Horse really reluctant to engage, could it be due to hind suspensories?

[Paint it Lucky]

I have a 13 year old warmblood gelding who is working at ele/medium level, well intheory he is! I have real problems getting him to engage behind and work truely through up into a contact, some days he'll do it easily and work beautifully, sometimes he'll do it after trying out every evasion he can think of and some days I can get nothing constructive out of him. The days when he works really well are few and far between, we have lessons once a week and lately this is about the only time he goes really well but then my instructor does make me keep riding him through his evasions (it can take up to 30minutes for him to give in and go correctly), whereas when I'm on my own sometimes i'll just give up! It's very frustrating because I know he can do it. I'm not one for forcing horses to do anything but at the moment schooling him can feel like a big battle, I try to get him off the leg, he doesn't want to be, he wants to either lean on the contact or be hollow, getting him to be soft and carry himself is very difficult. We do lots of lateral work and transitions which do help but he is still always looking for ways to get out of working properly. I can't help but wonder if there is something wrong with him. He has had all the dstandard checks, saddle was done a few months ago, teeth also, he gets massaged regularly and has had physio/chiro before although they always say there's nothing much wrong with him. He doesn't have the best conformation to be a dressage horse, he's a bit long in the back and his hocks are a bit out behind him, he has always looked weak over his back and on his hindquarters. I have been doing more hillwork lately to try to help this and he is very fit at the moment as also does eventing though only BE90 level, he jumps fine which makes it hard for me to know if it's a pain issue or simple laziness and him not wanting to do it? He gets schooled on average 3 times a week for 40mins to 1hr (because it can take that long to get him going correctly!)then on the other days he hacks probably two or three times a week, normally one easy hack where I either do roadwork or work on stretching and one or two fittening ones where we do lots of trot and canter and try to make it fun. He competes one day most weekends a mixture of either sj, dressage, one day events (have only managed 4 this year due to work) and occassionally fun rides with lots of cross country jumps which he really enjoys. I don't tend to jump at home very often (probably only a couple of times a month) as I like him to be fresh for this and he doesn't seem to need it (nearly always clear at comps), I am worried if I do too much he'll get bored! Occassionally he gets lunged where he does go quite nicely, just to get him stretching and loose. His trot is quite nice and not too hard to ride/influence but his canter is where we have trouble, he really does not want to engage and sit, which is why I wonder if he may have problems in his back legs, possibly hocks or hind suspensories? He is not lame and has no heat/swelling or anything, but he is the sort of horse who is quite tough so I think would just carry on working even if he was in pain I don't have much experience of hind suspensory injury though I know it's common in dressage horses. Sorry this post is so long! I will shut up now and see if any of you can offer any good ideas of where we should go from here? The easy option would be to give up trying to make him into a dressage horse and just showjump him as that's what he's best at, but I love dressage unfortunately, and him! (Have had him 6 years) So would be nice to find a solution to this problem.

 

[jodie :)]

My horse has just been diagnosed with proximal suspensory desmitis in his near fore and he wasn't lame at all and had no swelling on his leg. His leg was heated though. He will be out for at least 9months. The easiest thing to do if you're concerned is to call the vet out, they could do a lameness work up and or ultrasound scan his legs. Expensive, but if it will give you peace of mind bite the bullet!
Hope it get resolved asap x

 

[Paint it Lucky]

Thanks Jodie, I am thinking of getting the vet out mainly for peace of mind if nothing else. How are they treating your horses condition? Also could I ask roughly how much does it cost (pm me if you like), I know it will vary but want to know what I'm getting myslf in for! He has been the soundest most genuine horse the whole time I've had him but his performance on the flat has definately changed lately

 

[dressage_diva]

Apologies in advance that this is long...

My horse was diagnosed with damage to both hind suspensories just over a year ago. He suddenly (at a competition!) went very short behind in both legs, particularly on a circle, but wasn't lame as such. A full workup, nerve blocks and ultrasound scans revealed thickening of both hind suspensories. The vets said because of his age (16), his poor conformation (he's a cob and not build for dressage) and the fact they were so thickened that he was never going to be able to fully engage behind again and should avoid dressage. They also said he probably shouldn't jump again (though a top Olympic vet who recently saw him for a foreleg lameness told me he thought he could pop the odd fences occasionally). He was effectively retired to hacking life. He did have shockwave treatment and about 6 weeks fields rest, before being brought back into work *very* slowly over several months. He seemed to be withstanding hacking several times a week until he managed to get a cancerous tumour and then tweak his off fore collateral ligament. He's just being brought back into work now.

