Horse on Trial very Aggressive with Other Horses....Deal Breaker?

Chavhorse

Chavhorse

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I would welcome your feedback on the following;

I have had Diva on trial now for 5 weeks. During her second week with us she was introduced to one of the other geldings which went well in the fact they just ignored each other, when another horse was turned out with them she was very very aggressive with it to the extent of me having to go in and intervene (as soon as I went in she stopped and came over to me) unfortunately she had chased this poor lad round to the extent that either she had kicked him on the stifle or he had kicked himself and developed one hell of a swelling, vet was called and with steroids and cold hosing the swelling came down with no further problems over a couple of days.

She was then slowly introduced to another mare on the yard and they have been quietly sharing a paddock for the last 3 weeks, today we went to feed to find the other mare with a totally ripped rug, sweated up to hell, with large bite marks on her back and shoulders 3 hoof prints on one buttock and thigh and 2 on the other one. She is very swollen, lame and we had to have the vet out as the mare was so stressed we were concerned about colic. My horse was cool as s cucumber with no marks on her at all.

Obviously now all the other liveries on the yard are not happy about Diva being turned out with their horses (and I can not blame them at all) and she will now be placed in her own paddock between the others so she can see other horses but not interact with them.

When we initially viewed her we asked how she was with other horses and were told that she was a typical mare and liked to b e left alone, when we saw her turned out with the mares she was with it appeared to me that although all turned out together they all appeared to be in their own little bubbles (if that makes sense) I.e. they were tolerating each other but that was about it.

My trial with her is ending in 3 weeks time and I am in a bit of a dilemma to be honest as in the space of 5 weeks she has injured two horses to the extent that we have needed vet visits (I have offered to pay the excess on both of the insurance claims and will buy a new rug for today’s victim). When she is in attack mode she is relentless she really keeps on and on chasing down and attacking, it is not a case of kick or bite and when the other horse moves away she leaves it be she just keeps on and on and on until you have to go in and intervene.

She is a total peach with people and her ridden work is lovely .

Would the aggression and the need to be turned out alone be a deal breaker for you? My heart is saying “ I like her a lot” but my gut is saying “hell do I need this level of hassle” today has been sheer hell and I never ever want to see another of my yard friends that upset or worried again over something my horse has done.

Any thoughts welcome
 
Is she happy on her own in her field, if yes and she's right in every other way for you I would still have her. More and more livery yards are going towards solo turnout:)
 
If you had or are likely to have in the reasonably near future, your own place with land for her, then I would go for her.

If you don't, then it does sound as though it will be tricky and potentially expensive to keep her, unless you can find a yard where all the horses are in individual paddocks as a norm (otherwise YO may get fed up with the special paddock and try and abolish it or charge you more for it).

I have a gelding who worked his way through every one of the livery horses. They tended to come in with large hoof brands on them on a rather regular basis. He would appear to be fine with them until they didnt move off as quickly as he wanted or he saw them out of the corner of his eye in a corner where he could trap them..... Luckily I now have him at home and have another horse so they are fine being next door but not in the same field.

I would say that he is much happier without another horse in the same field but would get very upset if there wasnt one next door. He just likes to protect his space (riggy I guess).
 
For me it wouldn't be a dealbreaker no, but I would be extremely careful about who she gets turned out with. It sounds as though you have had a difficult time today so I wouldn't make any definite decisions yet. I guess you introduced her to the others by placing her in a paddock next door and gave them time to get to know one another over the fence? I don't think its unusual for fights to happen when a new horse arrives at a yard and your horse is still probably more defensive and nervous at the moment having just moved in.
Also could she be in season, that wouldn't help while she is settling in.

I would ask the previous owners more questions about it and if you can ask the other owners at her previous yard what they know about her. If she's good in all other respects and you like her I wouldn't give up on her just yet, hope it works out for you.
 
Keeping them on their own is no big deal if they are next to other horses. My old mare actually prefers to be on her own, yet is happier in the barn where she can see other horses very easily. She also gets very attached but wants that fence in between. My young gelding has been also working his way through other horses. He is just too big and plays too hard so is now on his own, but again with horses next door. I think that Billy might grow into not being a pain when older but it would seem with old age (my mare is 22) she just prefers her own space. Our yard only turns out in 2 max 3 anyway for part liveries so its not a problem for us.
 
