Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
Just after some practical advise on how best to avoid a horse tying up as we think this is what happened to Pidge 2 weeks ago rather than a pulled muscle?
Horse tying up, experiences and how to deal with it needed please?
- Thread starter Pidgeon
- Start date
Nic
Well-Known Member
Sucks doesn't it, big hugs.
I take it he didn't have bloods done at the time?
Where & when did it happen, what was he doing at the time, what is he fed, is he stabled or out 24/7?
What did he do to make you think he had tied up?
Nx
I take it he didn't have bloods done at the time?
Where & when did it happen, what was he doing at the time, what is he fed, is he stabled or out 24/7?
What did he do to make you think he had tied up?
Nx
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
Friday 5th June hot day.
He's currently out 24/7 with haylage in the field overnight.
Brought in from field, fed small breakfast of handful of top spec cool and condition nuts, handful of alpha a oil and top spec feed balancer, NAF D-Tox and Newmarket Joint Supplement.
Loaded lorry.
Groomed and booted up and loaded (He'd pooed 7 times small ones - and weed once in this time - gets very excited when he knows he's going out to play).
40mins on box to get to XC, quick warm up and then did a 1930m course by stringing a couple of fences together at a time then chill and then finished with a 500m run of about 8 fences.
Cooled off on way back to lorry, BP and hats off, cooling wash prepared, untacked and washed off liberally, thin thermatex on and went to walk him round and he was like going for a wee but not and hopping lame on his near hind.
Rung vets who met us back at the yard. Vet thought it was a pulled muscle higher up on his hindquarters as couldnt find anything else so no bloods taken. Prescribed 5 days box rest, with walk out am and pm and metacam.
Sound Saturday morning and after
Turned him out Monday morning as he was doing his nut in the box!
Had him thermal imaged on Tuesday night as wanted to know which muscle and how much damage done as to bringing him back into work, scan showed nothing at all not even a bruised sole if hed picked up a large stone. So popped on him schooled him in walk and trot and then hacked out at a walk.
Been in full work since and touch wood ok.
Did a HT on Saturday and cooled him down for 10-15mins before un-tacking (had loosened noseband and girth) and then sponging off lightly as was paranoid about it happening again. Gave him his electrolytes in his breakfast rather than his tea to see if that would make a difference and he actually drank at the event too which he never normally does (only has them when done hard work and its hot).
I think it may well have been caused by me not giving him enough of a cool down before sloshing lots of cooling wash over him and for that Ill never forgive myself or the fact he was a tad dehydrated. Im normally so good at lots of cool down and then un-tack and wash off I dont really know why I was so careless on that day.
So because of being paranoid now Im just after some tips to make sure it doesnt happen again?
He's currently out 24/7 with haylage in the field overnight.
Brought in from field, fed small breakfast of handful of top spec cool and condition nuts, handful of alpha a oil and top spec feed balancer, NAF D-Tox and Newmarket Joint Supplement.
Loaded lorry.
Groomed and booted up and loaded (He'd pooed 7 times small ones - and weed once in this time - gets very excited when he knows he's going out to play).
40mins on box to get to XC, quick warm up and then did a 1930m course by stringing a couple of fences together at a time then chill and then finished with a 500m run of about 8 fences.
Cooled off on way back to lorry, BP and hats off, cooling wash prepared, untacked and washed off liberally, thin thermatex on and went to walk him round and he was like going for a wee but not and hopping lame on his near hind.
Rung vets who met us back at the yard. Vet thought it was a pulled muscle higher up on his hindquarters as couldnt find anything else so no bloods taken. Prescribed 5 days box rest, with walk out am and pm and metacam.
Sound Saturday morning and after
Turned him out Monday morning as he was doing his nut in the box!
Had him thermal imaged on Tuesday night as wanted to know which muscle and how much damage done as to bringing him back into work, scan showed nothing at all not even a bruised sole if hed picked up a large stone. So popped on him schooled him in walk and trot and then hacked out at a walk.
