Horse hates a contact :WWYD?

[Kallibear]

Roo is a sensitive soul. Very sensitive. He will do ANYTHING to escape pressure, even minor pressure. It makes him extremely polite and easy to handle and ride but also sometimes a little panicky. It also makes a contact almost unbearable for him

He is also a mild headshaker (proper trigeminal nerve headshaker, which I'm pretty sure is triggered by light), which makes his head tossing even more difficult to work through but it's currently not a problem (his headshaking is a different movement from his headtossing and irritation with his bit) so now is a good time to try working through his contact issue.

He's rising 5yrs old, was lightly broken as a 3.5yr old and gently hacked. Last summer (as a 4yr old) we did a bit more: a little schooling, some common rides, a little jumping but mainly hacking. But he's had a potted schooling history due to self harm (and lack of facilities) and last summer/Autumn his head shaking became apparent, so I basically ignored his headtossing, gave up trying to work on a consistent contact, hacked on long rein and hoped he'd either get over it or it'd improve in the winter. Then in the autumn he didn't quite make it over a 5ft metal field gate, cost lots of money to have glued and stitched back together and is now only just starting work again. He's currently just hacking, short rides 5 times a week.

Anyways; he HATES a contact. It's alien to everything he's ever been taught about pressure: you move away from the pressure and the pressure goes away. Except the damn contact keeps following him and god is it irritating!

He's tried LOTS of bits and is now in a comfort snaffle. It's the only bit that he doesn't rattle about, mouth gapping and tongue lolling, trying to get away from. He will tolerate a contact for maybe a few mins before tossing his head. In other bits we'd be lucky to get 10seconds. I tried him back in a lozenge bit the other day (well, you never know!!) and he almost fell over whilst throwing his head about.

He is also worse once in an outline. He'll hold a contact with his back up and his neck and head down but after 30sec or so he'll headflip and start messing about with his mouth, until told No!! . Then he'll stop it for another 15-30sec before doing it again. Now, I've so far accepted that he's just weak, finds it hard and is still wobbly but I'm becoming worried it's might be more sinister.

His saddle is a good fit. He has 6-monthly dentals. He's also physio-ed and had all the tightness associated with head shakers (tense neck, tight hamstrings etc) but nothing else and that's fixed as much as possible. He was also deemed completely sound post fence-jumping escapades. I'm a decent enough rider with soft, independent hands although it is hard not to end up jabbing him in the mouth when he's throwing his head about like a twit.

It's also of note that he ALSO head tosses and faffs when ridden in a bitless (Micklem) with a contact. It's the unrelieved pressure he hates rather than the bit itself.

He also does it LESS when there's something else happening. Things to stare at or when jumping (which he loves). He's not in an outline at the time but he forgets how irritating the contact is.

So, in my ramble and musing, I suppose I'd ask: what would you do? Investigate potential physical problems further (and what? And if anyone wants to make a donation, please feel free!). Start trying different bits again? He is TERRIBLE in some (esp lozenges like NS) and almost ok in the current one. Tell him to man up and stop being such a drama queen? That's my current plan of action


To give you the idea of how bad his head tossing can be, he does this when in a real strop. It's so severe he's not even in the photo! (It's actually the only one I have of him in action)
This was taken when first turned out after weeks of box rest due to The Gate Fiasco. He was so excited and had just rolled and got mud in his ears.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd....37_5872772529114316930_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

Remove the noseband. Check the browband is correct width and not pinching his ears. Is he reacting to poll pressure too? I think there is a bridle on the market with cut back sections by the ears?

When were his teeth last done too? What's he like if you long rein him?

 

[NZJenny]

Young horses have a lot to cope with when we start riding them. So my preference is to start them bitless and leave them bitless until everything else is sorted.

Some it's only a few weeks, and some it takes months. It sounds like your boy has more than his far share of issues to cope with - good on you for taking them on. So my question would be - how is he when he is led and handled in a halter on the ground? And start from there.

 

[Kallibear]

He's usually in Micklem. Never wears a browband (*sad face* cos I'd live a Equiture bling one for him!). Currently in a specially shaped cutback headpiece and cheeks only (no noseband, not even a throatlash). Without a browband it slides back and sits a good 2" behind his ears, not even on his poll

He messes about in long reins too but finds it easier to get away from the pressure as the length of reins makes reactions slower so the contact isn't as consistent.

