Horse turning nasty.

[jhoward]

16.2 4 yr gelding, bought as a 3 year old,.. knew he could be a handful turn out wise.. groom was scared of him. but for a LONG time saw no signs of him being nasty, then he had an inury to a back leg.. understandably whilst it was being cleaned he was lashing out..

skip forward a bit, horse got a bit attitudey.. if i asked him to move over and he didnt fancy it, hed shuffle at me, if i carried on he would then aim a back leg at me, we did have one stand off, where he really wouldnt move over in the stable to his arse met a whip.. this was through a heavy weight stable rug, and it went like this..

me over.
horse.. boot,
me whip and over.
horse boot
me., whip and over.

i won.

couple more incidents like the above, and generally just picking up the whip and giving him a loud over done it.

skip forward to last few months.

he had a front leg injury very nasty and required daily flushing and a few days of a poultice, he bit, he reared, at one point i had 2 people holding him., at one point even if i was just looking from the opposite side he was going for me with teeth.

so lets skip forward. a couple of weeks ago, whilst in (he is in a barn about 30 by 20 foot )i just randomly lent across him and feck me he went for me, proper ears back teeth going.. was taken back but thought no more,

then the next day i was grooming him and the same thing happened.

then he was laid down and i was sat beside him, one of the kids walked through the barn, gave him a fussy in passing and carried on, horse wnet for kids legs.

all 3 times recently have been on the same side.. i thought pain, and had a good poke and prod, vet out to do jabs, she also had a poke and prod.. nothing apparent.

today.. beast has been washed for a comp tomorrow, he got a smack for being rude, and then stood like a statue, at that point, he was being rude, he got one smack with a stand. and he stood.. i praised and did actully go and get him a polo.

put him in the barn, he threw himself on the floor. got up bucking he wanted to go out of the exit that leads to the field and it was not done up, he was at this point munching hay, i went to tie gate up and all hell let loose,

horse really went for me, both back feet lashing out AT ME. that was not acceptable, so he got a rollocking verbally and a whip thrown at his arse. to get him over. he went for me with back feeet, he went back wards, he went side ways, i lucky for me had someone holding the gate and got out.

had 30 seconds going dear god, and went back in, told him in a harsh voice to stand bloody still and walked up to his head. at this point he got a big fuss. i done the gate up and left him.

now ive dealt with horses that are nasty.. but never one that become nasty, his sire was nasty so that could be part of it.

i know ive mentioned the whip but he is not hit about, he isnt the sort of horse you can do that to, normally a firm no and he backs it in, but tonight was worthy of a bullet.

so what havnt i thought about.. why is a horse becoming nasty.?

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

What do you mean by he threw himself on the floor? Is he acting neurological?

 

[jhoward]

no, its his way of having a hissy fit after being washed he doesnt roll but goes around liturally throwing him self down.

 

[Cortez]

There are nasty horses, you know..........not everything has a nice explaination (pain, fear, whatever).

 

[Tiarella]

Sounds like a horse I used to know, turned out to be a brain tumour and had to be pts

 

[orionstar]

Affy would quite happily stomp on the vet, or the farriers head, after her hind leg op, and I'm the only one that can pick her back feet out without fear of getting a broken leg, but it sounds like your boy has taken protecting himself to a whole other level. A friend of mine had a filly that had to be stitched after a horrible accident and after a whole year of trying to gain her trust again, he had to call time, as she would still try to bite and kick at every given opportunity. Her new owner is over the moon with her even after been fully informed about the problems, but its obviously taken a change of scenery to settle her down - sorry no resolution for your problem, but it's not nice having to dodge feet, and the feeling that you need to make a will before going into the stable isnt nice either!

 

[jhoward]

if the nastyness happened for no reason my thoughts would be different, but there is generally something behind it,
the front end starting concerns me.

 

[Queenbee]

I know a mare who does this, pure hissy fit, absolutely nothing neurological about her condition. JH, I can't really advise on this on, you're a good, experienced horsewoman, and I like you have no experience of such extreme behaviour. Just wanted to post to say sorry your horse is behaving like this and I hope you get to the bottom of it x

 

[SusieT]

My thought would be that he needs to go out and have a rest. He sounds sour. Why were you sat beside a horse that is known to be difficult? Or kids anywhere near him? How much work is he doing? He could probably do with going out with a herd where he'll chill, be part of the discipline structure. It also sounds like he may have had too much discipline and be reacting to protect himself.

 

[MrsMozart]

I know of two that, on the ground in different situations, are 'nasty'.

