Horse not right but no lameness

[Lizzynelson]

Hey all! I have a horse that is not lame but refusing to go forward both on the lunge and with rider. He has had a full work up with nerve blocks and gait analysis and no lameness picked up. We did x-ray the hocks and has arthritic changes in left hock, however would have expected if this was causing a problem for there to be some lameness?? We have recently done a Bute trial with a significant amount of Bute and it made no difference?? Can some pain or issues not be helped with Bute, I feel like I don't know where to go from here

 

[be positive]

Some things are not helped by bute, a bit of background may help, age, type, how long have you had him and is this new behaviour?

PSSM would be the first thing I consider now with anything not wanting to go forward even if it has previously, it can build up and this time of year when they may have been in more than normal would be the right time for the horse to really show it is having issues.

 

[ForeverBroke_]

Sorry - not sure if it's included in the full work up, but did they scope for ulcers?

 

[Lizzynelson]

Some things are not helped by bute, a bit of background may help, age, type, how long have you had him and is this new behaviour?

PSSM would be the first thing I consider now with anything not wanting to go forward even if it has previously, it can build up and this time of year when they may have been in more than normal would be the right time for the horse to really show it is having issues.

He's a 16'2 gelding, it has been going on for two years as vet have been unable to get to the bottom of it.

He had bloods done for the above and they all came back in normal range.

 

[Lizzynelson]

Sorry - not sure if it's included in the full work up, but did they scope for ulcers?

Hey, yes they did scope for ulcers which came back clear...

 

[ester]

scintigraphy?

 

[be positive]

He's a 16'2 gelding, it has been going on for two years as vet have been unable to get to the bottom of it.

He had bloods done for the above and they all came back in normal range.

I think bloods may not give the full picture in mild PSSM cases so I would treat him as if he has it and see if he improves, one here was similar and within days of having vit e the difference was obvious, she continued to improve over the following months so we kept her on it, I think the symptoms can be very subtle, vary from horse to horse, it is easy enough to change the diet to see if it helps, even if it is not a diagnosis as such it is a diet that will do no harm.

 

[Lizzynelson]

scintigraphy?

I am thinking this is my only option left but now insurance used will be coming out of my own pocket ?. Either that or retire

 

[Lizzynelson]

I think bloods may not give the full picture in mild PSSM cases so I would treat him as if he has it and see if he improves, one here was similar and within days of having vit e the difference was obvious, she continued to improve over the following months so we kept her on it, I think the symptoms can be very subtle, vary from horse to horse, it is easy enough to change the diet to see if it helps, even if it is not a diagnosis as such it is a diet that will do no harm.

Thanks for the info! What kind of diet does a pssm horse need to be fed?

 

[be positive]

I am no expert, others on here are dealing with more difficult ones, ours just had a low sugar/ starch diet which she was on anyway, very good doer so only on a token of unmolassed chaff and a tiny amount of soaked grassnuts to carry the supplement, daily turnout again she was turned out daily before, the one management change we made was to exercise every day, some days twice, she was having two days off most weeks before, adding Equimins vit e oil was the only real diet change and the one that made the obvious difference.

 

[SEL]

Thanks for the info! What kind of diet does a pssm horse need to be fed?

What breed is your horse? I'm going to assume a type 2 PSSM horse if nothing obvious came up in the bloods. Did you get a copy of them from your vet? I have learnt to get them emailed to me because things get missed in phone calls

- low starch / sugar (<10%)
- you might want to restrict grazing for a while just to see whether that is a trigger
- for energy look to oil. Copra, linseed or just veg oil. If not in work, then that's less of an issue if weight is OK
- natural vitamin E. You can't buy this in most shops and online is best. Forage Plus, Progressive earth and Equimins all sell it. I'd start at 10,000iU and see how he goes. Vitamin E deficiency can present like muscle issues
- most horses with PSSM type 2 seem to need higher protein levels. Progressive earth have started doing a Tri Amino supplement which includes the 3 amino acids essential to horses and which their bodies cannot make themselves.
- magnesium oxide is also useful in a lot of cases
- any idea if your soil is low in selenium? Your vet might be able to test your horse for selenium deficiency - that can also present like a myopathy

Turnout as much as possible.

Unfortunately there isn't one size fits all with diets and PSSM. The main advantage of following the diet is its pretty healthy for any horse even if it turns out a myopathy is not the issue.

Bute makes zero difference to my PSSM mare when she's having an episode.

 

[SpringArising]

@SEL Any ideas why the 'horse' stuff is SO much more expensive compared to the stuff marketed at humans? £100 for a litre is extortionate!

 

[ycbm]

@SEL Any ideas why the 'horse' stuff is SO much more expensive compared to the stuff marketed at humans? £100 for a litre is extortionate!

The human stuff is mostly synthetic and you need to feed twice as much to get the same result.