He had his teeth done 4 months ago. Due again beginning of May.

 

[be positive]

He may be related to my ginger, headshaking, sensitive ISH, following his last incident where his mouth was injured, after his leg was injured, a pattern is emerging, he is now ridden in a Nathe, Micklem and nosenet, the Nathe is the only bit he copes with now, he used to go ok in either a chunky hollow eggbut or a sweet iron with lozenge but can no longer cope with metal in his mouth.
In summer if he gets really bad he wears a full face net with the nosenet, he is usually fine out hacking unless he gets upset and the shaking gets worse as he becomes more wound up, schooling is not great but jumping takes his mind off everything and he just gets on with it, his favourite above all else in life, not much help for you but sometimes it helps to know there are others going through similar.

I think all the slow hacking he has done in the very long rehab from various injuries has helped with the contact issue, I ride him on a long rein but always with a light contact, I used running reins to help as he was very sharp and they acted as security so I could allow him to go on a longish rein but had something I could use in an emergency, there were a few, that would not mean he ended up running off with his head up high, that tends to be his reaction, his leg couldn't be risked and it gave me the ability to regain control without hauling at his mouth, they were usually loose on his neck with just a finger through ready to pick up as required, I think having them has helped him learn to trust again by only being restrictive when absolutely necessary, they do need to trust the bit is not going to hurt and that while they need to be submissive to it that does not mean being unable to go forward into it.

 

[Kallibear]

Young horses have a lot to cope with when we start riding them. So my preference is to start them bitless and leave them bitless until everything else is sorted.

Some it's only a few weeks, and some it takes months. It sounds like your boy has more than his far share of issues to cope with - good on you for taking them on. So my question would be - how is he when he is led and handled in a halter on the ground? And start from there.

He's fabulous to handle in headcollar and doesn't really need one: a string round his neck is plenty. He gets upset if you were to put pressure on his headcollar but not allow him to release it moving away, or if you followed him with the pressure. It's what all horses should be taught: move away from pressure. He's exceptionally good at it!!

He's excellent to ride in a bitless and I've Common Ridden him (like summer hunting) in just his Micklem directly to the noseband. Very responsive, never strong. But still gets upset if you take a contact up on that.

When initially broken he wore his bit to get used to it but was directed off his headcollar. Never been a problem and the change to directions to his bit was smooth and easy. He never fights and quickly respond to directions as asked but his reward for that is the pressure going away.

We can do a lovely dressage test on a fully long rein (holding the buckle) BTW!

 

[Kallibear]

He may be related to my ginger, headshaking, sensitive ISH, following his last incident where his mouth was injured, after his leg was injured, a pattern is emerging, he is now ridden in a Nathe, Micklem and nosenet, the Nathe is the only bit he copes with now, he used to go ok in either a chunky hollow eggbut or a sweet iron with lozenge but can no longer cope with metal in his mouth.
In summer if he gets really bad he wears a full face net with the nosenet, he is usually fine out hacking unless he gets upset and the shaking gets worse as he becomes more wound up, schooling is not great but jumping takes his mind off everything and he just gets on with it, his favourite above all else in life, not much help for you but sometimes it helps to know there are others going through similar.

I think all the slow hacking he has done in the very long rehab from various injuries has helped with the contact issue, I ride him on a long rein but always with a light contact, I used running reins to help as he was very sharp and they acted as security so I could allow him to go on a longish rein but had something I could use in an emergency, there were a few, that would not mean he ended up running off with his head up high, that tends to be his reaction, his leg couldn't be risked and it gave me the ability to regain control without hauling at his mouth, they were usually loose on his neck with just a finger through ready to pick up as required, I think having them has helped him learn to trust again by only being restrictive when absolutely necessary, they do need to trust the bit is not going to hurt and that while they need to be submissive to it that does not mean being unable to go forward into it.

You have my horse?! Keep him please.