One will go at you over the door, but is fine once you're the same side of the door as him.

The other one, on the groud is just scary. Both ends will go for you.

The first is managed by staying out of reach.

The second is handled by a very experienced lady who is blinking quick on her feet!

Both horses under saddle are excellent.

Dizz gets nasty if you give her an inch, she'll take your head off. I've had two sessions in her stable with a schooling whip, effectively lunging her and getting he moving over where and when she was asked. She's now chilled and soft, but if I let her push me around at all, we'll be back to where we were.

 

[cobmum]

Personally i would take him off all hard feed and stop all work and let him relax and chill for a few weeks. Slowly introduce work and appropriate feed and see how you get on, you may find there is a feed or pain trigger.

There are / have been many cases of horses that are nasty and dangerous and not all are due to neuro problems sometimes it make take a change of owner or change of livery yard to end the nastiness, unfortunatley sometimes it takes a bullet.

Also prehaps consider gastric ulcers?

 

[jeeve]

My chap who is very sweet, gets very nasty when in pain/discomfort. He had an abcess in foot, despite a few vet /farrier visits they were unable to relieve it. It eventually came out at top of foot. He has been quite sore, and went for me a couple of times with teeth, when i went to catch him for his treatment.

Same with another gelding we bought, he was really nasty when we got him home. The girl that owned him had ridden him really hard the day we picked him up, and by the next morning he was lame, and grumpy, also had a kidney infection. once all that sorted he was fine.

However, you chap could also just be a bit sour - not enjoying things as much and he is telling you the only way he knows how. I would just keep an eye on him for signs that he is not right /sore, but also be careful - do not take him for granted, and do try and make things fun with him, and not just hard work.

Have also known mares with hormonal issues that send them quite unbalanced/stallion like behaviour and need very exp. treatment/op to correct. But not aware of this in geldings. I have heard of issues with teeth/ problems with head/head injuries causing this kind of extreme behaviour - again pain related.

Both my grumpy geldings (if they are having an off day) will lay down even while being ridden , one to roll - because he gets a compulsion to roll - I think it is like stress relief for him, the other because when he does not want to do something he just lays down - neither throw themselves down and get up- but hard to know unless you are there to see what you describe.

Giving some time out and taking him off all but hay - allowing him to unwind - may help as has been suggested. If he is sore or sour a little time could just be what he needs.

 

[jhoward]

I know a mare who does this, pure hissy fit, absolutely nothing neurological about her condition. JH, I can't really advise on this on, you're a good, experienced horsewoman, and I like you have no experience of such extreme behaviour. Just wanted to post to say sorry your horse is behaving like this and I hope you get to the bottom of it x

thanks mate, i honestly dont think he is nasty, just that im possibley missing something.. but hes a big horse to be acting this way.

My thought would be that he needs to go out and have a rest. He sounds sour. Why were you sat beside a horse that is known to be difficult? Or kids anywhere near him? How much work is he doing? He could probably do with going out with a herd where he'll chill, be part of the discipline structure. It also sounds like he may have had too much discipline and be reacting to protect himself.

he is not broken. so is in no work, the accident re the front leg was a couple of months ago and has caused issues else where, so un broken, since the front end biting, hes been doing a bit of in hand work, and being led out. unfortunatly the osteo told me not to put a saddle any where near him.

any way deffinatly not sour.

he is not in general a nasty horse, i often crash out with him, if i lay against him he crashes out too.

the kid was accessing other stables, a perfectly normal thing to do it, it happens everyday.

re discaplin, possible he was from a show producer, and had know ground problems, leading.. etc

put it this way, it took me over an hour to get some rains over his head the first time i tried, and he was scared, we shook and got the squits.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Might sound really stupid and might be far too dangerous to try, but could you try getting to a safe place and then act like it didn't happen, no telling off at all? Try just positive reinforcement? Maybe the whip has left the horse feeling like it needs to defend itself? Or if it's just a case of the horse refusing to do something like "move over" stand still and wait for a slight movement on the horses own accord and the minute the hind quarters move over, reward the action? You may find that pure kindness and quiet praise gets you somewhere?
We had a collie who would want you to stroke her one min and the next trying to savage you, it was her way of saying ok stop now! We thought she was "just bad" until we opened her op for a pyometra and all her female parts were really underdeveloped, obviously her "make up" was a bit screwed!... I don't really believe any animal is truly bad. Perhaps it is neurological, perhaps the horse gets a stabbing pain in it's head or somewhere and takes it out on you, who knows.... I wouldn't be into trying to win a battle, you will never win a battle over a half ton animal, they choose not to kill you, so just stay safe!

