Horse fine before physio came!!!

[cptrayes]

As many people know, I lost a horse to sudden adult onset wobblers recently with a neck deformity which he was born with. To try to make sure I don't get a surprise like that ever again, I got a properly qualified and experienced equine physio to give a routine check to my other two horses (yes, I'm a lucky girl!) on Monday afternoon.

On Saturday I had a lesson with a dressage trainer on my young dressage horse with a very well thought of Grand Prix level trainer, who was extremely complimentary about my horse and the way he moves. It's the first time she has seen him.

On Monday the physio identified some tightness in the myofacial (??) something-or-others in both sides of his back under the saddle. For treatment, she manipulated the top of his ribs, she pinched him hard right up by his spine, and she did the reflex that results in them arching their back right up. After the pinching bit, she stood back and you could see his muscles twiching in a ripple running backwards down his back when no-one was touching him. When pinching one side of his back he was picking up the hind leg on the opposite side as if that leg was hurting. He swapped legs when she changed sides, same reaction.

She told me that he would be fine to ride the next day but not to do 10m circles. No problems with that, we never do, he's still very green.

Yesterday morning he came in out of the field so stiff in the back that I could see it in the way he was walking. When I felt it, his back was like a board. I could free it off some with massage, and I rode him at a very gentle walk but he was adamant that he could not trot. On the lunge, he bucked and squealed and was very unhappy.

I've spoken to the physio and she is adamant that she did nothing that could have caused this. But then again, she blamed an adjustment that we made to the saddle, twice, even though I had told her that I found the problem without the saddle being anywhere near him.

So, my questions are:

does anyone think they know what has happened?

was it the physio?

if it was the physio, has she made an actual mistake or is this just "one of those things" that was to be expected and I should have been warned might have happened?

would you want that physio back again?

how long do you think it will take him to come right?

what should I do to/for him in the meantime?

Answers to any or all of the above questions gratefully received.

 

[kirstykate]

Oh boy not so good, I would not be best pleased, I would get her back out to check the horse see what her excuses are!! Have you tried heat on the affected area, hot towels etc, can you get your ponio to stretch his back from the front end?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm not a fan of physios myself. After my accident I had hydrotherapy (wonderful) and physiotherapy and I was always worse for a few days after the physiotherapy.

However that's my own personal experience.

 

[Birker2020]

Are you sure that by the physio 'releasing' the problem area the horse then overcompensated in other areas that you had been unware of being painful at the time? Or maybe the horse is now able to use the area he was restricted in and you weren't aware there was a problem there before.

This is what myofascial release is:

Myofascial Release is a hands on, full body technique that focuses on releasing restrictions throughout the body. Fascia is the tough connective tissue which runs through the entire body without interruption and creates a three dimensional web. Fascia surrounds and runs through every organ, muscle, bone, blood vessel, and nerve in the body and can affect every function and system in the body. Fascia encases every muscle fiber and the entire group of fibers that create a muscle in the body. Trauma, repetitive stress and the inflammatory process can cause fascia to solidify and shorten, causing restrictions. Fascial restrictions have tensile strength of over 2,000 pounds of pressure per square inch! Myofascial Release helps restore the necessary flexibility within the connective tissue to help the horse return to optimal health and enhance overall performance. Myofascial Release uses sustained, gentle but deep pressure to release restrictions, which allows for elongation of the tissue and reduces overall pull and stress on the fascial system. Myofascial Release treats the cause of the problem, instead of just temporarily relieving symptoms, allowing for permanent results

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My Quackometer is blaring at me.

 

[flowerlady]

Are you sure that by the physio 'releasing' the problem area the horse then overcompensated in other areas that you had been unware of being painful at the time? Or maybe the horse is now able to use the area he was restricted in and you weren't aware there was a problem there before.