I've not tried (or even seen!) a Nathe bit but have heard of them. I wonder if hiring one to try would be worth it? But I'm loathe to upset the Almost Happy Medium as he's almost ok in the comfort snaffle (his reaction to ones he dislikes is violent!). I doubt they do a Nathe Comfort Snaffle (off to look)

ETA: just looked into Nathe bits and they're expensive! !! I can't justify spending that without being able to try first. They don't come on trial due to being chewable apparently. I'd spend that if I KNEW it'd work but not just to 'have a go'. Lets see what's on ebay....

The nosenet will be coming out shortly (although the irritation actually makes him worse for a while so it's hard to tell if he's Headshaking or just headtossing and faffing) Mask also at the ready. But because he makes such a fuss about them I'd like to sort the bitting contact issue first before complicating it.

I've considered trying him breifly draw reins or standing martingale to stop him being able to flip his head right up like shown. Mostly because when told NO!!! he stops it. They're not a long term solution though.

The long slow hacking is what Roo will be doing for the next month so I'm leaning towards it being the ideal time to get him used to a contact and stop being such a baby. But I can't help worrying that it's something more serious than him just being a Drama Llama

P.s I don't envy you if yours is also sharp or spooky!!!! Roo is a sensitive little flower but he's very laid back and not at all sharp, although he can be excitable. Thank god!

 

[Cobbytype]

Could you ride him safely in a padded head collar?

 

[Illusion100]

It sounds like your horse is unsure how to deal with pressure. Unsure when to submit to pressure and unsure when to respond to pressure.

He appears confused as to what is expected of him.

 

[YasandCrystal]

He sounds super sensitive. In your shoes I would have an osteopath who does cranial sacral work look at him. Cranial sacral is very unintrusive yet very powerful.

I use a straightness trainer who is all about biomechanics. She spent months with my youngster and I balancing him in the Manege on the ground before I backed him. Part of that work was bit work and getting him to understand inhand,upward not backward bit pressure and release. This has made miles of difference to my youngster who is a Dales so has a natural high head carriage. He accepts pressure release really well. So maybe some in hand biting work with an expert could help. Lastly all of mine are in Neue Schule Salox bits. The youngsters are in Fulmer lozenge style and they mouth beautifully in them and their Micklem bridles.

My youngster had to have his wolf teeth removed last spring. I was advised to do so as they were so big and would interfere with the bit. Has your horse any?

 

[Caol Ila]

That's almost a horse I would want to gently desensitize to pressure. I want my horse to move away from pressure, but I want them to soften to it and I don't want them so sensitive and reactive to it that they panic at it. Obviously the headshaking adds another layer of complication, but I'd try to get the horse to respond to pressure, any pressure, in a relaxed manner.

How is your contact? I ride my horse in a contact that is present, but very light and I think of my hands as pushing the contact forward -- the metaphor in my head is pushing a shopping trolley -- rather than holding the horse or bringing her back. She's a very different sort of horse than yours -- so laidback when schooling she is horizontal -- and riding with a stronger contact is like keeping the handbrake on; she just does not go. With a suitably soft, allowing hand, she does go.

 

[SkewbyTwo]

Definitely no wolf teeth? Dentists can miss them.

 

[nettle]

Have you tried dropping the bit down a hole ( or two)?

 

[Dazed'n'confused]

Haven't read all the replies so apologies if this has been suggested already: have you a school that you can free school in? If so I would try warming him up on the lunge (with tack on but lunge off a headcollar & not the bit or a cavasson) & then send him round the school with VERY LOOSE side reins on, preferably those with the rubber bits that add a small amount of weight to them. The idea is that the contact is there but in no way tight & hopefully he will seek it eventually. Make him go forward at all costs (may need 2 or 3 of you depending on size of school). Every time he tries to have a strop send him forwards. Also put some trotting poles down (when he's got the hang of going round) so that he has something else to think about, he strengthens his back & he has to look where he's going! Also use blocks at each corner so he has to go round them on the outside - makes them stand up instead of motorbiking!!
I wouldn't long rein anything but especially not a horse that is quirky in his mouth - they need to learn to go into the contact by forward means! Just my preference...
Hope you find a solution, you clearly deserve some reward from this boy for all you've done for him so far! Blummin horses

 

[ester]

train him western bitless?

