Horse pacing in walk - would you view it as a soundness problem?

[Wagtail]

My friend when to view a horse a few days ago and showed me the video clips she took of him being lunged and ridden. She wants him for dressage, hopefully to go as high as medium or further. Horse is 11 and has competed medium on a few occasions with respectable scores. However, on the lunge, the horse paces in walk, or ALMOST paces in walk. It's kind of a cross between a walk and a pace, but closest to a pace. He's slightly better ridden, but not much. He is quite straight through the hocks and long through the back and I just can't see him coping with competing much longer at any higher than novice, if that. Also, in trot he doesn't flex his hocks as much as he should. But friend is smitten. He's a good price (for his level of training), has huge paces and an adorable character. He's a load and go type of horse that is really laid back at competitions. Anyway, every horse she shows me seems to have one issue or another and I sometimes think she must feel I am just being negative. I wish I didn't see so much unsoundness.

So my question is, would pacing in walk make you suspect a soundness issue with the horse?

 

[FfionWinnie]

My friend's horse does not pace yet she entered a prelim test and the judge said he did and marked him well down so whether or not it's a soundness issue its not going to do for dressage in my humble opinion!

Hopefully she will get it vetted if she is desperate to buy it?

 

[Kylara]

I'm seeing more and more horses with lateral walks. Drives me crazy. You'll struggle to get good walk marks (anything above 4) with a lateral walk in dressage. Not great and at 11 I would think almost impossible to train out of. Personally I would avoid (and have avoided quite a few in my current search, very overpriced too!). Lots of people don't seem to be able to see the lateral walk and get fobbed off with it and often overcharged.

Lateral walk would not necessarily indicate a soundness issue, but could be conformation problem or potential early training issue. At 11 I would think it will always have it, and it may get worse due to wear on the joints and through the sides.

If she views it again, see it walking over poles to have a look at how it manages that.

But I'd avoid for dressage, walk marks are going to be very poor (think 2s). And IMO a good walk sets a horse up and it's hard to get good paces without a good walk.

 

[EQUIDAE]

As the walk has double points associated with it a poor walk would automatically mean this horse isn't good.

 

[Wagtail]

My friend's horse does not pace yet she entered a prelim test and the judge said he did and marked him well down so whether or not it's a soundness issue its not going to do for dressage in my humble opinion!

Hopefully she will get it vetted if she is desperate to buy it?

Yes, she would get him vetted, but I am trying to help her avoid the expense. Personally, I wouldn't consider the horse for anything more than hacking. I think he's going to break if he isn't given an easier life.

I'm seeing more and more horses with lateral walks. Drives me crazy. You'll struggle to get good walk marks (anything above 4) with a lateral walk in dressage. Not great and at 11 I would think almost impossible to train out of. Personally I would avoid (and have avoided quite a few in my current search, very overpriced too!). Lots of people don't seem to be able to see the lateral walk and get fobbed off with it and often overcharged.

Lateral walk would not necessarily indicate a soundness issue, but could be conformation problem or potential early training issue. At 11 I would think it will always have it, and it may get worse due to wear on the joints and through the sides.

If she views it again, see it walking over poles to have a look at how it manages that.

But I'd avoid for dressage, walk marks are going to be very poor (think 2s). And IMO a good walk sets a horse up and it's hard to get good paces without a good walk.

Thank you. That's a very good point and I will certainly discuss that with her. I see so much unsoundness in horses that I think my friend just thinks 'here we go again', but the marks thing would be more persuasive.

As the walk has double points associated with it a poor walk would automatically mean this horse isn't good.

Thanks. I'm going to point that out to her.

 

[Kylara]

Yes, you'd be lucky to get a 4 to be honest with a very pronounced lateral walk. I wouldn't give any more than a 2, but then I am harsh on things like lateral walks and get so disappointed when you see people oblivious to them.

I saw a nice looking gelding and asked for walk video and price and was shocked to see it had a very pronounced lateral walk (professional dressage dealer) and was priced at £25k as an advanced medium horse. I was shocked to say the least and had to yell at the sofa a bit. No way a horse with a lateral walk was worth that much, and no way it would succeed at adv med, but the amount of comments on the FB advert with the fresh video on the next day was appalling, not a single one noticed the lateral walk! Would have been a 1 or 2 in a test it was so bad.