It doesnt look so cheap when you know that

I don't disagree with anything written above, but after my recent experiences with my TB I would, depending on what you feed, consider an exclusion diet to test food intolerance.

I had a horse who was behaving badly, fizzy, bucking into canter, working upside down, head tossing. Vet and trainer said it was behavioural. Almost by accident I took him off TopSpec conditioning cubes and discovered he is soya intolerant. The initial behaviour change was startling, and over two months (as the all over inflammation it gave him died down) every last suggestion that he has anything wrong with him, behavioural or physical, has disappeared.

.

 

[SpringArising]

The human stuff is mostly synthetic and you need to feed twice as much to get the same result.

It doesnt look so cheap when you know that

Ha! Makes sense. Thanks. I've ordered some Gold Label Vit E 1000 from Viovet. However I imagine based on the price (10.99 for 1kg) it's not the best despite being described as high potency.

 

[Aoife 2020]

Is he overweight most overweight horses get very lazy . Did get your saddle check to make sure it fits correctly . If the vet can’t find any problem I say it’s training issues or some horses just change with age .

 

[ycbm]

Ha! Makes sense. Thanks. I've ordered some Gold Label Vit E 1000 from Viovet. However I imagine based on the price (10.99 for 1kg) it's not the best despite being described as high potency.

Sorry, but you cant use that to provide high levels of vitamin E because it's got selenium in it and selenium is very, very toxic if you overdose, and an overdose isn't much.

You need vitamin E alone, and not all are the same, some have fillers in them and weigh a lot more per 1000 iu, so are more expensive than they first appear.

It's also synthetic so you need twice as much. You would need to feed 44 grams of that just to give 1000 iu that is active in the horse, and you need at least five times that for PSSM. Your whole kilo is only 2 to 4 days dose (which would give him selenium poisoning and his feet might drop off).

The cheapest way to feed vitamin E is the Equimins oil (by quite a margin), followed by Forageplus powder.

If you are feeding for PSSM then you need to test at least 5,000iu a day, preferably twice that to start.


.

 

[SEL]

Ha! Makes sense. Thanks. I've ordered some Gold Label Vit E 1000 from Viovet. However I imagine based on the price (10.99 for 1kg) it's not the best despite being described as high potency.

Its usually about £30 for 0.5kg if you get the natural source vitamin E

Worth saying following YCBM's post above that I have a horse who cannot have alfallfa, linseed or soya so I keep her diet extremely basic and if she accidentally gets linseed (her stable mate has it) she goes completely bleugh for about 48 hours. It took me pretty much the whole of 2016 to work out she was intolerant to it.

 

[SpringArising]

Sorry, but you cant use that to provide high levels of vitamin E because it's got selenium in it and selenium is very, very toxic if you overdose, and an overdose isn't much.

You need vitamin E alone, and not all are the same, some have fillers in them and weigh a lot more per 1000 iu, so are more expensive than they first appear.

It's also synthetic so you need twice as much. You would need to feed 44 grams of that just to give 1000 iu that is active in the horse, and you need at least five times that for PSSM. Your whole kilo is only 2 to 4 days dose (which would give him selenium poisoning and his feet might drop off).

The cheapest way to feed vitamin E is the Equimins oil (by quite a margin), followed by Forageplus powder.

If you are feeding for PSSM then you need to test at least 5,000iu a day, preferably twice that to start.


.

Thanks YCBM. Up until today I'd never thought of feeding Vit E so still trying to learn what's what. I should say I'm not treating for PSSM (yet - few things I'm thinking as a possibility and this is one of them) so wouldn't be looking to feed high quantities right now, just a base dose before I get round to testing him. The info about selenium is extremely useful!

ETA - cancelled the order and have bought a pure Vit E sup instead.

 

[ycbm]

Excellent!

You also need to know that the UK gene hair test is for type 1 only and there is at least one other type and reckoned to be more. So if he tests negative on the gene test, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have it.
.

 

[SpringArising]

Excellent!

You also need to know that the UK gene hair test is for type 1 only and there is at least one other type and reckoned to be more. So if he tests negative on the gene test, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have it.
.

Thank you, I did already know that which I why I figure I may as well treat him like he does regardless of whether or not I test (realise that sounds contradictory to last post, just mean I won't be giving him PSSM level doses until I chat with vet).

 

[shergar]

Hey all! I have a horse that is not lame but refusing to go forward both on the lunge and with rider. He has had a full work up with nerve blocks and gait analysis and no lameness picked up. We did x-ray the hocks and has arthritic changes in left hock, however would have expected if this was causing a problem for there to be some lameness?? We have recently done a Bute trial with a significant amount of Bute and it made no difference?? Can some pain or issues not be helped with Bute, I feel like I don't know where to go from here

 

[shergar]

Has your horse had his sheath cleaned ,Facebook has a page called EQUINE HYGEINE a bean can be uncomfortable and make a horse reluctant to go forward .