Horse Sedated but vet couldn't carry out procedure due to inexpe

shelly19

shelly19

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My horse has had Strangles and was recently scoped resulting in the guttural pouches needing to be flushed as she had pus in one. This was performed by a vet who was doing it for her first time, which was supervised by an experienced vet and was quick and straight forward. Today the inexperienced vet returned to scope again with another inexperienced vet for a follow up scope but after sedating the horse and trying for an hour to get into the pouches they couldn't do it. Is this acceptable and wwyd? Thanks
 
Not really, I would have expected them to possibly try for a bit (like 10 minuets) then ring the practice and asked for someone else experienced to come out and help. They all have to learn somehow, but it sound like they needed guiding though it again this time.
 
Have you spoken to the practice? Obviously they have to learn somehow - but I would not be minded to pay for a call out and sedation for a procedure which could not be completed because of something in their control.
 
I guess it happens and at this time of year you will definitely get new vets doing things for the first time but I would not be paying for this. I might also expect the call out fee for the revisit to be waived given that you have had to take time out twice.
 
Vets can do what they want, tell you what they want and charge what they want. No doubt they will say its your horses fault as to why they couldnt scope its pouches.
 
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Personally I would regard this as completely unacceptable and I would be vapourising-stroke-incandescent.

Your horse is NOT a laboratory animal, there to be experimented on and/or for inexperienced vets to learn their trade!!!

A comparison would be if you or I went to a (human) practitioner e.g. doctor or dentist, and the person you were allocated for a procedure was "inexperienced" and/or "learning". Would you or I be happy with this?? NO absolutely NOT!

I would not pay for this procedure and would be referring to matter to the Royal Veterinary College.

I would also be changing my vet forthwith.

Frankly appalling.
 
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Vets have to learn on something - but in this case as she was unable to complete the procedure I'd expect the practice not to charge for the follow up scope and to send an experienced vet out at your convenience- I'd be quite polite as long as they agreed to this - if they were trying to charge twice I'd be cross- all of us have to learn new skills and try them on our own at some point- consultatns weren't born able to do everything! What did the vet suggest at the time?
 
SusieT said:
Vets have to learn on something - but in this case as she was unable to complete the procedure I'd expect the practice not to charge for the follow up scope and to send an experienced vet out at your convenience- I'd be quite polite as long as they agreed to this - if they were trying to charge twice I'd be cross- all of us have to learn new skills and try them on our own at some point- consultatns weren't born able to do everything! What did the vet suggest at the time?
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Not on my horse they bleddi wouldn't!! ........ and "polite" would not be one of the responses I'd give to this situation if it were my horse :(
 
SusieT said:
Vets have to learn on something - but in this case as she was unable to complete the procedure I'd expect the practice not to charge for the follow up scope and to send an experienced vet out at your convenience- I'd be quite polite as long as they agreed to this - if they were trying to charge twice I'd be cross- all of us have to learn new skills and try them on our own at some point- consultatns weren't born able to do everything! What did the vet suggest at the time?
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Yes but they learn like they did on the first visit, with a more experienced vet to guide, not with another rooky.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Personally I would regard this as completely unacceptable and I would be vapourising-stroke-incandescent.

Your horse is NOT a laboratory animal, there to be experimented on and/or for inexperienced vets to learn their trade!!!

A comparison would be if you or I went to a (human) practitioner e.g. doctor or dentist, and the person you were allocated for a procedure was "inexperienced" and/or "learning". Would you or I be happy with this?? NO absolutely NOT!

I would not pay for this procedure and would be referring to matter to the Royal Veterinary College.

I would also be changing my vet forthwith.

Frankly appalling.
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No point complaining to rcvs, they are only interested in the most serious cases of professional misconduct, which means vets can more or less do what they want as far as the rcvs are concerned.
 
I wouldn't have minded too much if the inexperienced vet had been accompanied by an experienced vet, they have got to learn after all, but sending two inexperienced vets is unacceptable. I'd be fuming if I were you and, yes, I would complain.
 
VikingSong said:
I wouldn't have minded too much if the inexperienced vet had been accompanied by an experienced vet, they have got to learn after all, but sending two inexperienced vets is unacceptable. I'd be fuming if I were you and, yes, I would complain.
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This. I would not expect to pay for the failed visit, and requesting a senior vet comes out to perform the procedure.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Personally I would regard this as completely unacceptable and I would be vapourising-stroke-incandescent.

Your horse is NOT a laboratory animal, there to be experimented on and/or for inexperienced vets to learn their trade!!!

A comparison would be if you or I went to a (human) practitioner e.g. doctor or dentist, and the person you were allocated for a procedure was "inexperienced" and/or "learning". Would you or I be happy with this?? NO absolutely NOT!

