Horse preferences, how much does the horse's opinion count?

[ycbm]

I've been musing about some of the threads about cruelty, and I've got a genuine situation which I would love to know other people's views on.

I own a horse who will not touch his food if he sees or hears me go anywhere near the van before he has finished his breakfast, or if the ramp is left open. I would not be able to catch him if he saw me do the van first. It's very clear that he does not want to be taken away from home. He gets in it seemingly perfectly happily and travels really well, but it nags me that it's so obvious that if it was his choice he would never go anywhere in it. He does it for me, because I ask him to.

I sometimes wonder what right I have to ask him to do something he makes it so clear he doesn't want to do, even though he does it willingly when asked. Views?
.

 

[milliepops]

Personally I try not to have any red lines but if I can make a situation work for me, around a horse's preferences then I do.

 

[Sprogladite01]

Does he enjoy himself once you get to wherever you're going? If he's a good traveller and seems to have a good time while he's out I wouldn't worry too much. There may be an anxiety about the actual loading part maybe if he's otherwise ok?

 

[planete]

Could it just be nervous anticipation? If he really did not want to go I would expect some stronger manifestation of his dislike? One of my Arabs would always get very excited and have the runs as soon as he understood he was going somewhere but was always very willing to get into any transport and seemed to enjoy his outings.

 

[Jenko109]

The sight of the trailer sends all of ours bat**** and on a mad, uncatchable hoolie round the field.

I dont put it down to them disliking the trailer or going out. I just think they find it exciting.

 

[humblepie]

I fully get that. Mine happily eats whilst being plaited but stops when lorry turns up. He happily loads and doesn’t look bothered in any other way. His opinion does count though. He can cope with big horse shows but struggled with the county show atmosphere so much as I love the county shows we don’t do them. We do the qualifiers at the pure horse shows. I don’t feel the need to give him calmers to be able to do what I want.

 

[Blanche]

I had a New Forest stallion who wouldn’t eat or stop pacing if the lorry was moved or he could see the ramp was down. With him it was because he didn’t want to be left behind. He once trotted across the yard and up the ramp with a student. Thereafter I made sure the ramp was up if students were handling him.

To answer the question, I do sometimes cater to their preferences , depends what it is really. I want any animal to be comfortable with what is going on as I feel you get more out of them that way. Is he happy when he gets there?

 

[HorseMaid]

I think most horses only do what they do (be ridden, travel etc) because we ask them to do it. At the base level, you could ask what right we have to ask them to do ANYTHING. But then what would be the point of having them? Should we even have them if we are essentially asking them to do things WE want them to do?

My mare I am sure would be living her best life if she lived wild on Exmoor or something with other horses, having a foal every year and no human intervention. There's stuff we do that I know she enjoys, like hacking, galloping fast along the beach, and schooling, she loves to work, but only because I ask her to. There's stuff she does because I ask her that she doesn't really like to do, like loading/travelling, and being stabled at night, and seeing the farrier. What would we all do if we decided that our horse preferring not to do something meant we didn't do it? Many of us wouldn't do a lot!

I feel as if I'm rambling, but I think my point is that our whole sport is built around asking horses to do what they don't necessarily want to, and it's all for our own benefit. There are kind ways and cruel ways of achieving things however.

 

[Patterdale]

No one gets through life without ever having to do anything they don’t want to.
I just try and balance it by making sure I give them the best possible life in return, and comfortable tack and workload.
Mine live quite a nice natural life in that they live in a stable herd on 10+ acres of varied terrain. They get cold and lose weight in winter, then put it on in summer. I don’t have a school and we go round in circles possibly once or twice a month. It’s mainly hacking. They still manage to be well schooled and presentable though.

I’d rather have the one who will be eventing this year in a stable on a yard with a school, but I don’t think he’d like that so that’s one of the ways in which his preference triumphs.

I think that’s all we can do really. I think mine have a better life than they would in the wild anyway.