 

[Cortez]

Maybe he's just not very bright?

 

[jhoward]

Personally i would take him off all hard feed and stop all work and let him relax and chill for a few weeks. Slowly introduce work and appropriate feed and see how you get on, you may find there is a feed or pain trigger.

There are / have been many cases of horses that are nasty and dangerous and not all are due to neuro problems sometimes it make take a change of owner or change of livery yard to end the nastiness, unfortunatley sometimes it takes a bullet.

Also prehaps consider gastric ulcers?

he has marksway conditioning chaff, thats it, and at the moment hay as he is in a lot, hes been on the same food for 8 months.

he gets to go out, but weather wise it may be for only an hour, but hes doing something in hand monst days even if its 5 mins up the road and back.

yes i have thought about ulcers,. vet thinks based on his history they are unlikley.

we have moved in the past couplde of months.

a bullet.. this is a horse the vet valued at 8k. and not to mention my horse of a life time.

fecking hell ive not even got him broken yet!

 

[jhoward]

Maybe he's just not very bright?

 

[jhoward]

Might sound really stupid and might be far too dangerous to try, but could you try getting to a safe place and then act like it didn't happen, no telling off at all? Try just positive reinforcement? Maybe the whip has left the horse feeling like it needs to defend itself? Or if it's just a case of the horse refusing to do something like "move over" stand still and wait for a slight movement on the horses own accord and the minute the hind quarters move over, reward the action? You may find that pure kindness and quiet praise gets you somewhere?
We had a collie who would want you to stroke her one min and the next trying to savage you, it was her way of saying ok stop now! We thought she was "just bad" until we opened her op for a pyometra and all her female parts were really underdeveloped, obviously her "make up" was a bit screwed!... I don't really believe any animal is truly bad. Perhaps it is neurological, perhaps the horse gets a stabbing pain in it's head or somewhere and takes it out on you, who knows.... I wouldn't be into trying to win a battle, you will never win a battle over a half ton animal, they choose not to kill you, so just stay safe!

yes have done, hes a drama queen in general, and i think cut late, which could explaine a few things, but before he gets a rollocking for anything, it is done the softley way to ensure he 100 percents knows what is expected, to much pressure on him gets a negitive reaction.

 

[Queenbee]

he has marksway conditioning chaff, thats it, and at the moment hay as he is in a lot, hes been on the same food for 8 months.

he gets to go out, but weather wise it may be for only an hour, but hes doing something in hand monst days even if its 5 mins up the road and back.

yes i have thought about ulcers,. vet thinks based on his history they are unlikley.

we have moved in the past couplde of months.

a bullet.. this is a horse the vet valued at 8k. and not to mention my horse of a life time.

fecking hell ive not even got him broken yet!

JH, has the behaviour been since arriving at the new yard?

 

[jhoward]

JH, has the behaviour been since arriving at the new yard?

the front end yes, the rest no, he has always been the same with the back legs, as savage as tonight has never happened before.

 

[Littlelegs]

Are you 100% sure he's gelded? An old boss had a stallion who they'd had from a foal who got gradually worse between 4 & 6. I knew him when he was about 10 & very good, provided you asked & didn't tell. But he had done damage in his younger days to anyone he perceived as giving even a hint of domineering body language, let alone facing him down.
What's he like with other horses? If one puts him in his place does he accept it or go back for more? That might show if its physical or mental. And personally I'd have him out all day too, with an older mare to put him in his place regularly.

 

[Foxhunter49]

it is hard to say what to do with a horse like this, I have had a few through my hands and all were never easy.
One thought is that I would lay this horse down, force him to the ground using Endospink method of what he calls 'Tapping'
This puts the horse in a vulnerable position and makes it realise that it has to submit and give in. When down they are waiting for something terrible to happen to them and when it doesn't they are totally different when allowed to get up.

It is not something to be done lightly but it does work.

 

[thehorsephotographer]

I don't agree, as someone said earlier I think, that some horses are just nasty. I think all horses are born as a clean slate and what they become is a result of what happens to them from poor handling to health issues.

I have known similar behaviour to what you describe only once before and it turned out as I think someone else mentioned that the horse had a brain tumour - which made it unstable in it's behaviour and emotions.

That said I would cut out altogether any sign of a polos or feeding anything by the hand if he's biting. In my book biting = never feed from the hand. To me he sounds frightened of something. I'd be trying to spend more time with him - even if it's a bit at a time - building up his trust so that he lets you take his fear away. Perhaps just spend more time grooming him and giving him a nice massage if he will stand intitially whilst talking to him all the time.

