Horse A bit Above Himself : Feed

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mickey

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I own a 15.3hh Irish x TB (see my siggy). He is a normal doer. He has been getting the following feed based on 4 times a week up to an hr schooling, and then maybe a light, short (1hrs) hack thrown in each week.

1 scp Alfa A
1/2 scp sugarbeet
1 scp fibre nuts
Ad lib haylage from round bales (but good quality).

((I am afraid I don't have the weights but the above are normal measures (rounded but not heaped) from a round feed scoop which is standard in most yards.))

Recently he has started on Top Spec Leisure Time feed balancer (for leisure horses or good doers). He is on their recommended level of 500g twice a day. He started this approx 2 weeks ago

The last few days he has become spooky and exciteable. Looking at him I am beginning to think he has become too stocky. I haven't been able to do much with him for the last couple of weeks either because of lack of facility.

Would you change the feed balancer amount? Or take away/reduce the Alf or SB? Or perhaps go back to normal chaff?

I am not sure what to do. I will give Top Spec a ring but I wondered if anyone else had any thoughts? Thankyou
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If he seems a little overweight (which is what I presume you mean by stocky), then I would reduce the bucket feed. As he is on good quality haylage he probably doesn't need a balancer - a general vit/min supplement would be enough, something like Equivite or Benevit. You can mix this in with a little unmolassed beet or a low sugar chaff.
 
What made you add in the balancer? Did you think he was lacking something beforehand? As I read your post he is getting 500g of Leisure time twice a day, not split in 2? I thought all Topspec balancers were fed on the ratio of 100g per 100kg of body weight, although I haven't used the leisuretime one. I don't think your horse will weigh 1000kg?

I had my good doers on TS Lite during the summer while they weren't getting any other feed so I could feed it by hand as it is pelleted while they were in the field, but now they come in for a haynet they just get Benevit in a bit of sugar beet for the vitamins and minerals.
 
Bethie - Sorry, I meant 250g twice a day. My brain is gone!
Both: The reason I added the balancer was because when I described my circumstances to a Top Spec advisor, (saying I was concerned by possible insufficient vits and minerals in my horse's diet) he suggested the balancer rather than a broad-spectrum multi vit/mineral supp.

I am not sure why the advisor took this approach, although it is possible, but not likely, that he wasn't getting the beet at the time. Also my horse is not normally esp fizzy so I would have told them that.

As I see it at present, if he had carried on with the bucket feed as is, he would have been fine. Then I would have gone back to plain chaff if he got bigger!

I am just confused! I would know what to do without the balancer in the equation, but now I a load of feed balancer left to use.......

I am coming around to your idea of the benevit supplement and then monitoring hard feed.....I would know how to manage that far more easily!!
 
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Bethie - Sorry, I meant 250g twice a day. My brain is gone!

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Ah, that makes sense!!

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Both: The reason I added the balancer was because when I described my circumstances to a Top Spec advisor, (saying I was concerned by possible insufficient vits and minerals in my horse's diet) he suggested the balancer rather than a broad-spectrum multi vit/mineral supp.

I am not sure why the advisor took this approach, although it is possible, but not likely, that he wasn't getting the beet at the time. Also my horse is not normally esp fizzy so I would have told them that.

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I don't think Topspec do a powdered supplement equivalent to leisure time, so that might be why he didn't suggest that. In my experience the helpline is usually good but something seems to have gone missing here, perhaps there was some miscommunication somewhere down the line. I wouldn't personally be fussed about feeding a probiotic, which having a quick look at the leisure time web page seems to be one of the major features of this product, to my good doers as they get more than enough from their feed all by themselves!

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As I see it at present, if he had carried on with the bucket feed as is, he would have been fine. Then I would have gone back to plain chaff if he got bigger!

I am just confused! I would know what to do without the balancer in the equation, but now I a load of feed balancer left to use.......

I am coming around to your idea of the benevit supplement and then monitoring hard feed.....I would know how to manage that far more easily!!

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I think if I was you I would firstly see if I could sell the bag on to someone on the yard or nearby easily and for a fair price. If not, I'd be looking at just feeding the leisure time with some Alfa A and maybe the sugar beet but dropping the fibre cubes for now in order to reduce the overall energy levels he is receiving from the total feed - check the MJDE figures on the balancer and cube bags to see how comparable they are.

Once I'd used the bag up I'd be looking at the powdered broad spectrum vit/min supplements with your usual feed regime as you won't be adding as many calories into the diet.

One of the main points for balancers is that on the whole they provide very concentrated nutrition, which allows you to feed them in small quantities, but that means that the digestible energy level is often comparatively high and if your horse doesn't need that level of energy putting in on a daily basis...

Just to add, one of my fatties who gets the handful of beet and Benevit diet at the minute is a Section D who works reasonably hard for an hour a day 6 days per week doing mainly dressage (Elementary-ish level), jumping to 3', lunging and hacking, including round our yard's XC course, and is still bl**dy fat at the minute!
 
I'd cut out the fibre cubes and monitor the beet but carry on with the topspec
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The thing is with TS is you can cut the hard feed right down.
 
Another point is that the fibre nuts you are using are almost certainly supplemented, and 1 Stubbs scoop of nuts is quite heavy, so these are probably contributing a fair amount of vit/mins to the diet, so whether you feed a balancer or a vit/min supplement, it should be at a reduced rate. As an example, if the recommended rate of the fibre nuts for a horse his size is 2kg a day and it turns out that you are feeding 1kg a day, then you can feed the balancer or supplement at half the daily rate.

As the Top Spec is the last thing you added, it would make sense to cut it out temporarily (for perhaps a fortnight) to see if it makes any difference at all. Top Spec is an excellent feed and lots of horse are fine on it, but I do know one or two who go a bit mental on it, for no explicable reason.
 
