Horse buying

Sanversera

Sanversera

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How things have changed! Back in the mists of time we just took our friend with us,looked at teeth,felt legs,saw it trottedup,rode it. Bought it. I was fortunate i suppose but this worked for many years. If the horse had an issue it was schooled out of it,infact it was almost expected that something would need an amount of fixing. Nowadays its a minefield, by the time youve checked for inheritable diseases,ppsm,uvitis,navivular,dodgy hocks and the like its starting to get exhausting. Then theres ridden and on the ground behaviour. Horses arent machines they play up sometimes,nowadays people throw up their hands in horror and reject what to me is normal behaviour,and its feed it calmers, feed it turmeric,its kissing spines! Its ulcers! Get its eyes checked!. Honestly, mostly the horse just needs work,take it a three hour hack five days a week and see it settle and get fitter. And if it turns out that the horse cannot jump 6ft or do passage and piaffe theres wringing of hands and whailing for money back. In the past we just accepted the fact and lowered our expectations or sold the horse to a suitable home. What do other forumites think? Especially the older ones who had horses and ponies in the 1960s and70s.
 
Sanversera said:
How things have changed! Back in the mists of time we just took our friend with us,looked at teeth,felt legs,saw it trottedup,rode it. Bought it. I was fortunate i suppose but this worked for many years. If the horse had an issue it was schooled out of it,infact it was almost expected that something would need an amount of fixing. Nowadays its a minefield, by the time youve checked for inheritable diseases,ppsm,uvitis,navivular,dodgy hocks and the like its starting to get exhausting. Then theres ridden and on the ground behaviour. Horses arent machines they play up sometimes,nowadays people throw up their hands in horror and reject what to me is normal behaviour,and its feed it calmers, feed it turmeric,its kissing spines! Its ulcers! Get its eyes checked!. Honestly, mostly the horse just needs work,take it a three hour hack five days a week and see it settle and get fitter. And if it turns out that the horse cannot jump 6ft or do passage and piaffe theres wringing of hands and whailing for money back. In the past we just accepted the fact and lowered our expectations or sold the horse to a suitable home. What do other forumites think? Especially the older ones who had horses and ponies in the 1960s and70s.
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I do agree to some extent and I have always tried to find out what they enjoyed (the horse!) and that's what we did. However, now looking back ponies that were 'naughty', 'lazy' etc actually had problems and many were very stoic. I am looking for a kind horse and having spent the last 5 years rehabbing back to back, just need a good idea of what I am committing myself to.
 
Sanversera said:
Nowadays its a minefield, by the time youve checked for inheritable diseases,ppsm,uvitis,navivular,dodgy hocks and the like its starting to get exhausting.
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People are finding these things tho. I'm sure it was exhausting for horses 30 years ago to just be expected to hack for 3 hours with all these things.
 
It was just a few years ago I was asked if I wanted a whip to force my pony over jumps. Turns out she had sore hocks and that’s why she didn’t want to jump. (Which she told me as politely as she could) I refused the whip and called it a day.

I’d far rather folk judged me than ride my horse through pain.

I had a pony who loved hacking but hated schooling so we hacked. Im happy to do whatever my horse enjoys but I won’t force them to be ridden because I want to when they could be in pain.
 
When you sell a pony, you get everything from ‘Can your pony live alone’ to clueless parents to those wanting the world for a fiver to (eventually) a few decent horsey people. It’s just sifting through to find the right home.

I just bought a pony - went to see pony on Wednesday, he came home on Saturday. We were looking for green to keep the price down though so my criteria were: big enough, not going to lose the plot when you sit down, sound, will jump, affordable. I pretty much did the same when I bought my cob. I’m very wary of established horses as you never know what has happened in their lives and what troubles might crop up to bite you later. Vettings don’t pick up quite a lot of things from what I have seen.
 