Been in full work since and touch wood ok.
Did a HT on Saturday and cooled him down for 10-15mins before un-tacking (had loosened noseband and girth) and then sponging off lightly as was paranoid about it happening again. Gave him his electrolytes in his breakfast rather than his tea to see if that would make a difference and he actually drank at the event too which he never normally does (only has them when done hard work and its hot).
I think it may well have been caused by me not giving him enough of a cool down before sloshing lots of cooling wash over him and for that Ill never forgive myself or the fact he was a tad dehydrated. Im normally so good at lots of cool down and then un-tack and wash off I dont really know why I was so careless on that day.
So because of being paranoid now Im just after some tips to make sure it doesnt happen again?
Nic
Well-Known Member
Pm'd you, but wouldn't think it was the cooling wash x
OrangeEmpire
Well-Known Member
That's really frustrating - poor you and Pidge!
I don't know much about what causes it but I do know that Selenium is thought to be useful as a healing aid and a preventative. NAF do it in a big tub...
Hope you get to the bottom of it!
I don't know much about what causes it but I do know that Selenium is thought to be useful as a healing aid and a preventative. NAF do it in a big tub...
Hope you get to the bottom of it!
MysteryGirl
Well-Known Member
It's hard to know if your horse actually tied up or not. When mine does she is so stiff behind she can barely walk, and it affects both back legs. She also has a very sore back (just behind saddle area and over quarters) after a serious attack.
The steps we have taken to avoid future bouts include:
No days off - tying up usually occurs the day after a rest day, when my girl is back competing she won't even have a day off after an event (to be on the safe side.) If you do give yours a day off then do not give any hard feed.
Feed - Low starch feed. Mine is on ERS pellets. Hay rather than haylege as starch levels are usually lower. Ensure that feed relates to work, the less work the less feed.
Supplements - Electrolytes (every day regardless of work) and tye-guard daily.
Turn-out - as much as possible, to keep muscles in use but relaxed.
Warm-up and cool-down - Ensure all muscles are properly warmed-up and relaxed again after work.
I hope for your sake it wasn't azoturia because even with a good management programme it can be hard to avoid attacks, mine had 2 isolated incidents last season and one really bad one this year at the end of March - it took weeks for her bloods to return to normal and during this time she was on box rest and then turnout. She is now in full work, well nearly as still not galloping, and is entered at Buckminster on the 12th July - so that'll be 3 and a half months without competing.
The steps we have taken to avoid future bouts include:
No days off - tying up usually occurs the day after a rest day, when my girl is back competing she won't even have a day off after an event (to be on the safe side.) If you do give yours a day off then do not give any hard feed.
Feed - Low starch feed. Mine is on ERS pellets. Hay rather than haylege as starch levels are usually lower. Ensure that feed relates to work, the less work the less feed.
Supplements - Electrolytes (every day regardless of work) and tye-guard daily.
Turn-out - as much as possible, to keep muscles in use but relaxed.
Warm-up and cool-down - Ensure all muscles are properly warmed-up and relaxed again after work.
I hope for your sake it wasn't azoturia because even with a good management programme it can be hard to avoid attacks, mine had 2 isolated incidents last season and one really bad one this year at the end of March - it took weeks for her bloods to return to normal and during this time she was on box rest and then turnout. She is now in full work, well nearly as still not galloping, and is entered at Buckminster on the 12th July - so that'll be 3 and a half months without competing.
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
He was very reluctant to walk TBH but was better after walking for several strides. he'd had the day off before as I was doing the elections but doesn't have many days off TBH.
Should I be getting back in touch with my vets to say I think he'd perhaps tyed up and getting bloods done then?
Should I be getting back in touch with my vets to say I think he'd perhaps tyed up and getting bloods done then?