 

[ycbm]

I've had horse who anticipated and two who would get on any open lorry even of it wasn't there for them. This is definitely, but quietly, I don't want to go, I will go if you ask.

When he was 4 and had multiple sarcoids, he would often pop out a new one when I took him anywhere.
.

 

[meleeka]

Does he enjoy it once you’ve got where you’re going? That would be the key for me. I retired one because he just didn’t enjoy being ridden. He was quite nappy on the way out and then rushed for home. I’m pretty sure the problem was our confidence, his went first, then mine eventually followed. I didn’t enjoy it either in the end, so I retired him and hes been a happy field ornament ever since. I could have persevered of course and I might have done if he were an expensive competition horse, but mine are pets first and foremost.

 

[SEL]

I've got one who is very particular about what stables she goes in. She's currently in one I wanted to use for storage but she wouldn't settle where I hoped to put her. Last time she got like that I caught a panicked kick so she gets the bedroom she wants ?

She used to be funny to load but has been fine since I changed transport company so I wonder if their lorry is a smoother ride.

 

[Cragrat]

I have one similar - as soon as any sign of preparing for an outing is noticed, he stops eating, and starts pooing. However, he loads easily and travels well, no sweating etc, even by himself, and seems to enjoy his outings. Planete may be close - I think of it as anticipation releasing adrenalin.

 

[Marigold4]

I have the same dilemma myself! See yesterday's thread. Other horses I've had, it never crossed my mind that they were unhappy travelling - they just loaded easily, travelled well and happy when they got there. This one is not happy. He loads, OK, travels OK but clearly anxious and a bit sweaty and wants to go home. I've done a lot of training with him but he still doesn't like it. I've also had to work really hard to get the right saddle for him and back right off on training but he does now seem happy ridden for short sessions and we can build on that.

So are some horses just more sensitive than others or we do we get more connected to some horses and can feel what they are thinking more? Or do they wrap us round their little "fingers" and get away with not doing what we want by pulling on our emotions?

Currently looking for an elderly well-behaved travelling companion pony to solve the issue. Shame you are the other end of the country - perhaps our sensitive souls could have "bunked" up for travelling!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I've been musing about some of the threads about cruelty, and I've got a genuine situation which I would love to know other people's views on.

I own a horse who will not touch his food if he sees or hears me go anywhere near the van before he has finished his breakfast, or if the ramp is left open. I would not be able to catch him if he saw me do the van first. It's very clear that he does not want to be taken away from home. He gets in it seemingly perfectly happily and travels really well, but it nags me that it's so obvious that if it was his choice he would never go anywhere in it. He does it for me, because I ask him to.

I sometimes wonder what right I have to ask him to do something he makes it so clear he doesn't want to do, even though he does it willingly when asked. Views?
.

My mare shy's away from me if she sees me going in the electric room where electric meter, hammers, screwdrivers, leaf blower screws, nails stuff like that. If I have been in there putting blower away then try catch her in, I got the nose bit on 2 weeks ago and she yanked her head back and galloped off. No one could catch her after that, so left her out on her own till dee pooing done. I have to wash my hands and spray body spray on before I can catch her after being in there.

Must remind her of something, she also freaks at some men, hoodies, if they have a Lithuanian accent or Irish or just a look about them that reminds her of a bad time. I seen her with REAL FEAR in her eyes, if the guy who owns a caravan tries to go near her. Snort snort, eyes wide complete fear.

 

[ycbm]

Does he enjoy it once you’ve got where you’re going?

I don't know. He behaves perfectly, always has, but I always feel he's doing it for me and not for himself. I'm comparing him with other horses who made it clear their whole purpose in life was to hunt, event and jump.
.

 

[shortstuff99]

Yes I do let my horses have preferences, old potato doesn't really enjoy much competing so I don't really do it anymore. She also hated poles and hacking so I didn't do that for a long while either, now she has decided she likes jumping so I'm doing that with her.