My horse has been quietly and politely telling me he was finding ridden work hard ever since I backed him at 4. As a consequence, I've only lightly ridden him. Various instructors have told me to "ride him through it". I've had professional riders school him who told me it was weakness and to work him more to strengthen him up. Turns out he has a large bone cyst in his stifle. He was never lame as such, just always finding taking a contact difficult, wanting to be on his forehand, taking the odd funny step. Nowadays we can do xrays fairly cheaply and fairly routinely so we can find such things. Sometimes there really IS a problem. Taking him out on 3 hour hacks ... :(
 
Yes, that's pretty much how I bought Old Dobbin twenty odd years ago. And the seller was keen to tell me all he knew about his history. By contrast, two of our livery ladies have brought on a total of four new horses over the past two years, all of which have been returned for one reason or another. Novice owners over horsing themselves comes into it, and one purchase turned out to be a complete pack of lies from the seller, which almost ended in disaster. Minefield.
 
I'm one of the 'old' brigade! Went to local, well known dealer to see what he had, tried a couple in his field and around the lane a bit and then agreed a figure!

Yes, I had a few surprises and one or two lame ones but nothing which wasn't fixable quite easily. The difference is the vast increase in knowledge of equine physiology on the part of the rider now I think, searching for quite 'technical' issues and flaws. We looked at good conformation and movement, a bright eye mainly and didn't often get a horse vetted unless it was quite valuable.

No cruelty intended at all on the buyer's part and we only sent one back which turned out to be an inveterate biter of horse and man.

I do have pangs of guilt given the knowledge that we now have, but at the same time we didn't ponder too long before calling the hunt when time was up, no long box rests, and prolonged treatments for years, if a field rest didn't help that was often the signal to end. I remember thinking that a horse was 'old' at 16, ready to retire!!
 
I think also the way horses are produced has probably changed. In the past, when hacking was safer and hunting was more accessible, I suspect many young horses would've been started with lots of hacking in straight lines and then hunting once they were established to have brakes and be basically sound. Fewer people had a surface and turnout was perhaps also more accessible. If something went wrong out hacking the horse had a good chance of legging it home in one piece.

Nowadays a lot of horses seem to be started in an arena, worked in an arena, jumped in an arena, etc etc. Hacking for hours to put steady miles on them is just much harder to do. Then once sold they are often expected to continue the arena work, or to hack in the less than optimal circumstances that is all that's available to many people (stressful busy rights of way, fast roads etc). If there's an accident the consequences can easily be deadly. That can't make it easy to develop a sound, confident horse. The people who CAN do that well, even in a very horse-unfriendly modern world, are impressive!

I know the whole situation is much more complex than that but it can't help.
 
Fellow oldie here.
As well as the above reasons , a lot of which seem to come down to owners not having much experience and relying on coaches/experts of whatever field/ vets & body workers, I do believe the quality of breeding and producing has changed.
In the past because horses were worked hard and long, ones who survived that level of work then were bred . Now , the stallions are often young and are bred for flash gaits [ dressage etc , even natives have fallen into this trap] with long term soundness not being a priority.
Coupled with that , the slow process of bringing on horses after they have been backed is a dying art. It takes 18 months to fully muscle up a horse . These days I see 'arena ' horses, put on a contact straight away and ridden in circles , not hacked at a walk for weeks/months with a long rein. How can they have strong tendons , because without hardened legs , their joints just cannot last. Sorry, rant over!
 
Widgeon said:
I think also the way horses are produced has probably changed. In the past, when hacking was safer and hunting was more accessible, I suspect many young horses would've been started with lots of hacking in straight lines and then hunting once they were established to have brakes and be basically sound. Fewer people had a surface and turnout was perhaps also more accessible. If something went wrong out hacking the horse had a good chance of legging it home in one piece.

Nowadays a lot of horses seem to be started in an arena, worked in an arena, jumped in an arena, etc etc. Hacking for hours to put steady miles on them is just much harder to do. Then once sold they are often expected to continue the arena work, or to hack in the less than optimal circumstances that is all that's available to many people (stressful busy rights of way, fast roads etc). If there's an accident the consequences can easily be deadly. That can't make it easy to develop a sound, confident horse. The people who CAN do that well, even in a very horse-unfriendly modern world, are impressive!