MysteryGirl
Well-Known Member
I'd say his bloods would most likely appear normal now. If he was stiff for just a few strides and then improved it sounds less likely to be azoturia, or if so then a relatively mild bout. If it happens again (and hopefully it won't) then call the vet straight away and get them to do bloods and then you'll know for sure.
Firewell
Well-Known Member
My old horse suffered from ERS (Azotoria)
I would echo what mystery girl says but will add, If you ever do need to give him a day off you need to bring him back to work slowly, i.e walking out for 20 mins one day, walking a bit of trot the next. Just increase work steadily.
When competeing we would try and turn him out before boxing him so he can warm his muscles up in the field, we would take care warming up and down ect.
Also the more attacks they have the more prone they are... so if your horse did indeed have an attack he will be more prone to another these following few months, the longer he goes without one, the less likely he will be to get another if that makes sense!
I would echo what mystery girl says but will add, If you ever do need to give him a day off you need to bring him back to work slowly, i.e walking out for 20 mins one day, walking a bit of trot the next. Just increase work steadily.
When competeing we would try and turn him out before boxing him so he can warm his muscles up in the field, we would take care warming up and down ect.
Also the more attacks they have the more prone they are... so if your horse did indeed have an attack he will be more prone to another these following few months, the longer he goes without one, the less likely he will be to get another if that makes sense!
Firewell
Well-Known Member
Just read your reply. If he got better after a few strides it may not be tying up because they get worse and worse the more you try to move them!
If it is a full blow attack they really get uncomfortable the more you try to move them and it can cause lasting damage to the muscles. The best things to do is keep them still and keep them warm untill the vet arrives.
Hopefully its not azotoria though!
If it is a full blow attack they really get uncomfortable the more you try to move them and it can cause lasting damage to the muscles. The best things to do is keep them still and keep them warm untill the vet arrives.
Hopefully its not azotoria though!
Festive_Felicitations
Well-Known Member
The stiffness and going to pee but not actually, does sound like a very mild case of tying up, but I have never heard of it effecting 1 leg only, so may he just had cramp?
My experiences with tying up: (my advice is similar to Mystery Girl).
Tying-up is also called Monday Morning disease and Autozoria some good info on google.
Signs he/she might be going to tie-up: Profusive sweating (more than seems reasonable for the work load), excessive blowing/ laboured breath, and sudden stiffness behind. We have found that if you spot the signs early enough we can walk (keep moving forwrd no matter how slowly, do not halt!) Beau through his attacks so that he doesn't actuall lock up.
If he/she does lock up forcing them to move can damage the muscles so don't try and force them. Keep the horse warm, provide lots of fresh water and hay, if you can get some electrolytes in all the better. If distressed you can give bute. The period of time they can't move varies, we have had 8hrs to 15 min but everytime he has loosened up and been able to move again in a matter of 3-5 min its like magic
You can get the vet out if you like, but unless it is a really serius case (pee turns red), there is not much they can do.
The severity of attacks vary considerably the longest my horse has ever had to have off is a week.
Work - no days off, if you can't ride make sure that that day
he gets no hard feed (grain/pellets etc) and if there is a lot of grass around feed poorer quality / no hay.
- Do not do fast/ hard work after a day off, do a long steady hack with a decent amount of trotting in the middle and long walking warm up / cool off sessions at each end.
- long warm up / cool off sessions every day are important as tying up is generally considered to be linked to a build up of lactic acid in the muscles due to inefficent removal.
Feed - We feed a mixture of good quality lucerne and oaten hay so that we can give him the bulk but balance the protien with his work load.
- we feed a grain mix and rice bran it, but the amount he gets
is directly proportional to the amount of work he did that
day.
- we found that Barley triggered Beau off and so now
avoid all feeds with it in any significant percentage.
- electrolytes daily, if you can find some that have a decent
% of Selenium I dont think you need to worry about a tying-up supplement (we used one and he tied up any way, careful management seems to work better).
- we do feed a teaspoonful of Epsom salts once a week as a
laxative to help clear things out.