One of mine hated dressage and loved jumping so I just jumped her.

 

[Hepsibah]

You are a partnership. You have the right to ask him to do anything. If you ask him and he complies then I don't see any issue. If you asked and he refused, doing whatever it took to get him on the box might end up being a different matter.

 

[paddy555]

I've had horse who anticipated and two who would get on any open lorry even of it wasn't there for them. This is definitely, but quietly, I don't want to go, I will go if you ask.

When he was 4 and had multiple sarcoids, he would often pop out a new one when I took him anywhere.
.

I wouldn't go then. Only you can work out if he really doesn't want to go, no one else knows him so well. I would see no pleasure in it if the horse clearly was unhappy about going. I had one who didn't like it so we didn't go. That was in a 7.5 lorry so little we could do to improve the situation vehicle wise.
I've had others that have been most peeved if they were not included.

I think it's very easy for people to make excuses as there are on this thread. Does the horse enjoy it once he is there, is he just excited not stressed etc etc
One could look at it that those are excuses because people want to take their horse to X and that means travelling. It is easy to look at it that "I want to go and it doesn't seem to make the horse that bothered so he can't be suffering that much" to justify it to themselves.

As I've got older I work a lot more on the horse's wellbeing (iro preferences) and what he wants.

The Mark Todd thread was interesting seeing what horse people in general (not just on here) find acceptable to make their horses compete. Fortunately I am not on a livery yard so I don't have to listen to that sort of crap.

 

[paddy555]

You are a partnership. You have the right to ask him to do anything. .

do you? why do you think that? because you own him and he is your possession and you have paid and financed him? or for some other reason.

I find your 2 sentences contradictory. You are a partnership. So both partners have rights. OK one is the larger shareholder and has to be to prevent danger to the horse. ie he has to do as he is told when it really counts or you could both get hurt.
Then you say you have the right to ask him to do anything. If he refuses what are his rights? does he have any?

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't call him unhappy Paddy. He follows me in on a loose lead, he travels quiet and dry and gets out sensibly at the other end,. He stands tied to the van with no fuss and he does everything he's asked while we're there with a good spirit. And we come home and he unloads quietly and goes out in the field without going mad, he just walks off.

I just know that given a totally free choice, he would not choose to get in that van. He does it, with seemingly good heart, for me.
.

 

[Equi]

It matters to a point. If it is something that really won’t make much difference to my life I’ll abide by it; eg my old lad would NOT stand tied up in the yard for me. So even though it would have been very handy to be able to groom outside/muck out while he stood it just didn’t happen and I had to make other arrangements. I was not going to waste our time teaching a 20yo horse to stand. Same with farrier, fidgety. He got a big bucket of feed stuck in front of him - might be seen as rewarding the bad behaviour but I was much happier standing with a bucket for 20mins than a twitch and so was he. Eventually he would stand fine and the bucket was needed less and less. The opposite was he would be very bolshy to walk with at the start - that was unacceptable and I worked with him to stop that from the word go. It was not allowed even though his opinion may have been I want to go faster because I’m anxious. That was not for him to decide. Eventually he became a lot calmer and happier in that regard. Pick your battles I think I’m trying to say.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am not into horses doing things for a living they don’t like .
As an example I have had two who did not like water really disliked it .
I sold one ( it was unsuitable for other jobs we had as well ) and the other I changed jobs and eventually it ended up on loan to a friend for hacking where it still will nap sometimes if it see the lake .
I can’t see any point in preserving with an event horse who really dislikes water .

However in ycbm’s example I would not stop travelling the horse because of what described I would ask what does the horse do most often when he gets to the other end of the journey .
I make sure I travel my horses very often ,travelling to work is as normal as working at home when I have a new one .
Travelling is never about just going for doing things that’s hard .
But for my horses travelling is part of everyday life .

 

[Hepsibah]

do you? why do you think that? because you own him and he is your possession and you have paid and financed him? or for some other reason.