Chavhorse said:
When we initially viewed her we asked how she was with other horses and were told that she was a typical mare and liked to b e left alone
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This would tell me that she is not the best in company. Some mares are titchy when coming into season but she really should be fine with others.

I'd talk to your YO about her being permenantly alone - if your yard owner is totally happy about you having an individual field then go for it and buy her. If the yard owner is hesitant then I really think you need to return her. A bully horse is always difficult to find shared grazing for.
 
Our TB was exactly like this and I honestly believe he would have done something fatal eventually - it was like he was in a rage. He would be fine for days or even weeks then - wham! he went for another horse and just would not stop. He was kept in individual turnout but with others over the fence. Even one strand of electric was enough - he just liked his own space. We never found what his "trigger" was but could not risk another horse with him. We even refused to turn our other one out with him so we could not aks anyone else. We were always very honest about him and it was not a problem as we always chose yards with individual turnout. He was certainly never unhappy or lonely.
 
If she is right for you in every other way and you can keep her in an individual paddock then I'd keep her. I wasn't too happy about individual paddocks when I moved to my current yard but I've found my horses settled well as long as they could see others and now I wouldn't go back with all the problems of kicks, bullying, ripped rugs etc. (not to mention the squabbles over poo picking!).
 
Oh bummer:( What an absolute pain, I am sorry to read this. Does it alter how you feel about her?

5 weeks is long enough really for her to have got used to things on the yard and I don't think the time factor can be used as a reason for her antagonism sadly. There could be so many reasons for it of course, but if you have always to be tippy-toeing around with her then it simply isn't worth it.

What is she like when she is ridden in company? That would be another factor, it's so not what you want if you have to be ultra aware of what other people are up to when you are with them.

My take on it is that if she ticked all your other boxes and you can keep her in an individual paddock then yes she'd stay.

If individual quarters was an issue then, No, sadly, she'd be going back.

I have a socking great lump of a horse here that is very riggy (been tested, he isn't) he won't tolerate other geldings in with him, and even his owner won't turn her own mare out with him, he's a big sook to handle and such a character. He has an individual paddock, and he is happy in his own space, so that's how we deal with him.
 
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Enfys said:
Oh bummer:( What an absolute pain, I am sorry to read this. Does it alter how you feel about her?

5 weeks is long enough really for her to have got used to things on the yard and I don't think the time factor can be used as a reason for her antagonism sadly. There could be so many reasons for it of course, but if you have always to be tippy-toeing around with her then it simply isn't worth it.

What is she like when she is ridden in company? That would be another factor, it's so not what you want if you have to be ultra aware of what other people are up to when you are with them.

My take on it is that if she ticked all your other boxes and you can keep her in an individual paddock then yes she'd stay.

If individual quarters was an issue then, No, sadly, she'd be going back.
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I like how she is with me, hate how she made me feel this morning when I saw my friend shaking and in tears at the state of her mare.

She is a pain when ridden in company as well! not attacking (thank god!) I was schooling her yesterday with another horse in the arena and every time we got close it was ears back and Ugli face which will make showing her a real pain in the backside even if individual goes well she will be marked down for making Ugli faces in the line up:-)

It is manageable a sharp "oi" and a change of direction stops it but you do have to be uber aware.

Individual turnout is fine for now as we have the facilities but I can't help thinking it will be a PITA if we ever want to move.

I suppose my gut is saying this is supposed to be R&R not a whole load of hassle.

Bum!
 
That last bit about her being stroppy with other horses even when ridden would for me be the tipping point - lets face it we can all cope with horrid henrys in the field if they are angels when ridden, or horrid henrys with certain aspects of being ridden if they are lovely characters in the stable and to be around.

But to be a pain in major respect in both areas? no........
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
That last bit about her being stroppy with other horses even when ridden would for me be the tipping point - lets face it we can all cope with horrid henrys in the field if they are angels when ridden, or horrid henrys with certain aspects of being ridden if they are lovely characters in the stable and to be around.

But to be a pain in major respect in both areas? no........
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Yep I know

I keep thinking of the following saying;

"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't"
 
its just trying to find its place in the pecking order and at the same time tell the other horses it is not going to get beaten up, give it a chance to fit in, it will settle
 
From the timing of the incidents I would guess she is evil when either coming in - or going out - of season. But the fact she has been evil with both geldings and mares would worry me. Has she been ok BETWEEN the attacks??