Turn out as much as possible, after an event or hard days work we leave him out at night so that he can keep moving
around.
We (Mum and I) found that keeping a diary of his work and feed helped us ID factors that led to him tying up (i.e. the barley).
Erm that was rather long, hope it was helpful...
My experiences with tying up: (my advice is similar to Mystery Girl).
Tying-up is also called Monday Morning disease and Autozoria some good info on google.
Signs he/she might be going to tie-up: Profusive sweating (more than seems reasonable for the work load), excessive blowing/ laboured breath, and sudden stiffness behind. We have found that if you spot the signs early enough we can walk (keep moving forwrd no matter how slowly, do not halt!) Beau through his attacks so that he doesn't actuall lock up.
If he/she does lock up forcing them to move can damage the muscles so don't try and force them. Keep the horse warm, provide lots of fresh water and hay, if you can get some electrolytes in all the better. If distressed you can give bute. The period of time they can't move varies, we have had 8hrs to 15 min but everytime he has loosened up and been able to move again in a matter of 3-5 min its like magic
You can get the vet out if you like, but unless it is a really serius case (pee turns red), there is not much they can do.
The severity of attacks vary considerably the longest my horse has ever had to have off is a week.
Work - no days off, if you can't ride make sure that that day
he gets no hard feed (grain/pellets etc) and if there is a lot of grass around feed poorer quality / no hay.
- Do not do fast/ hard work after a day off, do a long steady hack with a decent amount of trotting in the middle and long walking warm up / cool off sessions at each end.
- long warm up / cool off sessions every day are important as tying up is generally considered to be linked to a build up of lactic acid in the muscles due to inefficent removal.
Feed - We feed a mixture of good quality lucerne and oaten hay so that we can give him the bulk but balance the protien with his work load.
- we feed a grain mix and rice bran it, but the amount he gets
is directly proportional to the amount of work he did that
day.
- we found that Barley triggered Beau off and so now
avoid all feeds with it in any significant percentage.
- electrolytes daily, if you can find some that have a decent
% of Selenium I dont think you need to worry about a tying-up supplement (we used one and he tied up any way, careful management seems to work better).
- we do feed a teaspoonful of Epsom salts once a week as a
laxative to help clear things out.
Turn out as much as possible, after an event or hard days work we leave him out at night so that he can keep moving
around.
We (Mum and I) found that keeping a diary of his work and feed helped us ID factors that led to him tying up (i.e. the barley).
Erm that was rather long, hope it was helpful...
Festive_Felicitations
Well-Known Member
Probably should add, having read a few other posts, you will get conflicting advice becasue the exact symptoms vary as much the actual causes.
There is no one medical casue for Azotoria several different conditions seem to lead to similar symptoms.
If it happens again (and I hope it doesn't) you will have to work out what works best for you...
There is no one medical casue for Azotoria several different conditions seem to lead to similar symptoms.
If it happens again (and I hope it doesn't) you will have to work out what works best for you...
GDB
Well-Known Member
Be very thorough on warming up and down, try to keep exercise routine... no leaving for days on end then going flat out. Take of Haylage if not working hard, but unlimite Hay is fine. Watch the intake of carrots and apples ( too much sugar) Feed Equine America Tyguard daily as a prevention.
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
He was taking very small strides with his near hind say about 6-8" each stride but slowly better as he got a bit further on. Got him on the box about 1pm and the vet was with us about 3pm where he took him out of his stable to see what he was like and he was better than at the XC but still reluctant to walk properly
Thanks will do if it happens again.
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
Thanks, so no more days off then
must admit his day off usually consists of 40minutes on the horsewalker as we try and ride each day
Right so be more proactive and touch wood the longer he goes the less likely he is to have another attack, thanks
Right so be more proactive and touch wood the longer he goes the less likely he is to have another attack, thanks
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
very helpful thanks
so do you think I've done any damage to his muscles then by making him walk round? then had to load him, and unload and get him to his box when back at the yard
there were no signs beforehand that you mentioned, I mean he was sweaty but then it was 11.30am - 1.00pm and hot and we were enjoying ourselves XC..... so no more than expected. He tends to sweat more from excitement than exertion if that makes sense?
