horse unhappy 2b mounted...& dismounted.

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aradiagreen

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My 8yr old arab x mare was started last autumn. She has no fear of mounting blocks & will stand quietly by them. But if you go to put your foot in the stirrup she'll kick out or swing her rear into you & knock you off! Her ears go back & she's clearly saying she's unhappy. She doesn't like being girthed either. However, she's ok with a leg up or if someone else is there to equalise the weight in the stirrups or if the blocks high enough that you can swing your leg over without using the stirrup. She's usually fine to be ridden though she used to nap & buck when we started. If you work her for 30min she then has no issue with mounting. When you lean forwards to dismount her ears go back & she lifts her head,tensing her neck. Tho if you dismount by putting your foot over the pommel & sliding off forwards she is better. Her back & saddle has been checked twice each all ok. My instructor wonders if she's uncomfortable in her tummy or something. Otherwise she's in great shape. We don't think she has ulcers (my vet said she'd loose condition). Does anyone have any idea? It seems 2b the pull of the weight in the stirrup. Finally I get on lightly & quietly & always have!
 
I suspect saddle, and I know you have had it checked but the behaviour is so typical of a saddle that is hurting. Has the person who checked it actually checked inside the saddle to see if there are any nails sticking in her, or sharp points on the tree which is the case in so many saddles, yes it may fit, but there can be lumps and bumps which hurt.
 
she sounds cold backed to me, i had a kwpn that was similar although was fine with girth and dismount he just needed to be worked in a little before mounting and couldnt be mounted from the floor (its not good for their backs to be mounted from the floor anyway) was never an issue for us really as it was easily worked around as long as you never had to dismount while hacking becaise you wouldnt be able to get back on lol
your girl does sound very uncomfortable though bless her and i would personally be gettin vet out to scope for ulcers and do a check over just to be sure
 
Bosworth said:
I suspect saddle, and I know you have had it checked but the behaviour is so typical of a saddle that is hurting. Has the person who checked it actually checked inside the saddle to see if there are any nails sticking in her, or sharp points on the tree which is the case in so many saddles, yes it may fit, but there can be lumps and bumps which hurt.
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I agree with this. There seems to be a problem with pressure from the front of the saddle. What is she like when you mount from the mounting block without a saddle?
 
It does sound as though the saddle is the problem, either it is twisting slightly as you mount or something is digging into her.
 
I had exactly this situation and we tested the ulcer pressure points which showed sensitivity, so I have put my horse on a 4 week omeprazole regime. I bought direct from Abler. We are only on week 2, so have not yet tested for improvement.
 
Has the saddle got points billets and are you using them? If so, it can cause the points (the downward "arm" of the tree each side of the front arch) to dig in and cause pain
 
Thanks everyone. Like I said she's had her back checked by 2 different ladies. She was originally ridden in a barefoot treeless & had a similar attitude including dismounting too. I had a new saddle fitted (Kent & masters cob gp). I can't feel any unusual bits sticking out. I will get her checked again by someone else. If you work her she is then happy to be mounted (tho not disunited! ). I'm going 2 have a very high mounting block made so I can swing my leg over without using the stirrup. I've never tried bareback as she has a scary buck in her!
 
YasandCrystal said:
I had exactly this situation and we tested the ulcer pressure points which showed sensitivity, so I have put my horse on a 4 week omeprazole regime. I bought direct from Abler. We are only on week 2, so have not yet tested for improvement.
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Where are these points? I wondered hind gut ulcers a while back as she dislikes being girthed. But my vet says she's healthy & it's unlikely. Plus that scoping itself can CAUSE ulcers. I don't want her to be scoped. An old friend suggested the faecal test but then that seemed to have mixed opinions. My vets adamant she would have lost condition with ulcers plus she lives out 24/7.
 
Get a vet out - 'back ladies' don't come with X-ray eyes and the vet will be able to eliminate ulcers as a cause too.
 