If she's uber-aggressive at ALL times then I would suspect something up with her hormones - possibly a GTC tumour on the ovary (which is a nice big vet bill and 8 weeks off work!) But if it's her 'normal' behaviour when in season then you have a monthly bill for Regumate to contemplate. If it's not a deal-breaker, it sure is reason to negotiate the price down!!
 
JanetGeorge said:
From the timing of the incidents I would guess she is evil when either coming in - or going out - of season. But the fact she has been evil with both geldings and mares would worry me. Has she been ok BETWEEN the attacks??
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She has been fine with the other mare for the past three weeks now so this fits.

The thing that really worries me is that she is relentless, it really is not just a case of a quick bite or well aimed hoof then when the other horse backs off leaving it alone, she will not leave it alone, the gelding is only a three year old and he even resorted to making the open and closed mouth body language of "I'm a baby please do not hurt me" and still she flew after him mouth open until I waded in.

I suppose regumate would be an option but my gut is very much saying two horses injured within 3 weeks of each other, the fact that all the other liveries are now refusing to turn their horses out with her (quite rightly by the way) and the thought of having to have a full hormone work up done to ascertain what is wrong is not exactly tipping the scales in her favor, which is a shame as she really is a sweetheart with people and rides beautifully as long as she is in the school on her own!

I tell you she really is underscoring why I dislike mares and have only owned Geldings for the past 20 years!

Beeswax - the only way she would stay is on individual turnout I have already paid out 2 x excess payments on vet bills and 1 totally trashed rug plus I will not see another livery in such distress at the state of their horse as my friend today so if she stays she will be in individual TO from now on.
 
Im afraid she would be going back if she were with me, we had one like this, sadly we bought him before we knew what he was like & he attacked my other gelding & fractured his pelvis...& that was without shoes on, god knows what would have happened if he had had them on. I wouldnt risk it, even if you can keep her separately at the moment what if at some point in the future your circumstances change & this isnt possible? You may well end up with a permanently stabled horse.
 
navaho said:
Im afraid she would be going back if she were with me, we had one like this, sadly we bought him before we knew what he was like & he attacked my other gelding & fractured his pelvis...& that was without shoes on, god knows what would have happened if he had had them on. I wouldnt risk it, even if you can keep her separately at the moment what if at some point in the future your circumstances change & this isnt possible? You may well end up with a permanently stabled horse.
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Navaho - this is my very real fear that my situation may change and I no longer have the option of individual turnout.

Much thinking to do and a for and against list me thinks:-)
 
I tell you she really is underscoring why I dislike mares and have only owned Geldings for the past 20 years!
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I am a huge fan of mares, I promise you that this is not typical mare behaviour.

If I had her on trial, I would send her back and not go ahead with the purchase. :(
 
All my mares are very calm however i have a gelding who was a horror when i got him.

He broke fences injured one of my other geldings and was very riggy he isnt one, he did the relentless chasing thing if a horse ran away from him.
He has settled but i had to put him in a big field with 5 others one of them bossy.

He has now learned how to make friends with other horses and my others will scratch him and go near him they wouldnt at first, he takes a long time to get used to new horses and has to wear a red ribbon when out as is threatned by horse too close he doesnt know.

He had a weird upbringing that made him this way and he just didnt know how to behave and was threatned by new horses although he is vastly improved it has taken nerves of steel alot of patience,and we have our own place and it was only our horses he went out with.

I am sure if he was moved he would initially be a bit agressive and would take time to settle, a busy yard or really small paddocks would not suit him until he got to know new horses.

What was this mares set up where you got her from, has she been in that herd a long time and i guess the most important question is how understanding are the people on your yard.

Also horses like this are more likely to cost you money in the long run small injuries even on themselves from reactive behaviour, it depends how much you like the horse if you think she may improve and you have to consider what would happen if you had to sell on.
After reading all that back i dont suppose i was much help sorry.:o
 
Personally i couldnt be bothered with a horse like that. And i suspect this is how my horse broke his jaw - he was in the field with a mare the yo had been warned about. Lot of heartache and money. No way imo would i have a horse like that. Best of luck to you x
 
I think horses who haven't been properly socialised can be like this, it takes them time and a nastier horse to bring them down a peg or two.

My gelding fought for two weeks with my friends mare who had always been boss mare when I got him, and got her under - at 4 years old. I believe this is because he was with much younger horses and had always beaten them.

