Horse grooming me back - encourage or not?

[paddi22]

The horse I currently have is a rescue horse and he had been somewhat badly treated when i got him so he was always fairly wary . Recently he has relaxed a bit and now when i groom him or give him a good mane rub he start to groom me back by licking and gently nudging me. Its hilarious looking as he does full leg licks on me and then seems to nuzzel under the knee to make sure im clean.

My question is, I don't know whether to encourage it or stop him each time he starts? My last horse never did it. I don't know if it just means he's bonded with me (a good thing) or if it means he thinks we are equal (and that im not the boss).

Anyones opinions on it would be great!

 

[fburton]

If you're happy about mutual grooming, then I don't see any reason why you shouldn't do it. I would put dominance concerns out of your mind as it is perfectly possible to engage in this kind of activity, which can have positive effects on the relationship, without compromising your ability to "call the shots".

 

[maxapple]

I think its an indication he's comfortable with you and happy - so not sure why it would be a bad thing.

Our horse is currently cross tied at the vets. He has been there for 7 weeks, so has had no contact with other horses for that long. When I groom him, he often grooms me back. I have to watch out for his teeth as he can nip (like you see them do to each other) - I think him grroming me is sweet!

 

[paddi22]

yeah i think you are right, my automatic reaction was to be happy he was interacting positively with me. A friend mentioned that her horse used to do it, and took a chuck out of her leg when the grooming got a bit too enthusiatic!

 

[doratheexplorer]

Mine muzzles and nibbles my back when i groom him and I'm soppy, so I think it's cute!! Just becareful if yours gets a little to enthusiastic that he doesn't unintentionally hurt you!!

 

[Navalgem]

I spoke to an animal (equine) behaviourist about this recently, they advised that mutual grooming is good, but it is always the dominant 'horse' that initiates it, so if you are scratching/grooming your horse it is fine for him/her to groom you back but don't let them initiate it or you might find they start taking liberties

 

[TheEquineOak]

I would encourage it!!

It shows mutual respect and he's obviously comfortable.

Be wary of nipping. Horses do this to each other in the field as a way of grooming but you certainly don't want your horse nipping you... it hurts us a lot more When my gelding started to do it I firmly told him NO, now he just sticks to nuzzling. I DO NOT let horses rub themselves against me

My boy has turned into a bit of a perv though....he only tends to nuzzle/nip my backside

 

[paddi22]

oh thats a good point about who starts it first. that completely makes sense. I think i was just worried as my horses energy and spirit seems to be coming back and he is testing out a lot of behaviour on me (bad and good) for the first time. I just want to be consistent in how i treat him, my first reaction was to be thrilled he started grooming me as its the first time he's been playful with me and really seemed focused on me and just enjoying the interaction between us.
Its great having a forum like this for feedback- im on a yard on my own and its good to still be able to hear other opinions!

 

[soulfull]

you can teach most of them when enough is enough, ie my own now knows that gently is allowed but that he is not allowed to be rough. You might get a few accidental nips along the way but they do learn.

As long as it is gentle and he is not pushing you out of your position then it is lovely and mutual. If however he gets a little rough then its time to stop him as he may well be pushing the boundaries

That is just MHO and how I do it.

I did have a dominant horse that I would not allow to groom me as he did it in a different way which I felt uncomfortable with, but sweet little Micah is just that sweet and loving so is allowed 'gently'

 

[fburton]

I spoke to an animal (equine) behaviourist about this recently, they advised that mutual grooming is good, but it is always the dominant 'horse' that initiates it, so if you are scratching/grooming your horse it is fine for him/her to groom you back but don't let them initiate it or you might find they start taking liberties

I'm afraid your behaviourist was wrong - sorry! It isn't always the dominant that initiates - I have seen subordinates doing so too. (I've also seen both reported in books, including one book which said one thing on one page and the opposite on another!) Having said that, it makes sense from a purely practical reason to be the one to initiate - no unwanted surprises.

 

[Dexter]

Both the babies love scritches! One just gurns, the other grooms me back. He was very quickly taught not to use teeth or push me around, but he lives for his scritches. Hes not allowed to do it when being groomed with brushes, but the rest of the time I dont mind at all, in fact I actually love my Dexter scritching sessions

 

[Tinypony]

I'm afraid your behaviourist was wrong - sorry! It isn't always the dominant that initiates - I have seen subordinates doing so too. (I've also seen both reported in books, including one book which said one thing on one page and the opposite on another!) Having said that, it makes sense from a purely practical reason to be the one to initiate - no unwanted surprises.

Yes, what Fburton said, we agree again. ;-)
Attitude is everything isn't it? My fluffy pony initiates grooming, when I'm poo picking I hear her huffling and puffling up behind me, giving plenty of warning of her approach. When she gets to me she just puffs at me and touches me with her nose. I've got no problems with that. (Wouldn't listen to music on ear plug thingies though, she could give me a heart attack if I didn't hear her coming!).

 

[noodle_]

i scratch my horses shoulders and she grooms me back - which is fine when i have around 6 layers on

but bless her she gets a little nippy lol!!!.....

but yeh - i scratch her shoulders she goes all soft and grooms me back - i think its lovely

so yeah - definately encourage it - but i would only encourage it on your terms!....

 

[mymare]

I'm afraid your behaviourist was wrong - sorry! It isn't always the dominant that initiates - I have seen subordinates doing so too.

^^^ ditto.