This is what myofascial release is:

Myofascial Release is a hands on, full body technique that focuses on releasing restrictions throughout the body. Fascia is the tough connective tissue which runs through the entire body without interruption and creates a three dimensional web. Fascia surrounds and runs through every organ, muscle, bone, blood vessel, and nerve in the body and can affect every function and system in the body. Fascia encases every muscle fiber and the entire group of fibers that create a muscle in the body. Trauma, repetitive stress and the inflammatory process can cause fascia to solidify and shorten, causing restrictions. Fascial restrictions have tensile strength of over 2,000 pounds of pressure per square inch! Myofascial Release helps restore the necessary flexibility within the connective tissue to help the horse return to optimal health and enhance overall performance. Myofascial Release uses sustained, gentle but deep pressure to release restrictions, which allows for elongation of the tissue and reduces overall pull and stress on the fascial system. Myofascial Release treats the cause of the problem, instead of just temporarily relieving symptoms, allowing for permanent results

Wow I could do with some of that ^^^^^ to release all my seizing up muscles and make me more flexible.

 

[MissMistletoe]

Myofascial release worked wonders for my very tight all over horse.

Hope you find a solution soon.

 

[Fizzbw]

It could well be a healing crisis, she maybe did a bit much therapy for the horse so he's worse, but he should get better and be in a better place for it. I'd give him arnica and a rest, and hope that helps him.

Best of luck

Fx

 

[Queenbee]

It could well be a healing crisis, she maybe did a bit much therapy for the horse so he's worse, but he should get better and be in a better place for it. I'd give him arnica and a rest, and hope that helps him.

Best of luck

Fx

Sounds like a possibility, both my mctimoney practitioner and my equine sports massage therapist would not do all the work needed on a very stiff horse in one session as it can cause the horse a lot of discomfort, instead they will loosen up what they can and work a little bit further the next time.

 

[cptrayes]

Oh boy not so good, I would not be best pleased, I would get her back out to check the horse see what her excuses are!! Have you tried heat on the affected area, hot towels etc, can you get your ponio to stretch his back from the front end?

I don't think I want her anywhere near him at the moment Heat is doing wonders for him today, he;s in a winter rug in 20 c temperatures, inside a barn.

I'm not a fan of physios myself. After my accident I had hydrotherapy (wonderful) and physiotherapy and I was always worse for a few days after the physiotherapy.

However that's my own personal experience.

Shared with Ace by the look of it Faracat

Are you sure that by the physio 'releasing' the problem area the horse then overcompensated in other areas that you had been unware of being painful at the time? Or maybe the horse is now able to use the area he was restricted in and you weren't aware there was a problem there before.

He's sore only and exactly in the areas that she manipulated

Thanks for the description.

Myofascial release worked wonders for my very tight all over horse.

Hope you find a solution soon.

The trouble is, he wasn't noticeably tight in any way before she treated him. The trainer at the weekend was very complimentary about his elevation and movement. He's a very big moving horse and you could easily see and feel if he was stiff, as I did when he came through the gate yesterday morning.

It could well be a healing crisis, she maybe did a bit much therapy for the horse so he's worse, but he should get better and be in a better place for it. I'd give him arnica and a rest, and hope that helps him.

Best of luck

Fx

Do you know, Fizz, if she had said that this morning when I spoke to her I would have been perfectly happy to accept that. But she insists that she did nothing that would have caused it, twice blamed the saddle although I had not had it anywhere near him when I first spotted he was in trouble, and finally said he must have tweaked himself in the field overnight and it was just a coincidence. I think it's this, rather than the fact that he is stiff, that concerns me most.

Sounds like a possibility, both my mctimoney practitioner and my equine sports massage therapist would not do all the work needed on a very stiff horse in one session as it can cause the horse a lot of discomfort, instead they will loosen up what they can and work a little bit further the next time.

Trouble is Queenbee, he wasn't a very stiff horse. I regularly check his back before putting on the saddle because he is a sensitive beastie, and it has never been a problem. He has been scoring around the 70% mark in unaffiilated prelims. And his history is that if he was in the slightest discomfort he makes it very, very plain! Body protector time plain, like he did yesterday It's not possible that I missed it, I would have been face down in the dirt.




Thanks for all the replies everyone, what would you do with him now? He's a lot better today and my instinct is to keep him rugged up warm, moving about gently and let him sort it out for himself.

 

[be positive]

I regularly use a physio for my horses and have never had a bad reaction to treatment, I am always told to let the horse have a day off following treatment, unless it is just a minor session, she insists they are turned out as much as possible to allow their muscles to continue to relax in a natural way, they can stiffen up a little if kept in but not in the way you have described.

I would keep doing some gentle massage, keep his back warm and dry and let him out as much as you can, he will probably feel better within a day or two.