 

[JillA]

If you have done all the checks and worked on his attitude to pressure, then there may be a diet component, particularly mineral balance or vitamin D (is he mostly stabled or rugged?). Contact Jenny Patterson at Calm Healthy Horses, she is helpful and has done some investigating http://calmhealthyhorses.com/neuro/head_flick.html

 

[angel7]

Forget English style riding, take him western for the contact issue.
Headshaking should be looked at separately, consider further veterinary input for treatment.
You have tried so many things I think if he's miserable being worked as such (and he sounds misearable if he's reacting as extremely as you say) you need to reassess your approach. I don't feel its fair to start gadgets to try and make him submit or put up with what is being asked.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think you need veterinary Input on whether the head shaking and the extreme reluctance to accept contact are likely to be linked .
I also would not being trying bitless on a horse who was diagnosed as a true head shaker with out advice because of the pressure on the face .

 

[Kallibear]

Thank you for all the replies. I'll try to answer each so bear with me!

Could you ride him safely in a padded head collar?

Yes, absolutely, and I often do, esp when I gave up having a contact as a bad job. I'd happily hunt him in a headcollar. But I want to compete him (just RC stuff) so he needs to work in an outline, with a contact. But he still dislikes a contact even on a padded headcollar and tosses his head about after a while. The unrelieved pressure annoys and frustrates him.

It sounds like your horse is unsure how to deal with pressure. Unsure when to submit to pressure and unsure when to respond to pressure.

He appears confused as to what is expected of him.

What do you mean? He's pretty good with pressure and responds as taught: move away and it'll go away. He is not overly sensitive or fearful of pressure, if that's what you mean? He doesn't panic at the prospect of pressure, he just moves away calmly and quietly until the pressure stops. He only gets upset if the pressure won't go away or he's trapped and can't get away: for example asking him to move sideways when he's against a wall and can't move sideways will upset him, he'll then try to run forwards or, if there's a human in the way, go backwards. If you kept pushing he'd start to panic and get really upset that he can't do as asked.

He is very sensitive and also very intolerant of unpleasant things or what he deems ' unpleasant'. A flat hand pushed against him will make him move easily but he would tolerate the pressure without getting upset if it doesn't relent (based on my response and body language: if he think he's meant to be moving but can't then he'll get upset. If my body language says 'it's fine' he'll tolerate and ignore it as instructed. But that's for 'acceptable' pressure'. If you poked him.......

He sounds super sensitive. In your shoes I would have an osteopath who does cranial sacral work look at him. Cranial sacral is very unintrusive yet very powerful.

I use a straightness trainer who is all about biomechanics. She spent months with my youngster and I balancing him in the Manege on the ground before I backed him. Part of that work was bit work and getting him to understand inhand,upward not backward bit pressure and release. This has made miles of difference to my youngster who is a Dales so has a natural high head carriage. He accepts pressure release really well. So maybe some in hand biting work with an expert could help. Lastly all of mine are in Neue Schule Salox bits. The youngsters are in Fulmer lozenge style and they mouth beautifully in them and their Micklem bridles.

My youngster had to have his wolf teeth removed last spring. I was advised to do so as they were so big and would interfere with the bit. Has your horse any?

That sounds interesting, thanks. I'll look into it. Now my large vet bill has been paid off I'll have spare pennies to spend on more physio or similar.

Roo is excellent at pressure & release! It's the part where it doesn't release (like a contact) that he's not good at!

NS are Not His Friend. Tried a Starter, a Team Up and TransAngled (OMG, the expense!) and wasn't a fan. They're now keeping the local horse community happy, lucky them. I'm thinking I might borrow them back as they were tried when his headshaking was starting so makes assessment much harder. I'd love to try a Comfy Contact (posh version of a Comfort Snaffle) but they're £260!!!!

His wolf teeth are tiny, far back and well seated. They were checked last time, with a bit in, as I'd discussed the problem with the vet.

That's almost a horse I would want to gently desensitize to pressure. I want my horse to move away from pressure, but I want them to soften to it and I don't want them so sensitive and reactive to it that they panic at it. Obviously the headshaking adds another layer of complication, but I'd try to get the horse to respond to pressure, any pressure, in a relaxed manner.

How is your contact? I ride my horse in a contact that is present, but very light and I think of my hands as pushing the contact forward -- the metaphor in my head is pushing a shopping trolley -- rather than holding the horse or bringing her back. She's a very different sort of horse than yours -- so laidback when schooling she is horizontal -- and riding with a stronger contact is like keeping the handbrake on; she just does not go. With a suitably soft, allowing hand, she does go.