I know the whole situation is much more complex than that but it can't help.
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Very good point. I agree
 
cornbrodolly said:
Fellow oldie here.
As well as the above reasons , a lot of which seem to come down to owners not having much experience and relying on coaches/experts of whatever field/ vets & body workers, I do believe the quality of breeding and producing has changed.
In the past because horses were worked hard and long, ones who survived that level of work then were bred . Now , the stallions are often young and are bred for flash gaits [ dressage etc , even natives have fallen into this trap] with long term soundness not being a priority.
Coupled with that , the slow process of bringing on horses after they have been backed is a dying art. It takes 18 months to fully muscle up a horse . These days I see 'arena ' horses, put on a contact straight away and ridden in circles , not hacked at a walk for weeks/months with a long rein. How can they have strong tendons , because without hardened legs , their joints just cannot last. Sorry, rant over!
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Im 100% with you on this
 
Adding that the horses and ponies we rode in the 60s and 70s decended from stock that was left after ww2. So i think those animals were the best conformationally sound animals. the explosion of horse ownership in the 1970s and 80s meant poorer animals were bred on with faults entering the gene pool.
 
I think its a combination of us now knowing more, being able to check / treat more and as others have said the change in the way horses are produced / kept not enough turnout, too much time in an arena etc etc. I like to be old school in terms of turnout and hacking v arena work but not in terms of vet care, or expecting horses to simply 'get on with it' when they are clearly uncomfortable or unhappy with their work.
 
Marigold4 said:
My horse has been quietly and politely telling me he was finding ridden work hard ever since I backed him at 4. As a consequence, I've only lightly ridden him. Various instructors have told me to "ride him through it". I've had professional riders school him who told me it was weakness and to work him more to strengthen him up. Turns out he has a large bone cyst in his stifle. He was never lame as such, just always finding taking a contact difficult, wanting to be on his forehand, taking the odd funny step. Nowadays we can do xrays fairly cheaply and fairly routinely so we can find such things. Sometimes there really IS a problem. Taking him out on 3 hour hacks ... :(
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I'm so sorry he has that, but I'm so glad you found it. I know youve been worried since day one about him. Hes such a beautiful, smart little horse hes always been one I remembered. Will he be able to be ridden in the future?
 
I'm not sure I fully understand your point of hacking 3 hours, 6 dats a week. And presumambly, this is something you've done consistently all year, even through winter if you are judging others for not doing it ....?

Most modern day horse owners work.full time and many simple do not have the time or daylight even if they have access to hacking that allows them to do that or a horse that is geniunely pain free to enjoy it.

I WFH and enjoy hacking (and clock up a lot of miles) but I struggle to do a 2 hour hack more than twice a week Monday-Friday. More realistically is 45-70 minutes in the week - but used well, those shorter hacks can be more beneficial to fitness than long hacks anyway, not to mention givi g a longer recovery period for the horse. I'm lucky to have off road hacking and can ride out by torch light during winter but your suggestion would simply not be feasible for many.

Of course, weekends are different and long hacks are the norm.

I don't know of anyone that doesn't expect a settling in period with their new horse? But perhaps they do exist.

Often buyers hands are tied via vettings as they are often needed for insurance ppurposes. I'm still happy to be pragmatic and take a punt but I have the financial means to self fund vets bill if required. Many don't and their decisions are based on that.

I'm sure lots of 'old school' people think the 6-8 week routine body work for mine is OTT and he doesn't 'need' supplements or whatever else they might scoff at. But I'd always rather get a vet, para professional or behaviouralist to check something out than push a horse through pain, discomfort or disregard their emotions.

Why wouldn't I want my horse to live the best possible life I can provide including being understood, listened to and free from pain? It seems mad not to want it. But each to their own, I guess.
 
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I'm Dun said:
I'm so sorry he has that, but I'm so glad you found it. I know youve been worried since day one about him. Hes such a beautiful, smart little horse hes always been one I remembered. Will he be able to be ridden in the future?
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Thank you for your kind words. I am very sad about it and tormented by all the times he subtly told me he couldn't do it. When you're an amateur rider you tend to doubt yourself and believe the professionals that there's nothing wrong, with an undercurrent of it's just your rubbish riding. He has ultrasound this week to assess the damage to the stifle joint. I'm guessing it is going to be bad news as the bone cyst is big and is connecting to the joint, which is the worst type. He is perfectly happy grazing in his field but unlikely to be anything other than retired. The latest surgery has only really been done successfully on young racehorses whose bones are still developing. He is nearly 10 so not an option for him.
 