Her attitude would put me off using her again, it sounds as if she did too much in one go but is not prepared to say so, I have known my physio stop treating as she felt it was too intense and needed doing over a period of time rather than in one go.

 

[Archie73]

Hi. I had a physio out to my horse once, she said that he had a very tense neck and suspected a previous break or fracture! She did some minor (she said) manipulations and told me to give him the next day off. The horse seemed to enjoy the physio treatment and i could not see any huge reactions going on just a bit of muscle reflexing
The next afternoon I had a call from the yard to say my horse was lying down in the field and would not get up, by the time I for to the yard he was back in his box (took a while) and laying down with his nose and neck stretched out as fat in front as possible a bit like he was trying to keep his nose in line with his withers. I panicked and gave him two bute by oral injection and 20 mins later he was up and whickering at me. I rugged him for 2 days after to keep the stiffness at bay. It was summer.
The physio was nice enough but was adamant it was not her fault but she did keep saying " well I didn't really do that much, not as much as I wanted to, could of" etc She offered me a follow up for free... I said no.
My vets advised me not to let her near my boy again but not quite as bluntly as that.
I would suggest that the physio over manipulated and that your horse is extremely sensitive to manipulation as some of us are.
I was thinking of getting my boy looked at again now though due to barefoot transition but think you have just put me off. Never mind only took 3 years to reconsider.

Hope your horsey is ok x

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

If he were mine, I'd keep him warm, keep him quietly moving around & give anti-inflammatory for 48 - 72 hours & see how results are after.

If no great change, then call woman back & also ensure your horse (regular) vet is there at same time so that they can piece together exactly what was done, for how long and what the solution to make the horse pain-free is going to be (as it was to start with).

Best of british with getting to the bottom of it, let us know how it goes

 

[Tonks]

Can I ask a question - Is she registered with the Chartered Society of Physiotherapits? First they become a human physio then specialise in animals where they then join the Association of Chartered Physiotherapists in Animal Therapy. If she isn't registered, then I wouldn't touch her with a barge pole.

Could she be a McTimony practitioner? If so, she should be registered with their body, which is slighly different. Sorry, if I'm asking questions you know the answers to!

I don't think there is anyway of proving/knowing whether there is a connection between her work and the unsoundness issues. He may have slipped in the field but it just so happened to be after the session. However, you would expect that a physio sesson would bring about a general improvement rather than regression or worsening over time and you do seem convinced that it was brought on by the phsyio sesson but bear in mind it may not have been.

I would also have him on anti-inflammatories, if you have any. Otherwise, I would get the vet out to give you some. But, that's extra expense, I suppose. Keep warm, gentle unridden walking, as you're doing.

If it continues, why not ask a vet to have a look at him who has a thermographer? They work by showing up extreme heat areas which would correlate with pain or extreme cold areas which would show lack of blood supply.

I must admit that I use two vets, one with a thermoscanner so that I can get a full as picture as possible.

Good luck and I hope he continues to improve.

 

[foxy1]

Speaking from a personal perspective, I have suffered terrible back pain, numbness and pins and needles in my legs after physio/chiropractor treatments and it took me years to recognise that it just makes me worse. I suffer from a congential spinal condition and from childhood have been referred for a lot of this type of treatment.

If my back starts to spasm (which sounds like your horse's could be) then lots of ibuprofen,(bute?) really helps to break the cycle of being in pain/trying not to move, which causes more pain, keeping warm and being able to choose a comfortable position all 'cure' me in 2 or 3 days. I can't tell you how painful it can be if I'm forced to sit still or get cold

 

[ihatework]

If it were me I'd call my vet up, explain the situation with the aim of getting their agreement to self administer bute short term. I'd rest and keep the horse warm. No improvement in 3-5 days I'd actually get the vet to look if I was convinced it was down to the physio.

I've never experienced a reaction like you describe, however I would be alarmed at the Physio reaction. Professionally I would expect them to be straight over to see the horse for themselves, their dismissive attitude would have me concerned about using them in future.

 

[cptrayes]

I am always told to let the horse have a day off following treatment, unless it is just a minor session

Her attitude would put me off using her again, it sounds as if she did too much in one go but is not prepared to say so, I have known my physio stop treating as she felt it was too intense and needed doing over a period of time rather than in one go.