I find your 2 sentences contradictory. You are a partnership. So both partners have rights. OK one is the larger shareholder and has to be to prevent danger to the horse. ie he has to do as he is told when it really counts or you could both get hurt.
Then you say you have the right to ask him to do anything. If he refuses what are his rights? does he have any?

You don't think a horse and their human are a partnership? Or do you think that because the human purchases the horse, they cannot claim the horse has any say in the relationship?

 

[palo1]

I wouldn't call him unhappy Paddy. He follows me in on a loose lead, he travels quiet and dry and gets out sensibly at the other end,. He stands tied to the van with no fuss and he does everything he's asked while we're there with a good spirit. And we come home and he unloads quietly and goes out in the field without going mad, he just walks off.

I just know that given a totally free choice, he would not choose to get in that van. He does it, with seemingly good heart, for me.
.

Is he just expressive and confident/natural in showing his response to that situation? If he is calm and confident doing the things you ask he probably isn't worried so much as just giving you the nod that he doesn't particularly want to get in the van. Perhaps he would rather stay at home and hang out with his mate; that is pretty natural. It could be lots of things that he is perhaps not so up for or he has got 'stuck' in that response somehow.

 

[palo1]

You don't think a horse and their human are a partnership? Or do you think that because the human purchases the horse, they cannot claim the horse has any say in the relationship?

I think there is a problem in saying that there is 'a partnership' tbh as horses get no choice whatsoever in who they end up with. We might want to build a sense of partnership but a horse has very few choices in some ways. Obviously the way in which we deal with them can result in a partnership; that is rather different and may not actually happen even after years of ownership in some cases sadly.

 

[Spotherisk]

I have this dilemma with rugs. Thursday Harley had his off for a few hours and didn’t want it back on, he’s moulting like mad, but the weather was going to be terrible, so I had to insist.

 

[Hepsibah]

I am not into horses doing things for a living they don’t like .
As an example I have had two who did not like water really disliked it .
I sold one ( it was unsuitable for other jobs we had as well ) and the other I changed jobs and eventually it ended up on loan to a friend for hacking where it still will nap sometimes if it see the lake .
I can’t see any point in preserving with an event horse who really dislikes water ...

These are cases of a partnership not working for one meant it wasn't working for both. The horses made their feelings known and the human didn't force it, they just dissolved the partnership and found a more suitable partner.

 

[paddy555]

I wouldn't call him unhappy Paddy. He follows me in on a loose lead, he travels quiet and dry and gets out sensibly at the other end,. He stands tied to the van with no fuss and he does everything he's asked while we're there with a good spirit. And we come home and he unloads quietly and goes out in the field without going mad, he just walks off.

I just know that given a totally free choice, he would not choose to get in that van. He does it, with seemingly good heart, for me.
.

I think there are 2 things here. Presumably Ludo and only you can know and horses in general and their preferences. For horses in general then I would take their preferences into account.

I used to think nothing about sticking horses into the trailer (rice) and travelling until one day I tried travelling in it myself. I managed one mile before I was shouting for OH to stop and trying to avoid being sick. After that I was far more sympathetic. I wouldn't make an unhappy horse travel in a trailer. A lorry is a much nicer ride but some still don't like it.

As for taking horse's opinions into account then it depends. Travelling to lessons, events etc is a luxury, a hobby for the owner and if the horses really didn't want to I wouldn't.
Last week the vet came and had to twitch the horse to get into the vein. He has always been difficult in that way. I didn't take his preferences ie not to be injected into account as I thought his teeth more important.

 

[Hepsibah]

I think there is a problem in saying that there is 'a partnership' tbh as horses get no choice whatsoever in who they end up with. We might want to build a sense of partnership but a horse has very few choices in some ways. Obviously the way in which we deal with them can result in a partnership; that is rather different and may not actually happen even after years of ownership in some cases sadly.

I was referring to YCBM's horse in particular rather than all horses.