How would you go about desensitizing? I can see a shape of training in my head but would be interested in others thought. See above about his reaction to pressure: he's not in the slightest bit panicky or overreactive about pressure UNLESS he feels unable to respond correctly because he's trapped (it upsets him that he's not doing as asked and may now get told off: he's incredibly sweet and so so desperate to please and be rewarded)

My contact is good. It's had to be! If I get at all handsy or heavy he goes nuts. When it's featherlight, soft and responsive he'll tolerate it for a while before it annoys him. I'm thinking of finding someone local try try riding him. I don't think it's me (instructor doesn't think so either) but willing to accept it might be! There's one rider I've seen who looks lovely so I'm going to ask her. There's also plenty of 'pro' riders who aren't getting near him!

Definitely no wolf teeth? Dentists can miss them.

Nope, that'd be too easy

Have you tried dropping the bit down a hole ( or two)?

Tried that. Again, sadly too easy Oh for an easy horse . He's happiest when the bit is up against the corners but not pulling. The Comfort Snaffle fits slightly different due to it's bend arms and is designed for horses with 'short smiles' so it can sit high enough on the tongue without pulling on the lips (one thing he hated about other bits)

Haven't read all the replies so apologies if this has been suggested already: have you a school that you can free school in? If so I would try warming him up on the lunge (with tack on but lunge off a headcollar & not the bit or a cavasson) & then send him round the school with VERY LOOSE side reins on, preferably those with the rubber bits that add a small amount of weight to them. The idea is that the contact is there but in no way tight & hopefully he will seek it eventually . Make him go forward at all costs (may need 2 or 3 of you depending on size of school). Every time he tries to have a strop send him forwards. Also put some trotting poles down (when he's got the hang of going round) so that he has something else to think about, he strengthens his back & he has to look where he's going! Also use blocks at each corner so he has to go round them on the outside - makes them stand up instead of motorbiking!!
I wouldn't long rein anything but especially not a horse that is quirky in his mouth - they need to learn to go into the contact by forward means! Just my preference...
Hope you find a solution, you clearly deserve some reward from this boy for all you've done for him so far! Blummin horses

Thanks and excellent plan but therein lies the problem: he never 'seeks' a contact because he doesn't like it!! I've done a little loose and lunge work with him (hard due to lack of school!) and he just tucks himself slightly behind the 'contact' something he can't do when ridden as Mean Mummy follows him) and is fairly happy until he wobbles and looses balance. He's quite a contortionist and I'd have to do the reins cruel tight before he can't escape. Not something I'm willing to do.

ETA : that's interested about a 'weighted' rein so there's always pressure regardless of where he goes. I'll get my thinking hat on. Slobber straps maybe?

train him western bitless?

It's starting to appeal! But I want to compete English style (not much western in Scotland!)

If you have done all the checks and worked on his attitude to pressure, then there may be a diet component, particularly mineral balance or vitamin D (is he mostly stabled or rugged?). Contact Jenny Patterson at Calm Healthy Horses, she is helpful and has done some investigating http://calmhealthyhorses.com/neuro/head_flick.html

That's really interesting reading, thanks. There's a lot of info and also a little heartening as he's clearly only a mild headshaker (nose twitch, occasional head tossing, very little nose rubbing or pawing) He lives out 24/7 and rugged in bad weather. Lives on adlib haylege and just a token feed to get his minerals. He's recently started on a good mineral balancer with supplement copper and linseed as he's barefoot but was struggling. It's already helped his feet and improved his coat (was a bit scurffy) and crossing all fingers and toes that it might help his head shaking too.

Forget English style riding, take him western for the contact issue.
Headshaking should be looked at separately, consider further veterinary input for treatment.
You have tried so many things I think if he's miserable being worked as such (and he sounds misearable if he's reacting as extremely as you say) you need to reassess your approach. I don't feel its fair to start gadgets to try and make him submit or put up with what is being asked.

