Horse preferring low hands with contact

smiggy

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My little cob is very fussy with the contact, a regular dressage comment is needs more steady contact . It’s not my hands as she is the same for my RI who rides gp and is very non handy. She has regular dental checks and I have had a bit consultant.
Generally I find she goes best in a bomber happy tongue.the bit consultant suggested a hanging cheek ns jointed but she doesn’t like that, drops behind it.
I also tried to go ultra soft with a soft plastic ported bit, but she just ignores that and goes very on the forehand.
She does have a big tongue and a weird habit of often having her tongue hanging out at rest ( not when ridden )
I think she is genuinely worried about the contact as I have to pick up very carefully after fwlr or she rushes off and the lighter you can be the better but then it’s a trick to keeping the consistency !
Today by sheer fluke, I found that if I widen my hands and lower them, she is much more consistent and we got the best Canter transitions and Canter I have had for ages.
Does this ring a bell to anyone as to what part of the action of the bit she does t like ? And hence what might help ?
 

blitznbobs

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Widening and lowering hands tends to let horses drop their shoulders and although they lower their heads they are not working thru their back properly. It also encourages the rider to lean forward. Sounds like you need the horse to work more over his back and use you seat more (think rise big or rise small) to control the length and speed of the pace.
 

smiggy

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Blitznbobs, thanks but actually she was working better through her back and hence better transitions. Obviously I don’t want to ride like this on a regular basis because of the leaning forward but I was wondering if the lower hands was causing the bit to act in a different way that she preferred , less bar action ?
 

blitznbobs

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Have you tried a ns verbindend? It’s a great bit for cobs with big tongues and have a benefit of lifting the shoulder and it’s also dressage legal ... I find most big tongued horses love them.. just athought
 

smiggy

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Thank you, think I have one kicking about on a universal but could give it a go on the snaffle ring just to see.
 

Pinkvboots

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I have used a verbindend on my warmblood who was really sensitive in the mouth she seemed to really like it, I also used a straight bar happy mouth which she really liked as well.

How is your saddle fit? Just asking as often problems in the mouth can often be a cause of something elsewhere like the saddle not fitting very well.
 

smiggy

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Thanks. I tried a straight bar happy mouth and she just foamed like crazy, drool everywhere, odd !
Saddle was checked about four months ago, I think it’s fine. I use other saddles as well , as we play at western, and she is always the same. Good thought though.
 

planete

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I have used a straight bar with a port for a similar problem but any bit which will give her large tongue extra room to avoid being too squashed by the bit should help.
 

cobgoblin

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If she's happier with your hands low and wide that sounds as if you are steadying the bit in her mouth. Have you tried a full cheek bit?
 

Cortez

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Riding with the hands down below the withers and wide apart seems to bit a bit of a fashion at the moment, however it is so wrong on every level that I don't even know where to begin.....Quite possibly why the horse seems to go better this way is to do with how you are riding, not the bit itself.
 

DabDab

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Riding with the hands down below the withers and wide apart seems to bit a bit of a fashion at the moment, however it is so wrong on every level that I don't even know where to begin.....Quite possibly why the horse seems to go better this way is to do with how you are riding, not the bit itself.

Often a rider's hands are stiller down there because they are concentrating on keeping them in a particular place I think. And the action of putting the hands down there can soften the elbows and engage the rider's core.
 

smiggy

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Cortez, it wasn’t quite that low and I categorically will not be riding like that. I was just hoping that someone with a better understanding of the mechanics of the bit might be able to suggest why that was the case.
Fully accept that it may be the whole riding concept rather than the bit itself but I will go a long way to make her more comfortable in the contact, so if there was any information I could gain from this insight, then I was all for it.
It was such a quick change that it just felt to me like she was saying “ oh that’s comfy “ rather than it being anything to do with my posture, core, seat etc.
Am going to try the verbinden mouthpiece tomorrow and if she seems to like that, will order a hanging cheek version to increase stability.
Will let you know !
 

KittyH

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I would imagine that lower wider hands would increase the pressure on the bars of the mouth and reduce the pressure on the corners of the lips. I have been advised to ride like this for short periods during a lesson with a couple of different very eminent dressage trainers and have found it a useful tool when used in this way.
 

JFTDWS

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It was such a quick change that it just felt to me like she was saying “ oh that’s comfy “ rather than it being anything to do with my posture, core, seat etc.

But the horse's sensation of your posture and seat would change as quickly as the sensation of the bit when you move your hands down - it will change how you sit entirely, and the horse could be reacting to that (or, indeed, the stillness as DD suggests).
 

Cortez

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Cortez, it wasn’t quite that low and I categorically will not be riding like that. I was just hoping that someone with a better understanding of the mechanics of the bit might be able to suggest why that was the case.
Fully accept that it may be the whole riding concept rather than the bit itself but I will go a long way to make her more comfortable in the contact, so if there was any information I could gain from this insight, then I was all for it.
It was such a quick change that it just felt to me like she was saying “ oh that’s comfy “ rather than it being anything to do with my posture, core, seat etc.
Am going to try the verbinden mouthpiece tomorrow and if she seems to like that, will order a hanging cheek version to increase stability.
Will let you know !

