak personally but i would listen to the horse.

i would keep up current work level, monitor his body feet and attitude and if you want, x ray again in 6 months.

as you correctly point out not ALL boxy footed horses get x rays so how many of those sound forever sorts actually dont have a textbook angle? a lot i would guess.

given the improvement i am not sure realistically what else you CAN do? other than continue with your work, and see how he copes (or not). as someone else has pointed out im not sure remedial shoring will keep him sound long term anyway, so if he cannot work to a reasonable level shod, and cannot work to a reasonable level BF................there is the long term answer.

i wouldnt be increasing work dramatically, just keep on doing what you are doing for now and see.

 

[Wagtail]

I've not read the other responses yet but my first concern would be the right hind. If you look at the other coronet angles, they are pretty well matche but then the right hind is steeper with very low heel and a slightly dropped pastern. He is also sickle hocked which will be placing more than normal strain on the distal ligaments. I agree with ycbm. I would not be jumping this horse, lovely though he is.

 

[wingedhorse]

I've not read the other responses yet but my first concern would be the right hind. If you look at the other coronet angles, they are pretty well matche but then the right hind is steeper with very low heel and a slightly dropped pastern. He is also sickle hocked which will be placing more than normal strain on the distal ligaments. I agree with ycbm. I would not be jumping this horse, lovely though he is.

Are you basing comments on right hind, just on the conformation photo in this thread. As I think feet can look very different in different photos.

 

[Michen]

I've not read the other responses yet but my first concern would be the right hind. If you look at the other coronet angles, they are pretty well matche but then the right hind is steeper with very low heel and a slightly dropped pastern. He is also sickle hocked which will be placing more than normal strain on the distal ligaments. I agree with ycbm. I would not be jumping this horse, lovely though he is.

The right hind was where he had seedy toe which he arrived with and a resection. He was lame on it probably for the best part of a year but it’s totally grown out now and he’s sound on it- the hole completely growing out in November. So that would all make sense.

 

[Orangehorse]

I wonder what the Rockley people would make of the X rays? Can you ask if they could have a look?

As for his front feet from the bottom, you can see that he is growing the foot that he wants. If you leave his shoes off his feet could well change a great deal. I think I would go with the vet.

 

[ycbm]

If you had not taken x rays I would be telling you to crack on. But you did. And the x rays tell a very, very different story. And might yet prevent you from joining the ranks of people with retired or PTS eight year olds.

As I said above, you trust your vet, follow his advice. Mine would be telling you not to increase the pressures on those changing feet and event that horse this year if you want him to stay sound.


I think you need to ask yourself a question as to why you posted this thread. You have a vet you trust, yet you needed the support of other inexpert people on this forum before you were prepared to follow his advice. Why? If you have doubts, listen to them.

 

[Casey76]

From the X-ray (the more recent one is on the right, right?), you have lost sole depth since last summer, and if I’m reading correctly, you have some sinking (the top of P3 should be in alignment with the coronary band).

The overall hoof shape is better, and much more aligned correctly to P3.

From the sole pic, I would definitely treat for thrush. Use a dental pick to *really* make sure there are no hidden flaps and/or crevices which may be hiding in the back of the frog.

With regards to alignment, to. My inexpert eye, the most recent X-rays are more correct, with P2 seemingly a little out of alignment, where as the earlier summer radios, show P1,2 and 3 to be in a slightly curved alignment. However, alignment can be effected by the stance of the horse, and how s/he is weighting her/his legs at the time the X-rays are taken.

Do you have dorsal X-rays as well as the lateral ones?

 

[ycbm]

I must apologise, I have been using the expression broken back when I should have been saying broken forward.

 

[Michen]

I wonder what the Rockley people would make of the X rays? Can you ask if they could have a look?

As for his front feet from the bottom, you can see that he is growing the foot that he wants. If you leave his shoes off his feet could well change a great deal. I think I would go with the vet.

I could do but it feels a bit cheeky asking for their opinion given I have no intention of sending him there. It is a business after all and I know Nic is always super busy.