Horse having a nervous breakdown

[ihatework]

As others have said vet is the obvious answer and not just a quick glance.

I have a quite ‘red’ chestnut mare who was no mugs ride but very predictable and safe & genuine for someone competent.

When I bought her back into work after foaling she was different - sharper & more reactive and I felt something was not right but couldn’t put my finger on it. Lots of potential different explanations for the situation but having tried a few different avenues she was a write off 4 months later. Firstly diagnosed grade 4 ulcers but those cleared up in a months gastroguard whilst her behaviour continued to escalate. The poor girl had holes in her Achilles yet never took an obviously lame step - just battled through getting more and more tense

 

[Shoei]

What company does he have, how many horses is he turned out with? How does he work when hacking and schooling with them?

He has 3 other companions, he is the heard leader so doesn't often relax and seems to be on the guard a lot. All 3 are none ridden (retired for various reasons) so they aren't worked with him. He does hack better when we have company but as we are on our own it is difficult at the moment.

 

[Fransurrey]

Thanks for your replies guys... to be honest the vet did very basic checks when she came out. I felt it was a bit of a waste of time. So might try and get them out again as I thought that ulcers would be a possibility.

He is fed Alpha A light, which he has been on for the last 3 years.

I agree with those that suggests underlying physical issue. Ulcers are often secondary to something else, but the dermatitis would be enough of a trigger for the behaviour, too. My sweet itch mare was unmanageable if she had too much grass (and would not tolerate grooming, bathing, life in general...). I've retired her since getting my newest horse, as the changes were as sudden as you describe. I could have an amazing ride, then she'd flip the next day and be scared of her own shadow.

As an aside, I can't feed her alfalfa, as she is very itchy on it, even in winter. It might not be the cause of your issues, but might be worth considering. My mare suffered with hindgut acidosis symptoms quite badly at my last yard. She's on rougher grazing, now and much more chilled.

 

[LaurenBay]

If he has only had basic checks by vet, I would be booking him in for a full lameness work up, even if he doesn't to the eye appear to be lame.

My mare was similar OP, became really dangerous at times, began to attack other Horses and began to rear up in hand, no matter what I tried the behaviour worsened. I spent so much money on calmers, new feed, saddlers etc. Then I went for a full lameness work up and she was found to have very bad arthritis in her hocks. Once medicated she became much more sane and safe! I wish now I had just got the vet as the first point of call, she didn't actually look lame hence why I didn't get a vet out, but it took her throwing us into a ditch for me to realise she could very well be in pain.

 

[flying_high]

it might be a slow process of elimination, or it might be a super quick diagnosis with a good vet it's worth keeping a diary, sure, but my diaries all got thrown away as soon as the work up was done, I could have gone down all kinds of rabbit holes and never reached the conclusion that we did at the hospital in the space of a couple of hours.

milliepops if you don't mind sharing what were the issues and what was the diagnosis. I follow lots of your updates, but missed what happened? Or is there a post somewhere? Thanks

 

[milliepops]

milliepops if you don't mind sharing what were the issues and what was the diagnosis. I follow lots of your updates, but missed what happened? Or is there a post somewhere? Thanks

yeah I did a post but in brief, sweet WB mare alternating between angelic, well progressing work, enjoying hacking etc... and flipping out bucking/bronking/spinning in response to very small stimulus (bird in hedge, say). Couldn't keep her attention. She was set back further by a yard move so I persisted with various things and then was slightly off during routine physio visit which prompted trip to vets. quickly led to a diagnosis of arthritic changes in her neck, basically wobblers. She has had an injury at some point which has laid down a bit of bone now. I was lucky that the x rays shows the injury really clearly so we didn't need any further diagnostics.
Vet did say I could continue to ride her as her deterioration is likely to be very slow but tbh I don't see the point and she's a very happy field potato now.

 

[tallyho!]

Just watched a vid Sue Carson talking about pain expression. Thought I’d put it up https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1046012308834344&_rdr

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I get your point (but not about throwing diaries away) Mine spent 5 days in horse hospital and I was nearly 3k lighter but no answer. I found the answer by doing exactly what I posted. Attention to detail. I am not suggesting vet is left out but I am not sure every similar case is going to get the cure in a couple of hours. This horse has already seen the vet who doesn't seem to have suggested much.