Thanks BP, the fact that she told me to ride him the next day shows how minor she thought the issue was. I have made up my mind that she is not coming near him again because of her lack of acceptance that there is even the slightest possibility that she did too much to a sensitve horse. I wouldn't mind if she blamed him a bit as long as she accepted that it was possible that it was what she did that caused it.

I would suggest that the physio over manipulated and that your horse is extremely sensitive to manipulation as some of us are.
I was thinking of getting my boy looked at again now though due to barefoot transition but think you have just put me off. Never mind only took 3 years to reconsider.

Hope your horsey is ok x

He is a very sensitive horse Archie73 and I agree that she simply did too much. I wouldn't bother spending your money if I was you!

If he were mine, I'd keep him warm, keep him quietly moving around & give anti-inflammatory for 48 - 72 hours & see how results are after.

If no great change, then call woman back & also ensure your horse (regular) vet is there at same time so that they can piece together exactly what was done, for how long and what the solution to make the horse pain-free is going to be (as it was to start with).

Best of british with getting to the bottom of it, let us know how it goes

I've resisted giving him bute so far because he seems to be progressing well without it and I don't want to give him any excuse to overuse his back and strain something properly. If he doesn't continue to improve I will be getting a vet out.

Can I ask a question - Is she registered with the Chartered Society of Physiotherapits?

I don't think there is anyway of proving/knowing whether there is a connection between her work and the unsoundness issues. He may have slipped in the field but it just so happened to be after the session. However, you would expect that a physio sesson would bring about a general improvement rather than regression or worsening over time and you do seem convinced that it was brought on by the phsyio sesson but bear in mind it may not have been.

She is a fully qualified animal physiotherapist, 5 years training and lots of experience.

It would have had to have been an extreme co-incidence, I think, to have a slip that caused an absolutely equal sided spasm of the back at exactly the place she was working on. I am prepared to accept that there is a slight possibility that is the case, but she is not prepared to accept one tiny little bit that it was caused by her work. On top of that, I wrote her an email which made it clear that his back was stiff without me ever putting the saddle anywhere near him and twice after reading that she still tried to blame the saddle. That's what gets me.

Speaking from a personal perspective, I have suffered terrible back pain, numbness and pins and needles in my legs after physio/chiropractor treatments and it took me years to recognise that it just makes me worse. I suffer from a congential spinal condition and from childhood have been referred for a lot of this type of treatment.

If my back starts to spasm (which sounds like your horse's could be) then lots of ibuprofen,(bute?) really helps to break the cycle of being in pain/trying not to move, which causes more pain, keeping warm and being able to choose a comfortable position all 'cure' me in 2 or 3 days. I can't tell you how painful it can be if I'm forced to sit still or get cold

foxy1 my husband has similar back issues and was once treated by a charlatan chiro. After getting Ace in yesterday, I said to him that the way Ace was moving reminded me of what he was like after that chiro. I am sure his back was in spasm, both sides. It felt like a piece of hardboard, there was no give in it at all. Thankfully, he's a lot better after being kept very warm and gently moving all day.

If it were me I'd call my vet up, explain the situation with the aim of getting their agreement to self administer bute short term. I'd rest and keep the horse warm. No improvement in 3-5 days I'd actually get the vet to look if I was convinced it was down to the physio.

I've never experienced a reaction like you describe, however I would be alarmed at the Physio reaction. Professionally I would expect them to be straight over to see the horse for themselves, their dismissive attitude would have me concerned about using them in future.

The vet will be called if he doesn't keep up a constant improvement. I've lost one, I'm not taking risks with another.

Like you, I was very surprised that she did not say "I'll be over later to look him over". It was just "let me know how he gets on". I won't be bothering, it's not worth the cost of the telephone call.





Thanks everyone, it's helped a lot to talk about it. Hopefully he will improve even more overnight and I can report tomorrow.

 

[LMJ]

Hope he is a bit more comfy tomorrow

 

[Queenbee]

I don't think I want her anywhere near him at the moment Heat is doing wonders for him today, he;s in a winter rug in 20 c temperatures, inside a barn.