Really really avoid lateral walks in a dressage horse, unless everything else is perfect and horse is a baby as you can sometimes train it out, or at least train it to walk better. But even then it's a gamble!

 

[Wagtail]

Yes, you'd be lucky to get a 4 to be honest with a very pronounced lateral walk. I wouldn't give any more than a 2, but then I am harsh on things like lateral walks and get so disappointed when you see people oblivious to them.

I saw a nice looking gelding and asked for walk video and price and was shocked to see it had a very pronounced lateral walk (professional dressage dealer) and was priced at £25k as an advanced medium horse. I was shocked to say the least and had to yell at the sofa a bit. No way a horse with a lateral walk was worth that much, and no way it would succeed at adv med, but the amount of comments on the FB advert with the fresh video on the next day was appalling, not a single one noticed the lateral walk! Would have been a 1 or 2 in a test it was so bad.

Really really avoid lateral walks in a dressage horse, unless everything else is perfect and horse is a baby as you can sometimes train it out, or at least train it to walk better. But even then it's a gamble!

Thank you. I will show her this thread if she hasn't already decided not to have him.

 

[be positive]

I had one in livery that had a lateral walk and poor quality 4 time canter to go with it, this horse had just passed a 5 stage vetting yet to me he never looked sound from the moment they unloaded him, vet clearly thought otherwise. He could do a decent test, if the rider asked nothing in walk he stayed in 4 time, just, otherwise he got a 2 or 3, they had to ride strongly in canter to keep him in 3 time, this was an imported warmblood that had probably been pushed too much in it's early training.

I would not consider buying one for dressage, it will get slated in the walk marks, lose collectives as well, it may be lovely, it may pass a vetting but I suspected something neurological was also going on and my physio was almost certain it was a slight wobbler as it could not stay balanced when having it's tail pulled.

 

[Wagtail]

I had one in livery that had a lateral walk and poor quality 4 time canter to go with it, this horse had just passed a 5 stage vetting yet to me he never looked sound from the moment they unloaded him, vet clearly thought otherwise. He could do a decent test, if the rider asked nothing in walk he stayed in 4 time, just, otherwise he got a 2 or 3, they had to ride strongly in canter to keep him in 3 time, this was an imported warmblood that had probably been pushed too much in it's early training.

I would not consider buying one for dressage, it will get slated in the walk marks, lose collectives as well, it may be lovely, it may pass a vetting but I suspected something neurological was also going on and my physio was almost certain it was a slight wobbler as it could not stay balanced when having it's tail pulled.

Thank you. I'm actually amazed at how many vets just can't see very slight unsoundness or discomfort. I saw some confo pictured of the horse and based on them I advised my friend not to view. But when I saw the videos, especially the lunge ones without gadgets, I immediately thought the horse didn't look right behind, and then spotted the lateral walk. To me it looked as though he was protecting himself by walking that way and the hocks were very straight, hardly bending at all. Front end was lovely. Everything was level, no lameness, just this odd gait and the stiff hocks. And yes, this horse has been worked very hard like many WBs from an early age.

 

[be positive]

Thank you. I'm actually amazed at how many vets just can't see very slight unsoundness or discomfort. I saw some confo pictured of the horse and based on them I advised my friend not to view. But when I saw the videos, especially the lunge ones without gadgets, I immediately thought the horse didn't look right behind, and then spotted the lateral walk. To me it looked as though he was protecting himself by walking that way and the hocks were very straight, hardly bending at all. Front end was lovely. Everything was level, no lameness, just this odd gait and the stiff hocks. And yes, this horse has been worked very hard like many WBs from an early age.

I was totally amazed that the vet passed this horse with no comment about how he moved, I didn't see the horse until after the purchase, I questioned the vet on his next visit and he still saw nothing amiss despite him "failing" the tests done by my physio, it could not turn in a small circle properly either and in my view should have failed the vetting or at least had the points raised he also always looked wrong behind unless very relaxed when he did start to work over his back, it was not a cheap project although was sold cheaply as a hack in the end as it also proved to be far from the easy schoolmaster it had been bought as.

 

[gunnergundog]

Horse is 11 and has competed medium on a few occasions with respectable scores.
So my question is, would pacing in walk make you suspect a soundness issue with the horse?