My mare had seen the vet countless times, to absolutely no avail except that we were given Ventipulmin for her cough, which also proved to be caused by a reaction to her feed. These days I prefer to start with the cheap and simple.

 

[paddy555]

My mare had seen the vet countless times, to absolutely no avail except that we were given Ventipulmin for her cough, which also proved to be caused by a reaction to her feed. These days I prefer to start with the cheap and simple.

absolutely plus "common sense".

 

[Pearlsasinger]

absolutely plus "common sense".

If only it were common!

If OP's horse is insured, she will be able to investigate food issues without involving the insurance company or paying a vet bill, which is one reason why I would go down that route first. Another reason is that the horse is almost bound to be tense in various parts of its body, so the diagnostics could run into hundreds if not thousands of £££, when a change of diet and some time could sort out all the problems, as the horse gets whatever it is reacting to completely out of its system and relaxes again.

This is not to say that the horse's problems are definitely food related, they might have a different cause but I would start by looking at food/supplements/treats (if any).

 

[milliepops]

PAS over what period would you recomment the OP tries different feeds? Just curious since you've suggested this on a few posts where I would personally have felt enough time had passed and the vet was the clear next step. As OP has said the alfalfa has been fed with apparently no issues for 3 years, how long would you persist with an alternative before deciding that it wasn't a feed related issue?

 

[Orangehorse]

Go onto simplest diet possible. Bowen treatment is for muscle problems which could pinpoint sore areas. Totally agree about investigating ulcers.

Already suggested, but horses sometimes get brain tumours, very hard to diagnose.

 

[Melody Grey]

In no particular order and may already have been covered above;

Ulcers/ hind gut ulcers/ imbalance of gut bacteria/ mineral deficiency (specifically Mg+)/ vitamin E deficiency/ alfalfa or cereal intolerance/ visual impairment

...in addition to usual saddle, teeth, physio checks...

 

[9tails]

You say he's on Alpha A lite, but you also mention a supplement. What is the supplement?

 

[Shoei]

You say he's on Alpha A lite, but you also mention a supplement. What is the supplement?

It's the Hack Up Bespoke calmer I was referring to. He's previously been on the Dengie Performance Vit and Mins but I took him off this whilst I trial the HackUp as I wasn't sure if it would impact.

Something than may also be worth mentioning is he is on good quality, old grazing. So not newly sewn or cattle grazing.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

PAS over what period would you recomment the OP tries different feeds? Just curious since you've suggested this on a few posts where I would personally have felt enough time had passed and the vet was the clear next step. As OP has said the alfalfa has been fed with apparently no issues for 3 years, how long would you persist with an alternative before deciding that it wasn't a feed related issue?

I wouldn't suggest trying different feeds. My suggestion is to remove alfalfa from the diet, whether it is just in the chaff or in the chaff and supplements. If this were my horse (and I have done it), I would stop feeding anything except grass for three weeks at the most, expecting to begin to see a change in the behaviour if the alfalfa is the cause by the end of the first week.
The process is about finding out what the cause of the behaviour is, not about finding a different feed, which can be worked on later.

 

[DD]

I wouldn't suggest trying different feeds. My suggestion is to remove alfalfa from the diet, whether it is just in the chaff or in the chaff and supplements. If this were my horse (and I have done it), I would stop feeding anything except grass for three weeks at the most, expecting to begin to see a change in the behaviour if the alfalfa is the cause by the end of the first week.
The process is about finding out what the cause of the behaviour is, not about finding a different feed, which can be worked on later.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this

 

[Pearlsasinger]

PAS over what period would you recomment the OP tries different feeds? Just curious since you've suggested this on a few posts where I would personally have felt enough time had passed and the vet was the clear next step. As OP has said the alfalfa has been fed with apparently no issues for 3 years, how long would you persist with an alternative before deciding that it wasn't a feed related issue?

Just to clarify, if an animal is allergic to a substance, there will be an almost immediate reaction, of greater or lesser severity. However it it has an intolerance, this will build up over a period of time, maybe years, with the reaction becoming more severe to a smaller and smaller amount. I had owned the mare I wrote about for 8 years by the time we found the cause of her problem, she had seen the vet multiple times. Looking back, I should have taken more note of small things over those 8 years but they didn't appear to be related to each other or to anything else.