 

[Lucinda_x]

Our horse is currently cross tied at the vets. He has been there for 7 weeks, so has had no contact with other horses for that long. When I groom him, he often grooms me back. I have to watch out for his teeth as he can nip (like you see them do to each other) - I think him grroming me is sweet!

Our mare took it up after being crosed tied for around a month (still tied up for 2 more months after that though ) and still does it now!

 

[cyberhorse]

I think it is fine. Roo does it and has never gone too far and nipped. He started doing it after we had had him a few weeks so it is probably a bonding thing. It is sharing dinner by putting it in my hood or down the back of my neck that I just don't get!

 

[Tormenta]

I spoke to an animal (equine) behaviourist about this recently, they advised that mutual grooming is good, but it is always the dominant 'horse' that initiates it, so if you are scratching/grooming your horse it is fine for him/her to groom you back but don't let them initiate it or you might find they start taking liberties

I'm not sure about that! (In my point of view obviously) . Two of mine love a mutual grooming session, one is dominant in the herd and one is second from the bottom. Sometimes I initiate it and sometimes they come over and politely ask if I would like to partake. Certainly no pushing me around and demanding at all. If I am busy and decline, they wander off again. One of them I have owned for six years and his manners have not changed in any way, he is still respectful and polite. One of my mares also enjoys a grooming session but only likes her bottom done, she reverses up and stands a couple of feet away, looks around at me and asks.

There is something very endearing about a grooming session, a sort of oneness and being close to that animal, I actually really appreciate and enjoy those little moments.

 

[Navalgem]

Well, I can see your point, but (having no scientific evidence for this - I'm surmising) the subordinates will initiate it differently i'd bet. As Tiny pony said

when I'm poo picking I hear her huffling and puffling up behind me, giving plenty of warning of her approach. When she gets to me she just puffs at me and touches me with her nose

and Tormenta

they come over and politely ask if I would like to partake

. So from my behaviourists view, they would still view the human as dominant and 'ask' to start grooming. Hope that makes sense. That's just how I see it, I like nice discussion, helps us all have a better and sometimes more balanced understanding. I'd love to sit and watch wild horses and work out their ranks and investigate whether there is a difference in the way grooming is initiated between horses of higher/lower rank. Not that I think for one minute if a dominant horse initiates grooming by just walking up and the subordinate wanders away thereby declining that there are repercussions. I'd just expect a more dominant horse to initiate without asking, whereas a subordinate horse would 'ask'. Hope that makes sense. I'm no behaviourist!

 

[fburton]

From the point of view of some ethologists/behaviourists, dominance simply isn't relevant in situations where a horse and human are interacting peacefully and non-competitively. Horses don't naturally view us other horses, and so it is very unlikely that a horse would think to initiate mutual grooming with a person unless the urge to 'return the favour' is stimulated by something the person does - it could be brushing, or scratching an itchy spot. Even when that happens, we shouldn't assume they suddenly think we are horses after all - they may just be responding to a salient stimulus. That is what I believe.

If we don't allow horses to groom us back (or we are not standing in a position where that is possible), they will usually an pull an ecstatic face and wibble their lip just as they would if they were scratching their bum on a post. But if there is someone or something (like a rug hung over the stable door) there that they can easily reach, they will start to 'groom' him/her/that. Many of us will have got a horse to start grooming another horse in this way. When we initiate it, it's more like a reflex reaction. Of course, a horse may learn to initiate it for the reward that follows, but we shouldn't assume they do so with any thoughts of relative dominance ranking (though clearly people do!).

Not all behaviourists buy into the idea that dominance is at the core of everything we do with horses.

 

[Navalgem]

I should perhaps qualify why i've heard from a behaviourist (and it is a weird situation). My YO has an orphan foal - now 3, who has decided to assert dominance, she does view people as other horses, hence the behaviourists comment. The horse wouldn't allow people in her stable, nor would she allow them to touch her unless she wanted them to. She was very dangerous and was almost pts. She also told the YO to do similar things to monty roberis in sending the horse away through aggressive body language. The difference in the horse is astounding, though I accept this is a strange situation.

I think mutual grooming occurs for many reasons in a normal circumstance, some of which you said, partly for reward through classical conditioning. I do disagree with what you say about them not having ideas of dominance ranking - I think a large part of their behaviour is related to this and I do believe it has an effect on how they interact with us. I don't think they view us as horses as such - we clearly aren't equine, but for the most part we are dominant to them, or they wouldn't allow us to shoe, saddle and bridle them, never mind ride on their back.

I'd like to point out that I think we gain their respect by being fair taskmasters, not by beating them up. In case anyone thinks I'm some s&m freak lol.

 

[ladyearl]

My horse does it and I think it's lovely. I'm usually grooming her at the time and she'll wibble her lips if I move nearer she'll do it to me. Can nip if too enthuisaistic but never means to hurt and if I make a noise she'll stop immediately. She only started doing after we'd got to know each other so I've taken it as a relaxing in my company thing.

 

[Peanut&miley1]

I have a question my horse doesn’t usually groom me just my mom’s horse does to us both but today as I was walking to are 3rd paddock with him he started kinda what seemed like grooming me out of nowhere and then rubbed his head on me he did it really gently so I wasn’t too sure what it meant he isn’t the type of horse to show much affection and I’ve only had him for 3 weeks so if anybody knows what this means can you help? Also I was wearing my treat pouch and he was muzzling that but I rarely have treats in there and only my phone now and he isn’t the type of horse to bug you about treats he is extremely respectful! So do you think he wanted attention or something else?