How many BD points does it have? Ask to see the test sheets and check collectives and walk marks as advised above. A lateral walk is not correct; however, horse may still trot up sound and pass flexion tests etc. It CAN however be symptomatic of SI issues as friend knows to her great cost.

 

[Damnation]

It would put me off buying that horse especially for dressage. I'd want a good walk as a given.

 

[oldie48]

I recently watched a very expensive 5 year old being worked, he paced as soon as he was asked to walk out, the very experienced trainer said the only way to deal with it was to accept the poor marks for walk and try to make sure rider maximised everything else. I'd walk away, a decent walk is important.

 

[Nappy Croc]

I wouldn't get a horse that didn't have 3 pure gaits for dressage, lameness/back/breeding/riding aside

 

[Wagtail]

How many BD points does it have? Ask to see the test sheets and check collectives and walk marks as advised above. A lateral walk is not correct; however, horse may still trot up sound and pass flexion tests etc. It CAN however be symptomatic of SI issues as friend knows to her great cost.

I'm not sure how many points as didn't ask but reading between the lines I do wonder if the lateral walk is a more recent thing and that coupled with the hocks are why he's for sale. He's up for £17,500 which for a horse competing at medium is pretty cheap. But as I say, I am not convinced of his future soundness. He looks to me like a horse that is about to break. I hope that his owner sells him on to a quieter life because he sounds like a real sweetie.

 

[ihatework]

It's not necessarily a soundness issue per se
It is a gait issue.
This could be because the horse has a naturally lateral walk,
It's more likely to be a training issue.

That said you cannot rule out soundness, but the horse may still be lateral despite of rather than because of.

Obviously a tending to lateral walk is less than desirable for dressage, it really will hit the marks. Now the horse may have many other desirable qualities and if priced correctly and buyer willing to accept the fault then it's not necessarily a bad purchase.

It would be interesting to look at a history of test sheets - how often is the walk mentioned as an issue and has it always been that way or is it a more recent thing?

FWIW I've been lucky to train on a PSG horse recently (competed to PSG but schooled higher). He has a lateral walk which always limited him competitively but shouldn't take away from the fact he is a wonderful horse and schoolmaster.

 

[Wagtail]

Thank you. I always assumed it was a soundness issue, but reading some of the replies, it may not be. But in any case, my friend has decided to walk away. I am pleased. For that money, I think she is better looking for something younger with talent that may not be competing as high, but which will have a lot fewer miles on the clock and could take her further.

 

[be positive]

Thank you. I always assumed it was a soundness issue, but reading some of the replies, it may not be. But in any case, my friend has decided to walk away. I am pleased. For that money, I think she is better looking for something younger with talent that may not be competing as high, but which will have a lot fewer miles on the clock and could take her further.

I think she has made a sensible decision, for that money I would expect 3 true paces and would rather have something less advanced than a horse with a flaw that may become frustrating at best, extremely expensive at worst, it just shows that even with a very healthy budget it is still difficult to find a straightforward horse.

 

[ihatework]

Thank you. I always assumed it was a soundness issue, but reading some of the replies, it may not be. But in any case, my friend has decided to walk away. I am pleased. For that money, I think she is better looking for something younger with talent that may not be competing as high, but which will have a lot fewer miles on the clock and could take her further.

Yes for the price you quote Id be looking for something far more advanced than medium if it had a lateral walk. That sort of ball park will buy a nicely started novice horse with temperament for an amateur

 

[eggs]

I think your friend has made the right decision to walk away. A lateral walk would certainly get marked down in a dressage test which would also bring the collective for paces mark down too. The confirmation issues would be more of a concern to me.

I also don't think that £17,500 for a horse competing medium is that reasonable unless it is consistently pulling good marks. My old trainer always said that the vast majority of horses should be able to do a medium test with training.

 

[ihatework]

I think your friend has made the right decision to walk away. A lateral walk would certainly get marked down in a dressage test which would also bring the collective for paces mark down too. The confirmation issues would be more of a concern to me.

I also don't think that £17,500 for a horse competing medium is that reasonable unless it is consistently pulling good marks. My old trainer always said that the vast majority of horses should be able to do a medium test with training.

It the investment in training that makes them that price + +
I'd challenge you to find a good selection of nicely trained, sound, competitive medium horses with 17k ... You'd have to look quite hard, there will be some no doubt but not as easy as you might think.