We had one racehorse many years ago who was a Strong Gale mare who could not be put out with other horses because she was truly evil to them. Whilst at a yard on R and R, a rescue shetland mare got under the electric tape - and then proceeded to sort her out. The big black racehorse then became completely besotted with the small shetland, and they were best friends!!!

Depends how much you like the mare. Always easier if they are easy, but in my experience it isn't always like that.
 
I have no problem with keeping her on individual turnout however my real concern is what if my situation changes especially as we are intending to move back to to the UK in a couple of years time I can see having to always find individual TO may well prove to be a PITA, also what if we ever need to sell her? I would have to be honest and not everyone may be happy to take on an anti social madam!

I also have an inkling that we may be dealing with something hormonal here, so I would have the investigation costs and also whatever medication she needs.

So far in the last month she will have cost me 2 x 100 euro excess payments (for the vet bills for the injured parties both fully insured thank god!) and 75 euro's for the totally trashed turn out rug today....on the bright side at least the other horse was not wearing its smartex!

Why is it never easy!
 
Oh hunny. What a pile of poops :(

I think, reading between the lines, that you've made your decision, but it's a hard one to accept.

Dizzy has always been uber loving when in season, but this time she is different - ears back, girthy, etc. and I really don't like it :(. Luckily she's behaving reasonably well in the field and hasn't actually gone for me, but my stress levels are up :(. I've had her for nearly three years and she's never been like this with regards to her seasons (normally she gvies cuddles with her neck!). She'll be investigated.

I wouldn't want the added stress of taking on a horse that I can't take in a school with others without stressing, or leave near other horses (I'm guessing here that leaving her tied up near others would not be a good plan).
 
I have to say i would actually give it more tim. We had a welsh cob who was like this, it was terrifying as we had never experienced behaviour like his. It too AGES to introduce any new horse but, once the herd was established then all was hunky dory - yes he was still the boss but the herd structure was sorted.

I now have a pony who is similar (we think/thought he was a rig). However, he is not as relentless as the previous horse who would chase a horse on a circle (trapping the new horse on the inside of the circle) and he'd keep this up until the horse was exhausted basically (or until we stepped in with a lunge whip and rescued them!).

from this we have just learnt to take a heck of a lot of time to introduce any newbies. Ok, so it's not normally usual for the 'new' horse to act like this but, if they are dominant anyway then it doesn't surprise me. We have had my pony 17 years now and he's fine now in his established herd and is top dog. My horse is 2nd in command and he too is a thug although if meeting a strange horse out/in school he's fine (pony isn't, he gets very uptight).

Recently (since last week) the herd dynamic of our lot has been a bit disrupted and the pony (for one reason or another) has decided he hates my horse (they've been together 16 years!) he is protecting the rest of his pals from my horse and is being a nasty little bugger again - it's most bizarre. I think some horses are just prone to this sort of behaviour. It took 5 weeks to settle my new youngster in last year and then he still was attacked by my horse!

I think what you need to do is just take a lot of time if you want to pursue a relationship with this horse. Don't swap and change the horses she is kept with, if she gets on ok with one, stick with that one being with her. They do need to have a fair bit of space though - my pony has issues with his 'personal space' and lets the others know in no uncertain terms when he's having one of his 'moments'. The change has probably upset her and, frommy experience horses like this do take a loong time to settle.

I guess it's up to you if you continue or not and whether you can deal with it. Maybe quiz the owners a little bit more about how they managed her - was she ever kept with others?
 
She was kept with 3 other mares in her previous home. Strange thing was when we went to view her they were all out together but stayed totally separate like they tolerated being in the same field but did not actually enjoy it. Watched them for 20 mins and no interaction at all.

Lady 25 - I totally get what you are saying about give her more time but I am obviously feeling a bit if time pressure as in 3 weeks I either have to send her back or stump up the readies. Plus I now feel like the yard black sheep and my horse is the very much the yard monster!

Mrs M - No not made my mind up at all but gut is defiantly saying sweet as she is having to constantly be aware of where other horses are on the yard, in the school and outside on hacks is not quite the R&R I was wanting....after all the trials and tribulations with Vardi's health I kind of wanted this horse to be as stress free a possible....bum! And no tying up in the vicinity of other horses is not a good idea....she turns her quarters to them!
 
I had a mare that absolutely could not be turned out with others, a portion of the field was sectioned off for her and she was fine, lived that way for years
 
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