My mare is very similar. If you have had physio and saddler check her back and saddle, another thing that really helped my mare was a supplement from hack up bespoke. Since going on it my horse is happy to be girthed up and mounted and along with regular physio and saddle checks we no longer have mounting issues
 
aradiagreen said:
Where are these points? I wondered hind gut ulcers a while back as she dislikes being girthed. But my vet says she's healthy & it's unlikely. Plus that scoping itself can CAUSE ulcers. I don't want her to be scoped. An old friend suggested the faecal test but then that seemed to have mixed opinions. My vets adamant she would have lost condition with ulcers plus she lives out 24/7.
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That's not correct, I saw a mare in good condition last week with all the symptoms, girthy, grumpy and windsucking. At the moment she is out 24/7 but I don't know her back history. All his horses are fed lots of carrots [free food], Their feet are flat and unbalanced, but the owner is not into real horsemanship, only natural cowpony horsemanship. One of the youngsters is kept in 24/7 as aparently it once had mud fever, it now gets a barefoot friendly diet, but not a proper life.
Im not sure why scoping should cause ulcers, maybe another vet would have a different idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4
 
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pickwickayr said:
My mare is very similar. If you have had physio and saddler check her back and saddle, another thing that really helped my mare was a supplement from hack up bespoke. Since going on it my horse is happy to be girthed up and mounted and along with regular physio and saddle checks we no longer have mounting issues
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What is in this wonderful potion, not being sceptical, but there must be a reason why the horse has responded.
 
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amymay said:
How is she to mount and dismount bare back?
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I've never tried bareback as she has done a fair bronco impression before. She'll stand happily at block just in halter to be leaned over as she knows I won't try to mount. I have another saddle fitter coming in a week to check her saddle.
 
My two pence worth: she could have a back/shoulder/withers problem as she shows signs of pain. You may have to x ray her to get a better idea, can be costly enough too. She may have some old injury, sounds a bit like that to me.
 
You say she is also bucking when ridden so what with the mounting issues as well I would say she is having discomfort from something, if you have had teeth back and saddle checked next step is a vet, mind you I had two different saddle fitters tell me my saddle was too wide, but what they both failed to see was the horse had muscle damage behind the shoulder I could see he had changed shape but didn't know how to fix it, so maybe get someone different to look at the saddle.
 
aradiagreen said:
Where are these points? I wondered hind gut ulcers a while back as she dislikes being girthed. But my vet says she's healthy & it's unlikely. Plus that scoping itself can CAUSE ulcers. I don't want her to be scoped. An old friend suggested the faecal test but then that seemed to have mixed opinions. My vets adamant she would have lost condition with ulcers plus she lives out 24/7.
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Here is a youtube showing the ulcer points for testing

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4

That's not true that your horse would have lost condition. My fatty Dales definately had ulcers caused by an accident. He is not a stressy type and he lives out 24/7 so not the typical ulcer candidate. I think vets like us can make sweeping generalisations. A good body worker could test the points for you if you are not confident yourself, but sensitivity around the girth, wither. Sensitivity to the whip, wood chewing, dislike of the leg aids, tension are all indicators too.
My Dales also bucked for England and was hyper sensitive to the whip, lashing out with his hinds at the hint of a whip near him.
My WB had low grade ulcers years ago and he has just been showing a reluctance to be mounted and sensitivity at the ulcer points, hence I have started him on omeprazole and a prebiotic now. I expect to see a change by week 3.
 
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Well I'm so angry with myself and my original saddle fitter! I got a highly recommended saddle fitter/physio in,even though she had to travel a long way. She fits saddles using the balance saddles system which was recommended to me. Anyway my lovely new saddle I've had for 6 months does not and never has fitted copper. Now copper had bucked and napped before this saddle & on the day it was fitted she got worse and worse through the session. The original lady called me back a few days after she sold it to me & I told her copper had done a crazed bronco impression the first time I tried to use it. I should have got her back in! Instead I've given copper endless time off as I struggled with my nerves & hating knowing she hated me riding her. I've had 2 different back people out (nothing wrong) & dentist & vet. Training lessons going back 2 basics at the mounting block. Hundreds of pounds spent. Basically saddles far too narrow for her, totally the wrong shape & dug in front & back without touching her in the middle. Gullet too narrow too. & copper is a little bit slimmer now not fatter. Saddler said never to put it on her again. Would be agony. She's built up the wrong muscles in her neck from the pain (picked up by back people). Will take weeks for her to learn that a saddle doesn't mean agony.

