Horse with sleep deprivation

[SammyWeston1]

Hi everyone! I’ve just joined this forum and I’m hoping someone might be able to help or have had a similar experience. I got my horse just under a year ago and since she came I’ve literally never seen her lay down. A couple of days after she arrived, I looked out and saw her falling in the field, it was when we had a heat wave so I thought it was the heat and brought her in quickly to cool down. After that she had these spells of falling over very occasionally, our vet said it was likely sleep deprivation and she was just nervous about being in a new place. It got better, or Atleast less noticeable, over the winter but there was still no signs that she’d ever lay. Her stable was never disturbed and no matter what time I looked out she was never laying down.
In the last couple of months she’s got a LOT worse and falls atleast 30 times a day and is definitely not laying. She rolls perfectly fine and can get up and down easily, she also doesn’t seem in any distress or as if she’s particular anxious at night. I’ve recently had a woman come out who trained with Monty Roberts to see what she thought, we’re currently trying to teach her to lay in the hopes we can make it a positive experience that she’ll want to do on her own. I’m also having someone come out to check her over and am going to start her on Bute. I’m just wondering if anybody has had something similar and had it go on for so long?! And especially if you were able to resolve it? It breaks my heart every time I watch her, we have 4 other horses and she’s out with 1 who she adores. I literally can’t work out what is effecting her so much and I’m so worried she’s going to hurt herself! Sorry this went on so long! Any help welcomed, I’ve read just about every article online at this point! ?

 

[Red-1]

Was she on a busier yard before? If your's is a private place with 4 horses, she may simply be used to a larger heard?

Is she always in at night, or out? Mine is a lounge lizard in the stable but doesn't usually lie down in the field. Or, if she is out at night, maybe one companion isn't enough for her.

Being as this is likely to finish her off, or at least is severely compromising her life quality, I would at least put her on livery at a different yard, in different circumstances, to see if that changes.

If she now lives at your own place, it may sadly be that she is not the horse for your place.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Is she standing up then sleeping and whilst asleep she falls ?

 

[Frano]

It may be a good idea to discuss this with a specialist horse vet.If she keeps falling down in the field there may be an underlying health issue.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I agree with Frano. I have known to two horses that did this and it was unfortunately a medical condition.
Sorry to say.

 

[Miszeemare]

Try this video by Warwick Schiller on youtube - its interesting viewing about horses and sleep. Hope it links ok.

 

[Red-1]

Try this video by Warwick Schiller on youtube - its interesting viewing about horses and sleep. Hope it links ok.

Yes, interesting video about sleep. But, an observation about the man...

I wish I believed him that he had changed. Sadly, I subjected my horse to a clinic of his in 2014, and I found that it was hard, unyielding and full of hype for selling. I would have left the first day, but the Youtube videos had been so compelling that I really wanted to believe he was as he looked on the video.

I would take some convincing to believe that this is a real turnaround, and not just that many other people found the clinics to be as I did, so he is re-packaging.

Talented man, but for many of us on that clinic, not talented at making relationships with the horses, or talented at making the horses happy.

I do hope it is a real change, but I won't be subjecting any horse of mine to him in a hurry!

I prefer the feel of a Mark Rashid clinic for observations, or for more up and at it performance wise, a Manuela McLean. Both of the latter were transformative to us, not devastating.

 

[Miszeemare]

I believe he’s had a lot of counselling in the recent past. I came across him looking for some pointers on my highly anxious horse but I know what you mean about some of these “natural” horsemen. I accompanied a friend to a Buck Brannaman clinic a few years ago and was a bit ? at the spur marks/holes left in the demo horse’s side and I would not have been happy if I was that horse’s owner.

 

[meleeka]

Do the bute trial you are planning and then reassess. If she’s happy with her field companions is probably pain related somewhere. I had two like it, both veterans, one was new to me. Shes happy as anything now, but the herd dynamics changed and the previous boss of the field started doing it too. I haven’t seen him do it for a while now so hopefully sorted itself out. (I also put them on a joint supplement In case they were feeling stiff). There’s a lot of info on google. The phrase to google is “sleep apnea horses”.