TBH i'd be looking at cutting out the sugarbeet and reducing the nuts. That's a lot of feed going in.
Didn't know TS had a rep for making horse's loopy? Certainly not sent any of ours loopy!
 
I'd agree with that! If the horse was fine in its attitude until the TS was added it seems logical that you should remove the last thing that was changed, in this case the TS.

If after a while the behaviour (not condition) goes back to normal then there is your answer.
 
I would cut the topspec down / out. horse shouldn't need that amount with that quantity of food / that quantity of food with that amount of topspec. I've also heard of some horses going loopy on it! I'd also look at cutting everything else down too - I think you'll find that Alfa-A contains more energy than the nuts so may be worth reducing that slightly more...

keep up the add lib haylage... I'd also sugest that if you aren't able to exercise horse as normal that radions are reduced accordingly...
 
Oh God, it's really confusing! He has got excitable and temperamental since being on the TS, but then again, at the same time, I have not been able to do as much work as I would have liked because of the arena surface, and he just stands around in the field all day looking thoroughly bored.

I called TS today and spoke to the head nutritionist. She said; The haylage is probably the issue as it is rich! I told her he has been getting it ad-lib (as he is now) all yr around between 3pm and 9am with no issues. She then asked me about his droppings, and when I said they were normal (not sloppy) she seemed happier about the haylage. It would be difficult to change to hay as the yard only gets haylage for all the yard, and he can cough on hay.

She said to cut the Alfa out and feed an un-molassed chaff - I think the one he is getting is molassed. Then she said to give a couple of handfuls of fibre nuts and keep the unmolassed s/beet. Her advice was to stay with the feed balancer - She said there is no cereal or heating product in there and he will benefit from the probiotic. I asked about the supplement only and she thought I would need to add quite a lot of it. She recommended Dengie Hi fi or TS chop. Also TS nuts. She seemed helpful but was definitely pushing TS products, which I suppose you might expect.
 
Unfortunately this is the problem with feedlines, in that they will promote their own products, which is understandable. My friend with the Top Spec intolerant horse had just the same problem - they were insistent it had never happened to anyone else!

You really have nothing to lose by cutting out the Top Spec for a couple of weeks (perhaps reducing the rest of the bucket feed as well) and see how he reacts. If he is still a bit above himself then you know it is down to just lack of work/horrid weather rather than the feed. If his behaviour improves, then you can reintroduce the Top Spec (whilst keeping the rest of the bucket feed low) to see what happens!
 
TS would most definately be pushing their own products. listen to your horse? Was there anything wrong with HIM before you started feeding the TS or were you made to feel like you weren't feeding your horse adequately by the TS advisor????!!

there lies your answer I think...
 
Thanks for your help everyone.
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I am wondering - If I were to reduce the volume of TS feed balancer being added, (as well as making changes to bucket feed), does this mean he will not be getting a full level of vitamins and minerals from the TS reduced volume and hence the whole point (or the main point) of giving the feed balancer will be redundant??
I am happy to reduce the TS balancer but if that means it is not doing it's job then I would be keen to avoid spending the money!!
 
I don't think you should feed the TS at a reduced rate, but cut it right out for now as a temporary measure. Do this for a fortnight to see whether it is the TS causing the problems or something else.

After that period you can make the decision whether to reintroduce the TS or to look for an alternative supplement. Whatever balancer or supplement you eventually decide to feed, if you are feeding it alongside a significant quantity of a supplemented fibre nut, than you can reduce the rate of the balancer or supplement. No, he won't be getting the full amount of vit/mins from the balancer or supplement, but that is not a problem because the fibre nuts will be providing the rest!

Balancers are designed to give the full amount of vit/mins in a very concentrated amount of feed (usually about 500g). Most commercial nuts and mixes also are supplemented with vit/mins but the daily amount is usually spread through a greater volume of feed. As an example, Spillers High Fibre Cubes are supplemented with vit/mins but the daily recommended amount for a 500kg cob is 3kg daily. If you decided to feed only 1.5kg of the cubes a day, then the horse will only be getting half the daily amount so you can top this up with half the recommended amount of a balancer or supplement. The horse would then be getting half his vit/mins from the balancer/supplement and half from the cubes.

If you are feeding only unsupplemented feeds such as an alfalfa chaff and some beet, then you would need the full amount of the balancer or supplement.

The various TS cubes, such as Cool Condition Cubes and their Fibre Plus Cubes, are slightly different as they are unsupplemented because they are designed to be fed alongside the full amount of balancer.
 
i would cut out the nuts and the sugarbeet permanently if he isn't a poor doer.

i would cut the Topspec for a few weeks as well and see whether that was at fault.
maybe get a powdered supplement for vits/mins instead?
 
TS line will only promote their own stuff of course, and have always denied it makes some horses sharp!

mums schoolmaster is steady eddy 200%-could put a total novice on him and he would carry them through a medium test, will duck to catch a wobbly rider,stop if they get tense etc.
on TS he is a fire breathing idiot, who will only piaffe/passage/canter on the spot whilst snorting fire.and thats half rations.

it made no difference to my already quirky TB mare, so its not all horses, just some.

i always reccomend TS when people want to gee them up a bit!!!!
 
Thanks very much for your help TGM, I appreciate your detailed input.
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So, I shall tell the yard to stop the TS today for 2 weeks. I think I will look into the fibre nut nutritional and see what portion of his daily requirement (vits and minerals) this is providing at current level. I am surprised TS didn't want to know this info TBH before telling me to use 500g TS a day...........Another way of selling full daily ammount of product I guess.....
I'll use the 1st controlled experiment and then see what to do next. Might ask your advice again TGM if you don't mind becoming a nutritional advisor!!?
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