Another oldie here.

I think it's a bit chicken and egg in regard to soundness and the use of arenas. Did the modern soundness issues (and seemingly inevitable very sad discard rate of young horses) arise directly - as already mentioned a few times above - from the overuse/exclusive use of arenas and the 'going round and round in circles'? Did the development of all the vet tests and investigations of health issues now available arise directly from the modern lamenesses being harder to diagnose than the older visible stuff like splints, spavin, tendon strains, a generic 'it's in the foot', etc. as they haven't arisen from traditional hunting/hacking/jumping work but more and more 'schooling' and dressage.

A factor in the old days was that horses were almost exclusively ridden on natural terrain thus developing their own balance - exactly as they were evolved to do - and in all seasons, so some parts of the year the going was 'firm' and other parts it was 'heavy'. Racehorse trainers trained on grass - there were no 'all-weather' gallops and the resulting TB stallions (think the old HIS here) were mostly proven performers. The use of exclusively soft arena surfaces, no matter how 'scientific' they are, doesn't toughen up (for lack of a better phrase) the horses skeleton and musculature as naturally as it used to be done.

Iirc it was mainly Masserella with his import of Louella Inshalla that started to raise the use of warmbloods in the UK. Prior to that it was traditional native breeds, Arabs, Irish Draughts, Clevelands and TBs that were available for breeding and crosses. Lines that had been around and evolved over centuries.

It is also true that modern breeding is tending towards more use of very young (and physically unproven) stallions. Being old fashioned I tended to use older stallions - 17, 22, 20 who were still sound and ridden regularly when I bred my mares. The only time I used a young 4yo stallion the offspring had problems and ended up being pts at 14. All the others went on well into their 20s.

I'm another that only had 2 stage vettings done even into the late 90s. I bought on my own assessment. I do think that the heart, eyes and lungs assessment of a 2 stage is worthwhile. I knew that my judgement wasn't perfect and accepted that I could get things wrong. I also only bought young, just broken, 3yo as my riding horses. All of them went on into their 20s (the last one 27) as I tried to do with them what they were good at and enjoyed.

I bought a lot on temperament as I reckoned a horse that was naturally a happy character at purchase time was likely to not have been abused previously by humans and was also going to tell me by their demeanor if something was wrong in the future.

No - I don't think things were perfect in the past, particularly some of the vet 'treatments' used (colic drenches, pin and line firing, blistering, etc.) but time and dr. green did often solve a lot of problems.

I was heartened yesterday to read the obit in H&H about Mr. Bass. A lovely event horse who failed the 5 stage vetting when he was due to be sold as a young horse. Look what he went on to achieve.....

Neither vets or horses are meant to be perfect!
 
Widgeon said:
I think also the way horses are produced has probably changed. In the past, when hacking was safer and hunting was more accessible, I suspect many young horses would've been started with lots of hacking in straight lines and then hunting once they were established to have brakes and be basically sound. Fewer people had a surface and turnout was perhaps also more accessible. If something went wrong out hacking the horse had a good chance of legging it home in one piece.

Nowadays a lot of horses seem to be started in an arena, worked in an arena, jumped in an arena, etc etc. Hacking for hours to put steady miles on them is just much harder to do. Then once sold they are often expected to continue the arena work, or to hack in the less than optimal circumstances that is all that's available to many people (stressful busy rights of way, fast roads etc). If there's an accident the consequences can easily be deadly. That can't make it easy to develop a sound, confident horse. The people who CAN do that well, even in a very horse-unfriendly modern world, are impressive!