 

[Sir barnaby]

My daughter-in-law had a pony would just fall over even when ridden, diagnosed by vet as sleep apnea so she stopped riding him and retired him as he would just fall over at random times this came on when he was about 12yrs old but she kept him till he was in his twenties when he had liver problems and had to be PTS so can be managed, maybe get second opinion from different vet.

 

[TotalMadgeness]

Sorry to say but this is probably pain related or neurological. Try another vet / specialist.

 

[Floofball]

I’ve had experience of 3. One couldn’t live out 24/7, you had to bring him in a couple of times a week so he could get his head down for some proper rem sleep. The other 2 were both elderly mares with pain/discomfort that would improve massively on Bute as they felt happier to lie down and rest, so the bute trail is definitely a good thing to try ??

 

[Goldenstar]

Trying the Bute is a good idea ,pain can stop horses lying down .

As is finding a better vet .

 

[meleeka]

I don’t understand the vet bashing? The horse was new and the vet said most likely unsettled. I think that’s a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Have I missed the bit where the vet has seen the horse again?

 

[SammyWeston1]

I don’t understand the vet bashing? The horse was new and the vet said most likely unsettled. I think that’s a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Have I missed the bit where the vet has seen the horse again?

I definitely wasn’t bashing the vet? We agreed that this was the most likely which is why we didn’t explore any other avenues at the time. She’s got worse since lockdown started so the vet has only been able to see her digitally but said from the videos I sent of her falling that he was 100% sure it was sleep deprivation

 

[SammyWeston1]

Hi everyone,
Thank you so much for your replies! I just thought I’d respond to a few things that people had said (I hope you can all see this ok, I’m so new ?!)

I actually have a feeling that she was doing this before she came. We got her from a reputable dealer but she was out in a big field away from her home and in her previous home she was also away from the house, so I find it very unlikely that if she had been doing it they would have seen it as (like I said) at the beginning it was so far and few between!

I have retired her now as obviously it’s not fair to be riding her when she’s exhausted and is probably unsafe for me also!

She is stabled in the winter and out in the summer and she won’t lay down in either places. She isn’t stressed in her stable (she makes it very obvious if she is worried about something) but she just stands with her head over the door the whole time.

we have also tried her in bigger nerds, she was with three other mares for a while and that didn’t make a difference.

I have contacted an amazing physio near me to look over her, although I’m worried that this wasn’t the original problem but could be a contributing factor now!? Also waiting to hear back from the vet about getting a bute trial sorted, which I’m really hopeful for!

I should have said at the beginning, she’s 19 so obviously an older girl in terms of joint problems etc.

I wonder if anyone has seen horses with sleep deprivation who can roll happily and are great when ridden but who don’t want to lay down for pain reasons? Could it be they seize up?

sorry this has been so rambly, she occupies my brain about 90% of the time now!!

 

[SammyWeston1]

I’ve had experience of 3. One couldn’t live out 24/7, you had to bring him in a couple of times a week so he could get his head down for some proper rem sleep. The other 2 were both elderly mares with pain/discomfort that would improve massively on Bute as they felt happier to lie down and rest, so the bute trail is definitely a good thing to try ??

Thank you so much for your reply, gives me hope to think I can help her! Were your mates happy to roll when they wouldn’t lay down? This is the only thing that makes me think it might not be pain as she does it so easily!

 

[SammyWeston1]

Do the bute trial you are planning and then reassess. If she’s happy with her field companions is probably pain related somewhere. I had two like it, both veterans, one was new to me. Shes happy as anything now, but the herd dynamics changed and the previous boss of the field started doing it too. I haven’t seen him do it for a while now so hopefully sorted itself out. (I also put them on a joint supplement In case they were feeling stiff). There’s a lot of info on google. The phrase to google is “sleep apnea horses”.

Brilliant, thank you!