Before the injury my horse was exercised 6 days a week - usually jumped once (he was competing BSJA with my friend too), flat schooled 2/3 times and then hacked 2/3 times a week. Mine seemed to thrive on being kept busy and he is also a good do-er so needed the exercise! The vets advised me that with his suspensories now, he should not be ridden more than 3-4 times a week. Unfortunately he's not so keen on this retired life and is quite fresh in the field (though an angel to hack!), so once he's been back in work longer, I may look to hack him for short distances 5 times a week and see if he can cope with it.

Looking back on the weeks before his diagnosis (and the sudden short stepping at the competition), he had a few off schooling sessions where he was lacking engagement (particularly in canter), but given he's always been quite lazy and had been out competing (show jumping), we thought he was just a bit tired from that, so didn't think much of it. Also about 6 months before he did seem to be stepping short, but we found some heat in his back and put it down to soreness after he'd managed to roll out of one of his turnout rugs. Looking back now I'm certain that all of these incidents were little signs to warn us his hind suspensories were bothering him, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I'd suggest you definitely get an experienced vet to come out and do a full lameness investigation, and some ultrasounds too - it's better to detect it earlier, than too late. I don't want to worry you, but your horse does sound very much like mine - tough, and not willing to let you know when they're feeling a bit sore

 

[algeredge]

I will be watching this thread with interest as you have described by horse exactly, although he has never been willing to enage rather than it being a sudden change. If your horse has a long back, its often harder for them to enage fully. I found lunging in a pessoa has helped . However if there has been a recent change, I would always seek a vets advice.

 

[jodie :)]

Thanks Jodie, I am thinking of getting the vet out mainly for peace of mind if nothing else. How are they treating your horses condition? Also could I ask roughly how much does it cost (pm me if you like), I know it will vary but want to know what I'm getting myslf in for! He has been the soundest most genuine horse the whole time I've had him but his performance on the flat has definately changed lately

Well, my horse (fortunately) has an acute injury, therefore he is on total box rest for 6 weeks with cold hosing as much as possible. For more serious injuries, they can use shock wave therapy, however it only has a 50/50 success rate and is VERY expensive (horses have to be sedated to have it done too). Mine will be rescanned in 6 weeks then hopefully if the injury looks better he will be brought back into controlled work very slowly over a 9-12 month period. I think the scans are about £160-180- not got my vet bill through yet! GULP! But they are well worth doing, fascinating to look at too, my vet even talked me through what she was looking for/what was normal etc. On my yard, people said there was nothing up with him and to just throw him in a field for a week or two then bring him back into work, but there was something at the back of my mind and deep down i knew that he was not right. I have had him for 2 1/2 years and NEVER had a single issue with lameness, so when he wasn't right, it was for my own peace of mind that I called the vet out and boy am i relieved that i did now! I would never have lived with myself if i would've carried on working him and made it worse However, there is a poorer prognosis for hind suspensory injuries i'm afraid so i hope this isn't the case with your boy! x

 

[Paint it Lucky]

Thanks for the advice everyone, certainly lots to think about. My boy doesn't step short infront, it's more that he tries to pull himself along with his front end and not use his back, or just works very flat and finds it hard to come under and up. I'd booked a massage for him anyway on monday so will speak to the lady who does this and see what she thinks, she sees him every few months so will be interested to see if she finds anything unusual. If not I'll prob get the vet, will speak to instructor too and see what she thinks.

 

[star]

you've described my horse too. He is capable of working Elem but will use every evasion possible to avoid it. However he is happy jumping 1m50 (no exaggeration) hedges out hunting and is a suberb jumper when we go eventing (BE90/100) so I find it hard to believe there's anything wrong although after ever rubbish dressage test I consider getting him looked at! Poor performance investigations never come cheap though as they're not easy to carry out.

My old horse did his proximal suspensory in a hindlimb. It was back in 2002 but shockwave wasn't an expensive option then - it was approx £150 per treatment plus sedation and he had 3 of them. I would 100% use it in every case of proximal suspensory disease, no matter how mild. It may not make all of them sound but it definitely helps a large proportion. (did my final yr dissertation at vet school on PSD) Mine was sound by the 3rd treatment so never had any follow up scans.