See about Re western. I think we should move to the US. His reaction is only extreme in a bit he hates. His strop in his preferred bit does appear to be Drama Llama more than genuine distress. Or so I'm really really hoping!!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

have his wolf teeth out and then see where you are at. I dont know why anyone in this day and age leaves them in as they IME always cause an issue at some point.

for the sake of a bit of £££ have peace of mind they are not hurting then you can move forward but i really dont understand why they havent already been removed.

 

[EllieBeast]

Try a bitting expert? I can highly recommend hillary Vernon (informed bitting) , she does clinics all over the place and brings a huge selection of bits that you can ride in before buying. Really helped me with my youngster?

 

[touchstone]

I'd try a leather bit with him, he sounds a perfect candidate for one.

 

[wench]

Have you considered a thermal imaging scan? Maybe it might show up if there are issues somewhere in his head/neck that no-one has found yet? If you can find someone local to do it, shouldnt be lots of £££.

There was someone on here who had some sucess with bowen for her headshaker I think

 

[Firefly9410]

I would do endurance riding with him and use a western bosal bitless bridle because it has no pressure until you raise the reins which tips the noseband onto the nose. I do not know where the head shaking nerve is so cannot tell you if that would be affected by the position of the bosal. You can show jump in a bitless bridle if you wanted to compete with your riding club. If you want to persevere with normal riding you could choose to forget the traditional concept of contact and approach it from the western riding concept where your contact is the weight of the reins. You could then teach him to carry himself in an outline in true self carriage which it sounds like you have already started, but it will take ages if you are not supporting him at any point with a traditional English riding contact. As you have found he will freak out a bit when it gets too hard to maintain the outline. A normal horse would lose balance a little maybe lean on the bit briefly when it got difficult. If you persevere with your training with breaks on a long rein whenever necessary he will improve his ability to hold the outline for longer. It all depends what you want from him and life but he sounds a lovely horse as he is and I would not be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole so it would be endurance riding for me. Or maybe try Trec if that is in your area? I am not familiar with the bitting rules for that.

 

[Kallibear]

I had an...informative? ride this morn. He was very very good with almost no headshaking and managed, without fuss, for a good 30min in a light contact.

There was a couple of factors I'll need to work through:

1) he was let out into the summer paddock pre-tacking up and spent a happy 10mins going round and round (and round and round and round) in a canter gallop. Aggggh, the mess!!! Did it help his loosen off and let off steam? (He lives out 24/7 in a 3acre winter trash paddock so being allowed in used-to-be-until-this-morning smooth summer paddock is exciting and requires much running around) he's been allowed to do so pre-rides before but I've never really thought about if it's affects his faffing.

2) He wore an elasticated bungee. Made of soft shock cord that ran from the breastplate chest ring, through the bit rings and back. It was very loose and only tightened if he either tried picking the pine-cones off the road (sigh) or when he flipped his nose right up. In a normal head position it was loopy. Was it enough to discourage the violent headshake, so he decided to just not bother? He's worn one before and knows that head-flipping causes it to tighten, but only for the extreme headtoss.

3) He went on a route he's never been before. He was VERY distracted looking at everything (not spooky, just interested) and occasionally anxious. Interestingly, when we returned, on the last 10min home, onto a route he knows really well he started to headflip and faff within 30 sec of turning the corner and going ' oh, I know where we are!' ........Possibly the most telling?

4) This is day 8 of insisting on a gentle contact regardless of what fuss he makes. Previously I've given up as a bad job and loafed along on a long rein (or he's injured himself to get out of work). Is he just starting to accept that it's tough and he'll just have to get over it.

5 )He had 2 mint tictacs....... Normally he gets a herbal treat or carrot cube for standing still to be mounted (and a good neck flexing exercise). This time he shared my tictacs. Unlikely but you never know.....

have his wolf teeth out and then see where you are at. I dont know why anyone in this day and age leaves them in as they IME always cause an issue at some point.

for the sake of a bit of £££ have peace of mind they are not hurting then you can move forward but i really dont understand why they havent already been removed.

I discuss it with the vet at his next dental. They looked last time and said they wouldn't take them out as standard as they're tiny, well rooted and hard up against the premolars. I poked in his mouth today and the bit sits a good 1" + in front of them.

Try a bitting expert? I can highly recommend hillary Vernon (informed bitting) , she does clinics all over the place and brings a huge selection of bits that you can ride in before buying. Really helped me with my youngster?