By the time we stopped the feed, she was very noise reactive - that had built up gradually, she got 'heat lumps' under the saddle, she took notice of things in the sky - aeroplanes, hot air balloons and clouds that the other 3 didn't bother about and she had become very difficult to lead into the stable at teatime but was fine going out in the morning. She also had a persistent cough, she had poor temperature regulation and was very sensitive to being touched, rain drops drove her mad - we used to laugh about 'tickly rain'.

Would any of that have led you to suspect her feed? I certainly didn't and neither did a number of very good vets but everything was resolved by stopping the feed.

 

[Highflinger]

Mine was very very spooky . Totally over reacted to everyday things and felt most days I was sitting on an unexploded bomb when riding. Would do random spooks at nothing - hacking and even in the field grazing. He is out full time and fed nothing. I tried pure magnesium - level tablespoon per day - didn't think it would work but completely different horse within a week. Calm , relaxed and a pleasure to hack. Missed 3 days and he reverted to spooky.
Worth a try. Good luck

 

[exracehorse]

My TB suffered a horrific accident a month after purchase. Recovered and was a super star. Then he begun to show odd behaviour issues. Thought he was being naughty. But when he had an episode they got closer together and more dangerous. After an awful hack out solo when he met another horse and flipped out because he wasn’t allowed to follow them, I retired him. However, he wasn’t happy. Even as a field ornament. Little things set him off. For instance rain on his body if he wasn’t wearing a rug. A food bowl where it shouldn’t be in the field. The list was endless. The vet couldn’t find anything medically wrong other than bone spavins and slipping stifle. I spent a fortune on ulcer treatment, I was low score. Calmers. Special diets. I tried to ride him after a good year of retirement in the schooling ring with an experienced instructor. But, he showed the same odd behaviour .... would suddenly slam the brakes on and refuse to move. Only go backwards or up. Showed almost colic symptoms and then tried to lie down. I called it a day. And had him Pts. Because he was shot, I don’t know if it was a brain tumour but I suspect it.

 

[flying_high]

PAS over what period would you recomment the OP tries different feeds? Just curious since you've suggested this on a few posts where I would personally have felt enough time had passed and the vet was the clear next step. As OP has said the alfalfa has been fed with apparently no issues for 3 years, how long would you persist with an alternative before deciding that it wasn't a feed related issue?

It’s difficult. Knowing what is cause and effect and what is primary and secondary.

My current horse had bruised pedal bones, two sets of grade three ulcers (squamous and glandular) and a left hind foot soft tissue field injury within 4 months of purchase. Got these resolved, I then had ups and downs with way of going, back muscle and saddles!

Looked into grass affected / ppsm/ EPSM / muscle issues etc lots of rehab work, lots of bodywork etc

Eventually (now not insured) went back to vet hospital, bone scanned body (to check nothing else lurking), lameness work up, back X-rayed.

Only mild impinging spines showed up. BUT with 3 vertebrae blocked in back like a different horse to ride. Lots of way of moving rehab (which now works post injections and hoping not to repeat injections).

Back injected December and making steady progress (with some saddle and rider surgery hiccups).

Would I have been able to unpick faster? Dunno. We went to vet hospital for the left hind soft tissue 9 months earlier and spine wasn’t picked up then. I don’t think there is any one size fits all for the nightmare of horse Not quite right!

 

[milliepops]

I don’t think there is any one size fits all for the nightmare of horse Not quite right!

no not at all. And as an owner i guess it's normal to comb over things and wonder if you could have done it differently.
I had 2 experienced physios, regular "quick checks" by the vets at times of routine care (teeth/jabs etc) and my husband is a farrier and still I pissed about with restarting training and cutting out feeds etc because nothing was glaringly obvious, when actually what was needed was x rays. everyone said she just needed time and work. easy with hindsight

I have been involved with another NQR horse (not mine this time) that had similar difficulty focussing and random behaviour that eventually I was able to push for a work up and it had the PSD/Spavins/SI trio, again having played around with feeds and physio and all the rest for what felt like an age. These iffy horses play on my mind and I hope I have learned to head to horspital faster from now on when something just *feels* wrong because I feel like they were failed a bit. even if people say that if you look closely enough at a horse you will find something wrong with it.... I personally would rather know about that finding, rather than have the horse be a stoic and never tell me that there was a problem. My current competition horse is now on a 6 monthly check up just to check we aren't missing anything hiding in the wings. So far so good.