There has to be a reason for his erratic behaviour I would say the difficult bit it to identify what the problem is. How is he with being touched around his head/ears?

 

[Moomin1]

Just a pedantic question - but you say "you went and got him a polo" after he had shown good behaviour. What was the point in that? Or do you mean you gave him a polo straight away?

It sounds to me like his handling has gone drastically wrong somewhere in his life and he is very defensive. Either that or there is a neurological problem going on - which the vet surely should want to rule out?

 

[Queenbee]

Just a pedantic question - but you say "you went and got him a polo" after he had shown good behaviour. What was the point in that? Or do you mean you gave him a polo straight away?

It sounds to me like his handling has gone drastically wrong somewhere in his life and he is very defensive. Either that or there is a neurological problem going on - which the vet surely should want to rule out?

TBH, Ive met JH in the flesh and seen her horses, I would say her handling is not in question here. I would as someone else said be interested in the difference between how he behaves towards humans and how he behaves towards horses, is he a git with both species or is it just humans that illicit this response OP

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I've got no idea what to do but here's a situation that happened to me and maybe its the same with your horse...

Basically a horse that was beaten by a past owner and was known to be nasty with current owner biting her on the arm as lead along, she went into field to catch it with a whip but never hit it. Horse was always fine with me, it approached me in the field and was always friendly, moved out of my space with a gentle push.

Until the day it was near mine and a third. The third went to bite mine, I waved my hands to shoo it away, the nasty horse thought I was waving hands at him and backed off pulling evil face. That was enough for him to take against me. If I went in the field he'd come running from wherever, even the other side of field, ears back, snaking head, mouth open. I'd have to hit with headcollar to avoid bite and shoo away, dodging kick.

I'd then approach him, cautiously, praising every time he stopped the evil face and made a big fuss of him when I got to his head. I wouldn't let him push me around but tried everything to make friends with him, for months. Didn't work, he hated me and that was that. Gave up when he came upto me all sweetness one day then lunged at the very last minute grabbed me round the throat and nearly killed me. Settled for carrying a whip and not letting him anywhere near me.

Do you think your situation is similar? I'm thinking maybe yours has taken against you because of the wound cleaning, if he has a past of beatings maybe? Because wound cleaning hurts, I mean.

 

[jhoward]

Fox hunter, I do know what you are talking about.

littlelegs, yes deffinatly, although could of only been cut 18 months..

re his behaviour with others, he is a total softy, ive never seen him kick or put his ears back at another horse.

he is very insecure and gets attatched far to easy.
thanks qb.

sugarandspice.
I have no idea, the overal vengence behind yesterdays attack was by my standards dangerous. ive never backed off to the point ive got out of a stable.

re past beatings, very possible, certainly has something done to him, he is funny around his head and things like washing.. couldnt get near him with a hose pipe a year ago..

i mentioned his previous home.. they used a chain in the mouth to turn him out as he was such a handful (they had to stop using a chifney as when he went to take off in the field they couldnt get it off quick enough)

 

[muffinmunsh]

Hm, sounds like testosterone to me. Can you have levels checked? Maybe something was left behind?

 

[vieshot]

Good on you for sticking it out and trying to fix this horse. I can openly admit that I wouldn't have had the same patience and last nights events would have been the last straw for me....and for him.

 

[Topaz Tiger]

I've got a mare, she was badly treated as a yearling, rescued, but then never turned out with other horses, so developed no real social skills.

I got her, turned her out with other horses, but it was like she didn't really know how to act. She can't bear them in her rather large personal space.

She's an alpha mare, can be quite grumpy and aggressive on the ground, but fine when ridden and better when she's worked.

She's gone for me on more that one occasion, inc kicking me because I stratched her in the 'wrong' place and double barrelling me in the stable because I told her off for nipping me.

She absolutely hates being told off and takes it very badly.

Now nearly 5 years later, we've got to a good place. I've moved to a new yard, where she is happier, think people wound her up in the old yard and she'd lunge over the door to them. If she gets a bit sharp now I warn her, or give her a light slap on the bottom and that's enough.

She's def wary of people particularly men, but for the main, less is more with her, as far as reprimanding her. Having said that, I have also gone into the stable with the shavings fork, when she double barrelled and caught me on the chest....

I liken her to an autistic child, she just didnt understand the right way to behave and her reactions were at times completely inappropriate to the situation.

To ride, she is fabulous, she loves her work and going out competing.

Good luck, hope you sort it out.