 

[SammyWeston1]

Is she standing up then sleeping and whilst asleep she falls ?

Yes, she stands for a bit and then slowly drops her hair and loses control of her legs and either nearly falls to the ground or falls to her knees When she wakes up, she doesn’t seem to know that anything has happened

 

[Gingerwitch]

Hi everyone,
Thank you so much for your replies! I just thought I’d respond to a few things that people had said (I hope you can all see this ok, I’m so new ?!)

I actually have a feeling that she was doing this before she came. We got her from a reputable dealer but she was out in a big field away from her home and in her previous home she was also away from the house, so I find it very unlikely that if she had been doing it they would have seen it as (like I said) at the beginning it was so far and few between!

I have retired her now as obviously it’s not fair to be riding her when she’s exhausted and is probably unsafe for me also!

She is stabled in the winter and out in the summer and she won’t lay down in either places. She isn’t stressed in her stable (she makes it very obvious if she is worried about something) but she just stands with her head over the door the whole time.

we have also tried her in bigger nerds, she was with three other mares for a while and that didn’t make a difference.

I have contacted an amazing physio near me to look over her, although I’m worried that this wasn’t the original problem but could be a contributing factor now!? Also waiting to hear back from the vet about getting a bute trial sorted, which I’m really hopeful for!

I should have said at the beginning, she’s 19 so obviously an older girl in terms of joint problems etc.

I wonder if anyone has seen horses with sleep deprivation who can roll happily and are great when ridden but who don’t want to lay down for pain reasons? Could it be they seize up?

sorry this has been so rambly, she occupies my brain about 90% of the time now!!

I really do not like to be the voice of doom but if she rides out and rolls I fear this could be a type of apnoea. Hope you get it sorted it is not nice to see a horse be asleep and fall over. The look of bemusement is heart wrenching to watch. My Gingerwitch had this it broke me, I even wanted to fit a hoist system so she would be safe but I lost her anyway.

 

[meleeka]

I definitely wasn’t bashing the vet? We agreed that this was the most likely which is why we didn’t explore any other avenues at the time. She’s got worse since lockdown started so the vet has only been able to see her digitally but said from the videos I sent of her falling that he was 100% sure it was sleep deprivation

You weren’t but a couple of other posters were.

As is finding a better vet .

Sorry to say but this is probably pain related or neurological. Try another vet / specialist.

Is she falling when she’s dozing? If that’s the only time I think you’d be ok to gently exercise her. Not doing anything with her is possibly adding to her stiffness and compounding the problem. A bute trial will tell you pretty quickly if pain is an issue.

eta - cross posted with you. Sleep apnea isn’t the same as narcolepsy which is when they randomly fall asleep. In that situation it would be unsafe to ride, but with sleep apnea they only fall when they doze so shouldn’t be unsafe all the time they are fully awake.

 

[Floofball]

Thank you so much for your reply, gives me hope to think I can help her! Were your mates happy to roll when they wouldn’t lay down? This is the only thing that makes me think it might not be pain as she does it so easily!

They weren’t my mares but different friends on the different yards at the time. Both would roll when out in the field, the older one less so and stopped all together eventually (part of the quality of life assessment to determine the right time to puts) Both would not sleep in the stable and rarely in the field, sometimes they stayed down for a snooze if they fell but didn’t lie down to sleep. Pain relief did make a difference though and both would lie down to rest when comfortable enough. It may be worth some discomfort to get down and have a good roll, scratch knowing they’ll be getting straight back up? Think it has something to do with being prey animals and not being confident they could get up and take flight if needed. Or they just get too uncomfortable/stiff if laid down for any length of time ?‍

 

[Horsekaren]

My boy had done this for 3 years, he rolls very often and very occasionally I may spot him laying down ( perhaps twice a year)
At first we thought all the usual things like settling into a new home, not a fan of his bedding, being on watch ect

vets kind of didn’t really care as it’s not really that uncommon.
3 years later I finally got a diagnosis, it was all to do with his neck. His spinal cord pinched along his neck vertebrae, blocking the signal of his brain trying to lock his legs and the legs receiving the message. He is neurological, nothing can be done about it, he is now retired and happy at grass but he is still sleep deprived, all be it happy but I know one day just being at grass will end up being too much for him.
That is just my experience but I really do wonder how many sleep deprived horses that don’t respond to bute are neurological. They always stumble as there head starts to lower, yes they are going into a deeper sleep but is the position of the neck actually what’s blocking the message ?

hope you get to the bottom of it!