May as well just pay my salary straight to the vets really

 

[Pearlsasinger]

no not at all. And as an owner i guess it's normal to comb over things and wonder if you could have done it differently.
I had 2 experienced physios, regular "quick checks" by the vets at times of routine care (teeth/jabs etc) and my husband is a farrier and still I pissed about with restarting training and cutting out feeds etc because nothing was glaringly obvious, when actually what was needed was x rays. everyone said she just needed time and work. easy with hindsight

I have been involved with another NQR horse (not mine this time) that had similar difficulty focussing and random behaviour that eventually I was able to push for a work up and it had the PSD/Spavins/SI trio, again having played around with feeds and physio and all the rest for what felt like an age. These iffy horses play on my mind and I hope I have learned to head to horspital faster from now on when something just *feels* wrong because I feel like they were failed a bit. even if people say that if you look closely enough at a horse you will find something wrong with it.... I personally would rather know about that finding, rather than have the horse be a stoic and never tell me that there was a problem. My current competition horse is now on a 6 monthly check up just to check we aren't missing anything hiding in the wings. So far so good.

May as well just pay my salary straight to the vets really

I'm sure that they weren't failed! As you say hindsight is a wonderful thing. The reason that I always talk about cutting out feed first is that I wish that I had done that first for my mare, without bothering the vet. It's quick, easy and cheap! There have been several things that different horses have been intolerant of, including, seaweed, Brewer's yeast, PinkPowder, alfalfa, carrots as well as the one who couldn't tolerate cereals or sugar.

Over the years I have decided that everything that I have learned from every horse I have owned/known goes to help every other horse I own. The feed problem has also helped several people, including myself, who have various food intolerances.

 

[ester]

I think it depends how long things are going on for and I think everyone needs to have a timeline in their head of how long you will give it to see if something simple makes a difference, otherwise it risks becoming a welfare issue.

It stood out to me how anxious you say he is also OP, that can make things a bit circular because anxiety= tense muscles, shallow breathing etc which can easily contribute to pain being worsened. That's a bit story of my life ATM see.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think it depends how long things are going on for and I think everyone needs to have a timeline in their head of how long you will give it to see if something simple makes a difference, otherwise it risks becoming a welfare issue.

It stood out to me how anxious you say he is also OP, that can make things a bit circular because anxiety= tense muscles, shallow breathing etc which can easily contribute to pain being worsened. That's a bit story of my life ATM see.

And that can throw the vet somewhat off track!

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’m still gradually unravelling my mare’s issues. She has a fair few that are already diagnosed and being medicated/treated - PSSM, bilateral hock arthritis and PPID.

The chiro vet says she is also tight and sore in her SI region, which is probably not surprising considering everything else. So today she has had both sides of her SI joint medicated (by her regular vet). Hopefully one day we will get all her various wonky bits working well in conjunction with each other!

 

[Shoei]

I just thought I would give everyone an update and thank everyone for their advice.
Following the advice on this thread I took Chester off all feed and calmer, figuring it was something I could do immediately whilst waiting for the vet clinic I was planning to take him to. First i took him of the Alpha A and put him on grass chaff with his Hack Up calmer. After 8 days there wasn't really any improvement so I took him off everything. In hindsight I probably was too quick as alpha takes a while to get out of the system.
I also enrolled in Tristian Tuckers training program and started working with that method immediately. 2 days after taking him off all feed/ 10 days after removing the Alpha A I had a completely relaxed horse. It is like a switch had gone in him!

He has continued to be calm and relaxed and the TRT method is definitely impacting on his behaviour, making him much more confident.

Today for the 1st time in over two months we have been and ridden in my neighbor's school. He has much more to contend with their than at home and had a complete meltdown last time. I walked him up the lane,through the farm yard and past the neighbor's dog that launched itself at the gate. He remained relaxed all the way. He has then done some lovely work in the arena.

Fingers crossed and everyone grab wood because I'm hoping we are getting back to normal!

Many thanks again for everyone's advice. I'm not sure where we would be without it.

 

[ycbm]

Great to read your update. Isn't the alfalfa switch weird? I didn't believe it until I had one myself.


.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Please check eyes! My mare did this prior to me owning her and she was going blind. Eyes often get forgotten

Same here!

 

[Highflinger]

Great news - I shall look up the TRT method