I've contacted the bitbank, who said I'm to call them (Friday's plan). I'd be interested in someone to come out: anyone know if there's someone who covers central Scotland?

I'd try a leather bit with him, he sounds a perfect candidate for one.

*OFF to google them* They're ....odd?. some are quite uncomfortable looking square shaped? They do a leather covered bit bit only in standard snaffles. I wonder if I could get my ComfortSnaffle covered?

Have you considered a thermal imaging scan? Maybe it might show up if there are issues somewhere in his head/neck that no-one has found yet? If you can find someone local to do it, shouldnt be lots of £££.

There was someone on here who had some sucess with bowen for her headshaker I think

Yes, I've looked into it and there's someone local. BUT they need to be fully clipped (or very short summer coat) so it'll need to wait until he's full moulted. Last time I decided to spend the pennies of physio instead (can't afford ALL the different treatments! )

I would do endurance riding with him and use a western bosal bitless bridle because it has no pressure until you raise the reins which tips the noseband onto the nose. I do not know where the head shaking nerve is so cannot tell you if that would be affected by the position of the bosal. You can show jump in a bitless bridle if you wanted to compete with your riding club. If you want to persevere with normal riding you could choose to forget the traditional concept of contact and approach it from the western riding concept where your contact is the weight of the reins. You could then teach him to carry himself in an outline in true self carriage which it sounds like you have already started, but it will take ages if you are not supporting him at any point with a traditional English riding contact. As you have found he will freak out a bit when it gets too hard to maintain the outline. A normal horse would lose balance a little maybe lean on the bit briefly when it got difficult. If you persevere with your training with breaks on a long rein whenever necessary he will improve his ability to hold the outline for longer. It all depends what you want from him and life but he sounds a lovely horse as he is and I would not be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole so it would be endurance riding for me. Or maybe try Trec if that is in your area? I am not familiar with the bitting rules for that.

Thanks. Your right, I can do most thinks in a bitless without a contact but I WANT to do dressage and event (*stomps feet and wails*). The 'weight of the reins' contact you describe is pretty much what I do now and yes, it takes ages! I can't 'ask' for more outline or deeper round, I can only get the rest right and hope. It does sort of work as every time he does it nicely he gets lots of praise. He knows what's wanted, but finds it hard (legs are too long and gangly and far away from the brain)

I think you need veterinary Input on whether the head shaking and the extreme reluctance to accept contact are likely to be linked .
I also would not being trying bitless on a horse who was diagnosed as a true head shaker with out advice because of the pressure on the face .

To be honest I'm very skeptical about vets when I comes to subtle behavioural issues like Headshaking. I have discussed it with them before and the best I got was ' try a nose net'. If I can't fix it by elimination and trying different things then I'll have to start throwing money at it

 

[Goldenstar]

I had an...informative? ride this morn. He was very very good with almost no headshaking and managed, without fuss, for a good 30min in a light contact.

There was a couple of factors I'll need to work through:

1) he was let out into the summer paddock pre-tacking up and spent a happy 10mins going round and round (and round and round and round) in a canter gallop. Aggggh, the mess!!! Did it help his loosen off and let off steam? (He lives out 24/7 in a 3acre winter trash paddock so being allowed in used-to-be-until-this-morning smooth summer paddock is exciting and requires much running around) he's been allowed to do so pre-rides before but I've never really thought about if it's affects his faffing.

2) He wore an elasticated bungee. Made of soft shock cord that ran from the breastplate chest ring, through the bit rings and back. It was very loose and only tightened if he either tried picking the pine-cones off the road (sigh) or when he flipped his nose right up. In a normal head position it was loopy. Was it enough to discourage the violent headshake, so he decided to just not bother? He's worn one before and knows that head-flipping causes it to tighten, but only for the extreme headtoss.

3) He went on a route he's never been before. He was VERY distracted looking at everything (not spooky, just interested) and occasionally anxious. Interestingly, when we returned, on the last 10min home, onto a route he knows really well he started to headflip and faff within 30 sec of turning the corner and going ' oh, I know where we are!' ........Possibly the most telling?

4) This is day 8 of insisting on a gentle contact regardless of what fuss he makes. Previously I've given up as a bad job and loafed along on a long rein (or he's injured himself to get out of work). Is he just starting to accept that it's tough and he'll just have to get over it.