I would not pay for this procedure and would be referring to matter to the Royal Veterinary College.

I would also be changing my vet forthwith.

Frankly appalling.
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OTT, if you been to hospital or dentist relatively frequently then the chances are you have been under the care of a junior/some one in training, they just don't disclose it.

OP- not great service so I wouldn't expect to pay for the sedation or call out but wouldn't blow it out of all proportion. Vets have to learn on real patients to get experience and I don't understand the 'not in my back door' attitude of some posters.
 
A similar (but not the same) thing happened to me.... The practice did invoice me for it, but after 'discussion' agreed to waive the charge. I ended up moving vets as i'd had so many issues with them it was the final straw. They did offer to send a senior vet to do it (liver biopsy) but I'd lost confidence in the them, so left.

Procedure was then carried out by successfully by new practice.

Definitely speak to them about it.
 
The inexperienced shouldn't be sent out with other inexperienced individuals unless the task to be performed is safe or ok to fail at. Everyone has to learn at some point, but the inexperienced need to be paired with the experienced and they shouldn't be sending very green vets to supervise other greener vets into situations like this. It's bad for the horse, its bad for the customer, its bad for the practice and its bad for the two novice vets who are now facing a drop in confidence as they've failed.

The practice failed horse and those two novices by sending them out without a suitable back-up (experienced vet) to deal with a problem or mistake.

I can appreciate that mistakes do happen and that many places are overworked and understaffed these days; but really they didn't set those two up well at all.






However i can see how it happened. The older novice had performed the operation successfully the previous time they and those overseeing them likely felt that they had sufficient experience from that and other trips to ensure a successful end; thus they were sent out with the other novice.
It clearly was a bad judgement call and I'd expect the practice to take responsibility for that. However in all honestly they might well have felt that the more experienced of the two novices had sufficient experience (both with that horse in particular and with the operation in general)

Part of me would say that a lack of confidence and desire to succeed can result in novices who try to keep going even well after the experienced would stop. It's a tunnel vision that can easily happen because they lack the experience to stop and either restart or step away; plus many are going to be very keen novices who really do want to help.
 
Thanks for the replies. The two vets tried for about 45 minutes. I objected, said I was making a complaint and they then took guidance over the phone and were still unsuccessful. One of the vets had done the procedure once before under guidance and the other had never done it before. They did keep apologizing but I was fuming and stressed. They have now confirmed I don't have to pay a penny for yesterdays visit.

Today a more experienced vet came back with one of the others and they successfully completed the wash although still pus in one of the guttural pouches so horse now has a catheter up it's nose for two weeks whist receiving Penicillin. They said it was for the best that the procedure hadn't been carried out yesterday as I would have needed another visit today for a more experienced vet to put the catheter in and had saved me £200.
 
I would be very unhappy. I don't see my job is to train vets on my horses. I don't get billed a much lower rate for training them so I would expect an experienced vet even if they were supervising a trainee. I would have expected to employ the practice to do a job for me and for it to be done efficiently. I would also not be happy with my horse being used as a guinea pig for an hour. I wouldn't pay. I would pay for only one visit and one procedure when it had been done satisfactorily after all that is all I asked them to do.
When booking something like this I would specify the vet I wanted and if they were not able to offer that vet or one that I was happy with I would not go ahead until they were available.
 
shelly19 said:
Thanks for the replies. The two vets tried for about 45 minutes. I objected, said I was making a complaint and they then took guidance over the phone and were still unsuccessful. One of the vets had done the procedure once before under guidance and the other had never done it before. They did keep apologizing but I was fuming and stressed. They have now confirmed I don't have to pay a penny for yesterdays visit.

Today a more experienced vet came back with one of the others and they successfully completed the wash although still pus in one of the guttural pouches so horse now has a catheter up it's nose for two weeks whist receiving Penicillin. They said it was for the best that the procedure hadn't been carried out yesterday as I would have needed another visit today for a more experienced vet to put the catheter in and had saved me £200.
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So they expect you to be grateful that your horse was put through a totally needless failed procedure with 2 inexperienced vets! If they'd sent someone more experienced in the first place then your horse would have been treated a day earlier and also endured a somewhat stress free time. Unbelievable!
 
I am surprised, the disease should normally be treated on a herd basis [AHT], and only one competent vet should attend unless an emergency call out.
Its a stressful time, your vet practice needs a sorting out.
 
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shelly19 said:
They said it was for the best that the procedure hadn't been carried out yesterday as I would have needed another visit today for a more experienced vet to put the catheter in and had saved me £200.
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What?!? I would definitely put the complaint, outcome, especially the comment above, into a letter and send it to the practice.
 
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