The lady did the bendy wire thing over her withers & then took the shape of the saddle & the difference was truly shocking. I hate confrontation & I'm dreading calling original fitter. I know she'll say I shouldve called her out sooner but this saddle never would've fitted so I quite honestly don't trust her. She told me copper hardly had any weight bearing length in her back yet this lady said she had a short back but it wasn't a problem at all & much more space than first lady. How can someone get it so wrong? It cost me £900 for saddle & leathers. I'll probably get £650 if I'm lucky for the saddle back.

It's a leather Kent and masters cob gp with changeable gullet. So I got my cob's saddle out which is exactly the same make and model just older & it fitted her! The saddles side by side are completely different - gullet on second is much wider, bulges under seat are wife and flat rather than pointy. I can't believe they'd be so different. It just shows you can't buy a saddle from eBay etc and expect it to be a certain size or shape!

I bought the original saddle 6 months ago so doubt I have any hold over original saddler. Fitter/physio doesn't want 2 get involved so didnt want me to use her name. I sat in a saddle that fitted & immediately realised how 'perched' I'd been before.

I'm so upset I've been hurting my mare all this time though tbh the saddle is like new as I've hardly used it as I felt so bad for her & lost my confidence a bit. At least it's something I can now work on & I do have a saddle I can use...as long as no one wants to ride my cob at the same time. I need to sell original saddle & I've got a barefoot cheyenne I can sell to get enough money for a new saddle.
 
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Bless you, I'm so pleased that you have finally got the right person out to check you pony!! It did sounds like a saddle issue when I first read your post.

I can sympathise with you! I spent a grand on a saddle for my boy! I've had 5 different people out to fit it to him! He went from a wide gullet down to medium wide, then to medium, back up with medium wide and now back to square one into wide (which is what i put in it when I first bought the saddle)

There were so many people out there that just didn't understand the cair technology and how to correctly adjust the saddle. Also how the girth straps worked, so my poor boy wasn't able to move his big shoulders and started getting really reluctant to move forward, to the point that he'd rear up if I put my leg on!!
 
Well done you for getting to the bottom of it. It's a nightmare with fitters isn't it - how does anyone know who to trust with what effectively is their horse's future. There is a lot on YouTube about fitting - look up the videos by Jochen Schleese, he has developed it into a real science and now his fitters call themselves ergonomists to emphasis the fact that they have had a lot of training, both in saddles and detailed anatomy.
I'm sorry, and I do know there are good ones, but years of experience MAKING saddles does not equip a person to FIT them well. (My hobby horse, I too have spent a fortune unnecessarily thanks to "fitters" who couldn't)
 
I'm glad you've sorted out your problem. I'd always believe a horses opinion of the fit of a saddle over whatever any saddle fitter says.
 
I stupidly trusted thst she'd fitted saddles for over 20yrs & registered with Master Saddlers that she knew what she was doing. I said at the start there seemed to be alot of pressure at the back. Should've trusted myself. Second lady was a lavinia mitchell saddle fitter. I rate the heather moffett fitters too.
 
Sorry to hear about everything that has happened - keep working with your little mare, and give her time to come round to the idea that saddles can actually be painless.

At least you've got to the bottom of the problem now!
 
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I thought I knew the basics of saddle fitting tbh. I can tell if it's too long or too low/high over withers etc. I was wrong. & I trusted a professional over my gut. I've hardly ridden my mare in last 6 months. At least now we can move forwards. Thankyou everyone for your support, input & kind words. It can only get better!
 
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