5 )He had 2 mint tictacs....... Normally he gets a herbal treat or carrot cube for standing still to be mounted (and a good neck flexing exercise). This time he shared my tictacs. Unlikely but you never know.....




I discuss it with the vet at his next dental. They looked last time and said they wouldn't take them out as standard as they're tiny, well rooted and hard up against the premolars. I poked in his mouth today and the bit sits a good 1" + in front of them.



I've contacted the bitbank, who said I'm to call them (Friday's plan). I'd be interested in someone to come out: anyone know if there's someone who covers central Scotland?



*OFF to google them* They're ....odd?. some are quite uncomfortable looking square shaped? They do a leather covered bit bit only in standard snaffles. I wonder if I could get my ComfortSnaffle covered?



Yes, I've looked into it and there's someone local. BUT they need to be fully clipped (or very short summer coat) so it'll need to wait until he's full moulted. Last time I decided to spend the pennies of physio instead (can't afford ALL the different treatments! )



Thanks. Your right, I can do most thinks in a bitless without a contact but I WANT to do dressage and event (*stomps feet and wails*). The 'weight of the reins' contact you describe is pretty much what I do now and yes, it takes ages! I can't 'ask' for more outline or deeper round, I can only get the rest right and hope. It does sort of work as every time he does it nicely he gets lots of praise. He knows what's wanted, but finds it hard (legs are too long and gangly and far away from the brain)



To be honest I'm very skeptical about vets when I comes to subtle behavioural issues like Headshaking. I have discussed it with them before and the best I got was ' try a nose net'. If I can't fix it by elimination and trying different things then I'll have to start throwing money at it

If you go the veterinary route with the head shaking just go straight to a specialist there will one at the Dick.

 

[Kallibear]

If you go the veterinary route with the head shaking just go straight to a specialist there will one at the Dick.

It's my normal vet anyways. It's who I've talked to about it before and weren't a huge amount of use really ('Try a nose net'.) They will want to do a full work-up on him which will be expensive (most likely not covered by insurance as it's classed as 'behavioural' ). If I can't improve him through other (cheaper! ) means I'd go down that route. But not yet, as I've only just finished paying off his last astronomical vets bill for being patched back together post Gate Jumping (of course it had to be the same leg as last time, the one excluded from his insurance. Typical).

I will however mention it again when he gets his dental

 

[Cobbytype]

Interesting.

How about a really off the wall experiment. How about taking some boiled sweets and melting them in a pan and before they set, dip one his bits in the liquid so that it's liberally coated with the yummy stuff. Allow it to set, then tack him up quickly and ride before there's chance for the bit to be sucked to death.

I just wonder if a nice distraction could get him out the 'habit' (I'm not saying there isn't a root cause of the headshaking, but anything is worth a try). Obviously it's not a long term solution; poor lad will have no teeth left, but it might just make the bit thing a pleasure, rather than something to be dreaded and evaded.

 

[riding_high]

my boy had his wolf teeth removed 18months ago, at least that's what I was told and got proof of sedation for wolf teeth extraction.
4 months ago dentist found the upper left was unerrupted.

My boy started behaving very bad and was obviously in pain so got the vet out to remove the unerruted one, after sedation and a good feel he found that both wolf teeth were still there and feels that either the teeth broke under the gum, roots weren't fully removed and possibly got a bit infected.

Basically it may be worth getting a second opinion under sedation if your horse is a fidget.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

my boy had his wolf teeth removed 18months ago, at least that's what I was told and got proof of sedation for wolf teeth extraction.
4 months ago dentist found the upper left was unerrupted.

My boy started behaving very bad and was obviously in pain so got the vet out to remove the unerruted one, after sedation and a good feel he found that both wolf teeth were still there and feels that either the teeth broke under the gum, roots weren't fully removed and possibly got a bit infected.

Basically it may be worth getting a second opinion under sedation if your horse is a fidget.

ugh what a nightmare.

would def get an EDT second opinion OP, i hope it solves all your problems. I train a fair few people and have seen a lot of wolf tooth issues solved when the vet PROMISED it wasnt teeth but a good edt was able to find them,prove it was the prob,and remove them!