The reason that your horse reacted when you changed your hands (and entire posture, for the worse as far as your ability to use your seat and legs; keep your shoulders above your hips; have a straight alignment from your head/shoulders/elbows/hip/ankle and elbow/wrist/rein and use your abdominal and back muscles and hands properly....), is because you moved the pressure off the horse's lips (and possibly occasionally first molars), and transferred it to the tongue and bars. This means that the pressure has been taken off not only his mouth, but also you are now not able to really push him forwards effectively: happy days for the horse who can now just poddle about without the rider bothering him. But it is a disastrous method - a quick fix that destroys the rider's position and removes the ability to really ride the back end and develop a proper feel. I despair if this is actually being taught by supposed professional instructors.
 

smiggy

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Cortez, it was exactly the opposite though. I don’t know if you have ever ridden a cob but they are so on the forehand getting a good Canter transition takes a lot of time and patience. Believe you me, after two years of trying and weekly lessons with a dressage trainer, I know what a good transition feels like ( even if we don’t often get them !). Usually the only way to to have her very collected and pushed forward , pushing from behind, and at the point of transition she tends to come up against the contact. With the lower hands, she stayed round, worked from behind and pushed into Canter and managed to maintain a slower , more collected Canter without rushing.
I’m sure no instructors would teach this though, exactly for the reasons of posture you describe , it would be a disastrous route.
 

Cortez

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Indeed I have trained many cobs to do some quite fiddly things. They are charming chaps, with some endemic problems to sort out as they are not really designed to be ridden: they are essentially small draught animals and happiest on their forehands, which is where you will put your horse if you ride him this way. Is that your cob in your profile pic? Here's one of mine:
Best rear.JPG
 

flying_high

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Indeed I have trained many cobs to do some quite fiddly things. They are charming chaps, with some endemic problems to sort out as they are not really designed to be ridden: they are essentially small draught animals and happiest on their forehands, which is where you will put your horse if you ride him this way. Is that your cob in your profile pic? Here's one of mine:
View attachment 26145
That is a cob not on his forehand, and looking quite uphill!
 

blitznbobs

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I second Cortez cobs are a bugger to get off the forehand but leaning forward and lowering your hands ain’t going to help... it is even more imperative with a cob not to get extra weight over its forehand as it naturally will drop its shoulders and be as happy as Larry ... just a thought is the bit high enough in the horses mouth and by lowering your hands you are pulling it off the horses teeth ...
 

paddi22

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yeah it sounds like a bitting issue. have you ever had a visit from a biting expert. I got one for my cob and it completely changed the way she went.

Anyone I have ever seen do the 'hands low and wide thing' was automatically tipping their weigh forward, and making the cob more on the forehand. the head stayed down cause the horse fell foreward into canter. I have a cob in at the moment, and my dressage instructor has me riding in a headcollar to stop the cob balancing on the contact. her view is she wants me to work on getting the cob pushing correctly from behind and more uphill instead of riding her front the front backwards. , and not to worry where the head is at because she naturally drops into a nice shape when she gets the moment of self carriage.
 

Mule

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Contact is my bete noir. I spent most of the summer hacking on a loose rein and messing about. Now I've started schooling properly again but I keep losing my horse's back in the walk 😡 Why is it so difficult??
 

Pearlsasinger

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Contact is my bete noir. I spent most of the summer hacking on a loose rein and messing about. Now I've started schooling properly again but I keep losing my horse's back in the walk 😡 Why is it so difficult??


It really isn't because of the loose rein! It sounds as if you forgot to ride effectively with your seat while you were hacking. I suggest some lessons on the lunge without reins to engage your core and the horse's back.
 

blitznbobs

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Contact is my bete noir. I spent most of the summer hacking on a loose rein and messing about. Now I've started schooling properly again but I keep losing my horse's back in the walk 😡 Why is it so difficult??

Because it’s a skill and takes a lot of practice to perfect and also cos it is taught so badly from the offing. It’s about knowing when to touch the rein , when to let it go, when to hold it steady and when to give it a good firm pull... and being able to respond quickly to change from one from the other
 

Mule

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It really isn't because of the loose rein! It sounds as if you forgot to ride effectively with your seat while you were hacking. I suggest some lessons on the lunge without reins to engage your core and the horse's back.
I think you're right about my seat. My riding has got sloppy.
 

Mule

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Because it’s a skill and takes a lot of practice to perfect and also cos it is taught so badly from the offing. It’s about knowing when to touch the rein , when to let it go, when to hold it steady and when to give it a good firm pull... and being able to respond quickly to change from one from the other
You're right. It's about 'feel' isn't it. Bloody feel 😡
 

Mule

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It really isn't because of the loose rein! It sounds as if you forgot to ride effectively with your seat while you were hacking. I suggest some lessons on the lunge without reins to engage your core and the horse's back.
Time on the lunge sounds good. I actually enjoy it. I can feel what's going on underneath me and influence it.
Although my big problem is not taking an honest contact with the reins. I need to work on that.
 

smiggy

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Cortez,please can I send her on schooling livery please ...😎
Yes she is the one I’m my avatar ( never had one before but so easy on new forum ! )
 
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