I know the whole situation is much more complex than that but it can't help.
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Which is why I like green and barely done anything (all the way downwards from there to feral is also fine!). We have no arena and produce ours through hacking - they don’t see a corner or a circle until they have been under saddle for 6-9 months and then only on grass. I don’t hunt and the young ones hack limited distance according to age, but by 5yo we’re doing several hours a day, several times a week in the summer. Keeps them sane, happy and out of trouble in the field (plus slim enough!).

I think a huge amount of knowledge has been somehow lost. Instructors, horse owners (and even some vets) who cannot see lameness, have no idea of basic saddle fit etc. Also a lot of loss of understanding in the general population of training and producing. I do blame the BHS for part of that - all this is so far up their curriculum that most people never learn it. I think being able to see lameness, basic saddle fit, mouth comfort etc should be somewhere in level 1!
 
As others have said above, I think there are plenty of factors here. The breeding has changed, horses are bred to move with fancy gaits from a young age and unnecessarily large. Not only does this directly affect the soundness of the horse (not enough time building up tendons and muscle before moving in such ways), it also makes the horses scarier for the riders, making them less likely to hack out. Horses seem to be more reactive and sensitive now, probably because they're bred to be fancy. This also makes it less likely the owner will hack it out and make the training varied. So there are probably an increased amount of injuries and defects on the horses.

That being said, some issues can be 'ridden through', even if they are caused by pain. Correct exercise can help, by building the horse up, teach and allow it to move in a biomechanically beneficial way. This does however require actually working the horse correctly enough, not pulling it in by the reins and force it forwards with the legs. Which is a common method in the show communities I've been around. Even when done correctly, there are definitely things that can't be "ridden through" and requirer veterinary care to improve, if they can improve at all.

One area I'm not too knowledgeable about regarding how it used to be is hoof care. It is incredibly common to see terribly shod horses now. My book from 1897 says that 'the time before the horse needs to be shod again will very, but shall never be more than six weeks' (translated), while normal here now is about eight weeks. The quality of the hooves pictured in the book varies, but is overall significantly better than what you'll see in a livery with mostly show horses. Surely the lack of knowledge about hooves, thus also incorrectly trimmed and shod hooves, will affect the number of injured horses. This is also two-sided, I'm not sure it is possible to get actually good feet on a horse that is worked against its biomechanics. My latest farrier also spoke about this.
 
Korg said:
As others have said above, I think there are plenty of factors here. The breeding has changed, horses are bred to move with fancy gaits from a young age and unnecessarily large. Not only does this directly affect the soundness of the horse (not enough time building up tendons and muscle before moving in such ways), it also makes the horses scarier for the riders, making them less likely to hack out. Horses seem to be more reactive and sensitive now, probably because they're bred to be fancy. This also makes it less likely the owner will hack it out and make the training varied. So there are probably an increased amount of injuries and defects on the horses.

That being said, some issues can be 'ridden through', even if they are caused by pain. Correct exercise can help, by building the horse up, teach and allow it to move in a biomechanically beneficial way. This does however require actually working the horse correctly enough, not pulling it in by the reins and force it forwards with the legs. Which is a common method in the show communities I've been around. Even when done correctly, there are definitely things that can't be "ridden through" and requirer veterinary care to improve, if they can improve at all.

One area I'm not too knowledgeable about regarding how it used to be is hoof care. It is incredibly common to see terribly shod horses now. My book from 1897 says that 'the time before the horse needs to be shod again will very, but shall never be more than six weeks' (translated), while normal here now is about eight weeks. The quality of the hooves pictured in the book varies, but is overall significantly better than what you'll see in a livery with mostly show horses. Surely the lack of knowledge about hooves, thus also incorrectly trimmed and shod hooves, will affect the number of injured horses. This is also two-sided, I'm not sure it is possible to get actually good feet on a horse that is worked against its biomechanics. My latest farrier also spoke about this.
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Regarding shoes. My old book says 4 weeks after shoeing they should be removed and refitted and then a new set 4 weeks later.
 