His wee was a very slight cloudy colour but then it does vary from clear to slightly cloudy normally.
there were no signs beforehand that you mentioned, I mean he was sweaty but then it was 11.30am - 1.00pm and hot and we were enjoying ourselves XC..... so no more than expected. He tends to sweat more from excitement than exertion if that makes sense?
His wee was a very slight cloudy colour but then it does vary from clear to slightly cloudy normally.
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
I know I think it was me not cooling him down long enough, hangs head in shame
His normal exercise regime for a week is as follows:
1 flatwork lesson works very hard
1 HT or ODE or XC schooling session at the weekend
1 40minutes on horse walker
4 x mix of hacking and schooling, or schooling or jumping
He's 17hh ISH and weighs 643kg and is eventing fit.
Has 3 carrots and an apple in his tea feed.
His normal exercise regime for a week is as follows:
1 flatwork lesson works very hard
1 HT or ODE or XC schooling session at the weekend
1 40minutes on horse walker
4 x mix of hacking and schooling, or schooling or jumping
He's 17hh ISH and weighs 643kg and is eventing fit.
Has 3 carrots and an apple in his tea feed.
royal
Well-Known Member
My horse has suffered from tying up terribly, with her worst attack leading to 2 months off work....its awful and can be hard to manage.
I agree with what others have said, particularly the turnout but just wanted to let you know that another thing that can bring it on is excessive grass!! I didn't know this and my mares 2nd attack was bought on due to this...she was out full time in a 10 acre field with about 7 other horses and unfortunately, the pasture was just too rich and big and bought on another attack shortly after a half hour schooling session - attack and cause were both diagosed by the vet...so whilst as much t/o as poss is best, it is an idea to take care with how much grass they have access to.
Really hope it doesn't happen again...but if it does and its bad, the vet can give muscle relaxants, bute and Sedolin (expands the vessels)...made a massive improvement in my horses comfort after just 20 mins.
I agree with what others have said, particularly the turnout but just wanted to let you know that another thing that can bring it on is excessive grass!! I didn't know this and my mares 2nd attack was bought on due to this...she was out full time in a 10 acre field with about 7 other horses and unfortunately, the pasture was just too rich and big and bought on another attack shortly after a half hour schooling session - attack and cause were both diagosed by the vet...so whilst as much t/o as poss is best, it is an idea to take care with how much grass they have access to.
Really hope it doesn't happen again...but if it does and its bad, the vet can give muscle relaxants, bute and Sedolin (expands the vessels)...made a massive improvement in my horses comfort after just 20 mins.
Festive_Felicitations
Well-Known Member
I would not worry about muscle damage if he was just stiff, from what vets have said you can only casue damage if your force them to move once they have completley locked up (i.e. unable to move).
The whole sweating thing is a bit hard to spot, we have only noticed it once or twice at the end of trails when he would not normally be sweating.
The pee turning red is a sign of muscle damage as it is caused by stuff (4yrs of biology is obviously paying off) released by the break down of muscle tissue.
The whole sweating thing is a bit hard to spot, we have only noticed it once or twice at the end of trails when he would not normally be sweating.
The pee turning red is a sign of muscle damage as it is caused by stuff (4yrs of biology is obviously paying off) released by the break down of muscle tissue.
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
thanks Pidge has as much turn out as possible as he also has mild stringhalt and hock spavin
and touch wood there isn't a huge amount of grass in our field, lots and lots of white clover though!
Pidgeon
Well-Known Member
Oh thank god for that
well his wee was pretty normal colour so looks like no muscle damage then
thanks again for your advise
well his wee was pretty normal colour so looks like no muscle damage then