Shared with Ace by the look of it Faracat







Trouble is Queenbee, he wasn't a very stiff horse. I regularly check his back before putting on the saddle because he is a sensitive beastie, and it has never been a problem. He has been scoring around the 70% mark in unaffiilated prelims. And his history is that if he was in the slightest discomfort he makes it very, very plain! Body protector time plain, like he did yesterday It's not possible that I missed it, I would have been face down in the dirt.




Thanks for all the replies everyone, what would you do with him now? He's a lot better today and my instinct is to keep him rugged up warm, moving about gently and let him sort it out for himself.

Oh bless him, I would be as miffed as you, to be honest, even if my horse was stiff before, I would never expect them to be in discomfort the next day, I would expect them to do a little bit more each day they came back so as not to damage the horse, the fact that he is in pain will undoubtedly make his muscles tense and spasm which could cause issues that will need sorting out. It is even more worrying to hear that he is in such discomfort following a session, when he was not bad to start with, infact, scratch miffed, I would be livid. I agree, keep him warm, keep him moving and If you have any devils claw or such, I would probably be inclined to give him some for a few days to help take the edge off things and see how he is in a few days. I would not personally want anyone coming out a second time for my horse if this had been the result. I have had some wonderful practitioners with my horses, the work they have done has been fantastic, my sports massage therapist had my mare dropping her head carriage by a foot within one session. If I can have that kind of work done with my horses (ebony in particular did have a few issues) without her experiencing pain the following day, I see no point in having a physio out who can cause this level of pain.

Hope he is better soon x

 

[gunnergundog]

She is a fully qualified animal physiotherapist, 5 years training and lots of experience.


.

So, what are her precise qualifications? I take it that she is not Chartered? Is she ACPAT? If so, which list?

I assume that she is insured??? Also, that she treated with your vet's permission....TBH I would now be seeking the opinion of my vet and getting her insurance to pick up the bill if I was not happy.

HOWEVER, it is very hard to understand the extent of what she did and what happened without seeing firsthand.

 

[cptrayes]

Yes she is chartered with a masters degree in animal physio. I wouldn't have used anyone who wasn't a fully qualified physio, I don't have a great deal of belief in any of the other body workers.

I don't think that there is any possibility of claiming off her. First, I'm not a suing kind of person these days; we're all human and we all make mistakes. Second, there's no way whatsoever of proving that her treatment was not simply a coincidence.

I'm sure she affected nerves with what she did, because she was standing back from time to time and we were both watching the ripples of muscle movement run down his back while no-one was touching him. I can't see why that would happen without having pressed on nerves.

I would call the vet if I thought that there was anything that they could do. As it is, I think all they would say is to give him bute, but I see dangers in that. If his back is spasmed and we take the pain away before the spasm is released, he could do himself a serious muscle strain. He has made progress both the last two days and while he continues to progress I would prefer to do nothing and let nature take its course.

Thankfully, I have been taught by a previous physio how to do a proper massage of the saddle area, so I can judge properly how he is changing.

I wish she would accept that the likelihood, or even just the possibility, is that it is something that she did, even if he is an exceptionally sensitive horse, which he probably is. But my focus now is not on her, I have made up my mind never to have anything to do with her again after she failed to accept it was anything to do with her, and twice blamed a saddle that she had already been told had not even been on his back.

My focus now is on Ace, who should, I hope, have recovered some more by tomorrow after a warm night in a warm rug.

 

[Tonks]

I personally would want to get a second opinion and would get my vet to have a look at him. Although vets are not specialist and are like GP's they do have various bits of equipment that may be able to tell you more than the naked eye. Therefore, you may get a more definitive answer than you have at the moment. An an unqualified person, I personally wouldn't diagnose or palpate. Good luck - poor horsey!

 

[cptrayes]

Well that seals it for me. Today I can run my fingers along his back and have a gentle mound of soft muscle run along in front of them. Also he is not reacting at all to me pressing anywhere on his back.

I don't believe that a muscle pull, caused by a slip in the field overnight, would have completely disappeared like this in 48 hours, given that he had a back like a board on both sides. I can't put this down to anything but jangled nerves, and I can't see how it can possibly be a coincidence that she manipulated his back 18 hours before I found him with a board stiff back.

I'm thanking my lucky stars that nothing worse happened and I'll chalk it down to experience. Ace will have another two days off rugged up warm, and then I will see how he lunges on Saturday.

Thanks for all your help peeps.