 

[SammyWeston1]

You weren’t but a couple of other posters were.


Is she falling when she’s dozing? If that’s the only time I think you’d be ok to gently exercise her. Not doing anything with her is possibly adding to her stiffness and compounding the problem. A bute trial will tell you pretty quickly if pain is an issue.

eta - cross posted with you. Sleep apnea isn’t the same as narcolepsy which is when they randomly fall asleep. In that situation it would be unsafe to ride, but with sleep apnea they only fall when they doze so shouldn’t be unsafe all the time they are fully awake.

ah yes, sorry! I have to say my vet wasn’t particularly helpful as he basically said nothing could be done and didn’t even suggest trying bute. I spoke to another vet today and she said it’s definitely worth trying so I’m going to pick it up soon!

yeah, I don’t think it’s narcolepsy as I can wake her if she’s starting to drift (not when she’s falling into REM sleep and is falling though).
I think she’d likely be safe to ride but I feel like it’s a bit unfair for her if she’s exhausted. Im going to start taking her for walks in hand to hopefully improve mobility a little!
Thank you for your reply ?

 

[SammyWeston1]

They weren’t my mares but different friends on the different yards at the time. Both would roll when out in the field, the older one less so and stopped all together eventually (part of the quality of life assessment to determine the right time to puts) Both would not sleep in the stable and rarely in the field, sometimes they stayed down for a snooze if they fell but didn’t lie down to sleep. Pain relief did make a difference though and both would lie down to rest when comfortable enough. It may be worth some discomfort to get down and have a good roll, scratch knowing they’ll be getting straight back up? Think it has something to do with being prey animals and not being confident they could get up and take flight if needed. Or they just get too uncomfortable/stiff if laid down for any length of time ?‍

Thank you so much for this, it’s surprisingly hard to find people personal experiences and not just articles/studies about it. I’m prepared for the worst but hoping the best! Going to pick up some bute soon so fingers crossed it will make a difference! ?

 

[Suzanne97]

SammyWeston1, your post could of been me writing that, the exact same thing happened to me last July when I got my pony! everything you have written is the same, how are you getting on with your horse? I would be interested to know as I'm going through the same.

 

[meleeka]

SammyWeston1, your post could of been me writing that, the exact same thing happened to me last July when I got my pony! everything you have written is the same, how are you getting on with your horse? I would be interested to know as I'm going through the same.

I’d recommend a bute trial. Ive just tried it with my older gelding and he’s finally laying down! He’s always rolled ok and got up and is quite happy to canter round the field, so it would be easy to say he wasn’t in pain, but i’ve now come to the conclusion he must have been.

 

[brighteyes]

I really do not like to be the voice of doom but if she rides out and rolls I fear this could be a type of apnoea. Hope you get it sorted it is not nice to see a horse be asleep and fall over. The look of bemusement is heart wrenching to watch. My Gingerwitch had this it broke me, I even wanted to fit a hoist system so she would be safe but I lost her anyway.

Isn't this narcolepsy? Isn't sleep apnoea longer than normal breathing cessation then sudden restart?

 

[Suzanne97]

Meleeka I am just in the process of trying the Bute again although having trouble getting her to take it this time so maybe I'll have to try Danilon, I have done the Bute before but no change so maybe not pain related! she's a lot older than I thought in her 20's I think! just feel so sad seeing her so dead on her feet and buckling and swaying! I'm starting to think maybe the kindest thing is to let her go.

 

[Suzanne97]

brighteyes that's what the vet has said, she thinks its narcolepsy.