I'm afraid I've never quite understood the misty eyed need for nostalgia, the world changes and we cant change it back, I think its important to learn from the past and take the best elements forward, but theres an awful lot that we need to leave behind. Vet investigation rather then regular three hour hacks is a good place to start, better fitting tack, horses not retiring mid teens, I'd rather spend my energy working out how to do things best in the current world we live in, rather than harking back to what we have lost. We have less safe hacking now in a lot of the UK, not all yards allow year round turnout, these are the realities for a lot of horse owners now, so I think it matters more to help give horses the best life possible now.
 
lme said:
I think its a combination of us now knowing more, being able to check / treat more and as others have said the change in the way horses are produced / kept not enough turnout, too much time in an arena etc etc. I like to be old school in terms of turnout and hacking v arena work but not in terms of vet care, or expecting horses to simply 'get on with it' when they are clearly uncomfortable or unhappy with their work.
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I had several ponies and horses in the 60's and 70s None were vetted and none of them ever needed the vet They were hacked regularly and lived out. They were sold on sound
 
It has certainly become much more complicated, buying and keeping a horse. The challenge is to find a balanced way through, where your horse enjoys its work and has varied activities, on varied surfaces, whilst keeping a careful watch on the horses, comfort, health and general willingness. I do think things were simpler in the 60’s for example. But I think people looked at horses in a different sort of way. It wasn’t long since they had been a transport system or a piece of military equipment. So it was well known how to meet their basic needs, but nobody thought about their specific needs. But then no people in the 60’s went to Pilates or had chiropractic treatment or regular massage, either. Much more care is taken overall. Much more awareness of problems. Much more complicated lives.
 
Agree completely with highmileagecob above. Not just lacking common sense but also not having to hand a basic equine first aid kit ready to treat basic cuts, poultice a foot and similar. Vets are also slightly too ready to suggest expensive tests and investigations instead of saying "see how it goes for a couple of days and then get back to me if needed" (which comes back to the 'corporate vets' thread).

That is also linked to the modern obsession with the 'quick fix'. Not willing to accept that things take time to heal.

....and yes - horses do go on to be older and still ridden now (if they don't fall apart physically beyond repair at young ages) but many of those will be being kept going on ever increasing doses of bute or other medication (e.g. prascend) to mask their pain/disease. (I knew of one poor old soul at livery - in his mid-20s - who was taking over 8 prascend tablets per day by the end and still uncomfortable with little bodily temperature control)

Which does bring us back to the oft-discussed threads on here of pts or not.....
 
I think a lot of the people who say 'Well my horses never had anything wrong with them!' are just not good horse people and not experienced enough at spotting signs of pain. Being blissfully ignorant is much easier than being conscientious and spending £££ trying to fix things. I think any good owner on a livery yard sees things being done to horses that makes them shudder.

I think there has been an attitude shift for sure in that people now see horses as commodities where if they're bought and not perfect people don't want to work through issues - and a lot of that I imagine is because riding has become more and more accessible to 'normal' folk. 'Back then' you only really rode if you had a connection or your parents were horsey. Even 'just' 20 years ago if we bought a pony who was a devil you just sort of got on with it and started working through things rather than ranting on FB about how you've been done over.

nowadays people throw up their hands in horror and reject what to me is normal behaviour,and its feed it calmers, feed it turmeric,its kissing spines! Its ulcers! Get its eyes checked!. Honestly, mostly the horse just needs work
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Thankfully this attitude is slowly being worked out of the horse industry. I've never understood why people feel so entitled to force a sentient being to submit to them.
 
I often offer up a quiet apology for the horses and ponies of my youth who were 'just ridden through it'.

The ponies who would run out at jumps - naughtiness or sore somewhere?
The gypsy cob at the riding school when I first moved to Birmingham - horribly slow in the first lesson of the day but moving brilliantly by the end of the day. Owning one with PSSM now makes me 90% certain she had it.
The jumping pony that used to fly buck? I don't think that was excitement.
The warmblood in my 30s with the hunters bump? Fortunately we had amazing hacking and I wasn't fussed about jumping because he had a dirty stop. In hindsight I would think kissing spine.

I rode all over the world in my 20s & 30s and I've met some very stoic horses. But we know better now and we should do better. Yes there are people who could do with more and better instruction rather than a fancy horse but I don't think they should be criticised for ever wasting money getting a vet out because they are worried.
 
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