Horse wont go on the bit in trot?????

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HorseyStar

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Hello

i have a welsh d that has a total attitude problem...!! and terrible work etchic / bad trainable attitude

bought him over a yr ago to bring on as an allrounder...

had 8 dressage lessons, goes lovely in walk, most of the time correctly and lightly on the bit, sensitive (an spooky!)....but when asking for trot head up like a lama and off he goes full speed welsh trot styleee!!

after all our lessons even the dressage instructor seemed a bit puzzled :confused:

had 3 other exp riders on his back as i was starting to think maybe im a crap rider? and getting down about it, as it happens there was no chance he was working from behind for them either...he loves to avoid working and would love to trail around like a motorbike on the forehand :(

i have had in the last yr 5 vet visits, all of which nothing shown, altho he did have locking stifle mild as he was still growing, but apparently no pain related and luckily thankgod he seems to have grown out of that thankgod....also had dentist out, teeth done, 10 diff bits, saddle fitter, 2 new saddles plus a new dressage saddle, new bridles tack, 2 diff physios and a massage for 1 hr last week, one physio said its pure attitude and the other said he has on eof the best backs she has seen in a long time??...TWO diff professional trainers, one of which said ' be careful when out with him alone as he is extremely sharp' and warned me to never get 'to complacent with him' lol....he likes bucking and rodeing sometimes, becoming less now he knows he cant get me off, had a broncoing tantrum the other day when warming up on loose rein in canter....

i got a bit peed of with the trot / lama thing the other day and decided that i was having my way and he was to keep trotting around the menege untill he decided to give in and accept the bit contact, anyway after inside leg to outside rein, and massaging the reins alternatively after 13 laps he SURPRISED me and dropped his head and went straight onto the bit in trot and it felt AMAZING i instantly softened my hands and stopped the wiggles as a reward and we went in harmony and rhythm around the menege for 2 laps :) i then slowed the pace and cooled down and left on a good note, day after tried same method, 20 laps around still like a lama and i just got out of hospital so was extremely tired and gave up?? im thinking this is what its a case of?? he kinda won and i shudda kept goign untill he stopped resisting and then ended the session i was just far far to tired... is there something im missing or am i on the right lines here..?? dont wanna pay for anymore dressage lessons untill we get the trot on the bit / respect extablished...

any ideas? or is this just a game of patience and time, repitition and consistency?? im a confident rider (have to be with him as he's a right handful!!) quirky, spooky, opinionated, strongwilled oh and stubborn!! :eek: p.s did i mention that he is Welsh?? ha ha

help guys.....................

pics of the lord himself:

http://s803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/stacieloup/
 
same :( goes on the bit in walk happily accepts the contact....tried the following:

Chambon - just resists it and puts up with the pressure
Side reins - as above
bungee - as above
running reins - slight improvements
Pessoa - broncoes, rodeos etc untill he gets the back end from of his arse :eek:
double lunging / long lines - bolts off and hates them anywhere near his back end

also dressage instructor told me she doesnt agree with lunging and correct riding is more effective?? as lunging is creating his anxiousness and also just teaching him to run? :mad:

maybe iv made the mistake of ending a lunging session before he has 'given' or dropped and accepted the bit...after all if i lunge him, he just goes like a lama and i then end the session what has he learnt?? but equally when he's sweating his arse off i kinda feel bad carrying on, then again i suppose the more i do it and only end session when he gives each time in theory it shud become quicker and quicker shouldnt it???

i dont know it sure is a weird one.... x
 
I spent ages with Bob the "not a cob" trying to get him to soften and listen to me. In the end I got a bit annoyed and took him for a hack . If he wanted to poke his nose and look at the scenery ,I would give him all the scenery he could ever want. We returned to the yard after 25 miles , and he was a different horse. He still has a long way to go but he does listen now. I used no gadgets or violence, just perseverance .
 
yea that sounds about right actually altho he is super sensitive to leg aids some days he will totally pretend to be dead of the leg etc even tho frwd going will ignore and not even go into trot at all...but equally he seems to have quite a lot of stamina...and i suppose with trial and error i am starting to realise that he takes and needs a LOT of working in....like a lot of warming up and exercise before he starts to settle into his work, only thing is by this time im cream crackered!!! ha ha ha

he sure is a funny cooky though, and i defo know for sure now after all the diff field of professionals its not pain, and after that lovely 2 lap trot on the bit the other day i know he can do it, suppose its just over praising when he does and a patience game...i could sooo easily pull his head in and be nasty etc, but he's my little man and i havent got it in me to do 'incorrectly' just for the sake of fashion....i have to do things right and i want to do dressage with him and want him to eventually be extremely light, as light as he is in walk...

just hope we get there one day, this last yr has been a bit mad with him getting thru all his bucking phases etc! lol....my 2.5 yr old Welsh 'chesnut' filly is 20 times better behaved than him iv just started walking her out and long reining her and OMG i am in shock at what an angel she is, and how much she loves her work, after starting work with her it has defo highlighted the difference between training a horse that likes ppl and likes work to one that would rather be in a field with his mates munching grass!!! :p

anymore ideas anyone??
 
Have you tried trotting very slowly with inside flexion until he softens,not very correct but he sounds like you need to try another route.Just ride with very quiet leg to inside rein ,picking up outside once he is giving to you.
Spirals in and out, being very soft and not asking for much activity can help,once you have the softness then you can start to ask for more impulsion.
 
If you have been massaging the reins on his mouth anyway and not bothered by pressure in front then mabye try draw reins, especially if foward going? I know loads of people are anti them but IMO its better than sawing on the mouth and you can drop the pressure once then soften and accept them. If not happy with draw reins then mabye a market harbour or something like that as a training aid :)
 
Does he understand how to give to pressure generally? By which I mean - does he have good lateral flexion? Does he move off your leg eg around the forehand or leg yield? Can you move him around easily on the ground? Horses naturally move into pressure as a survival mechanism and it sounds like might not yet be a reflex with your guy to give to pressure rather than to push against it.

If he is giving to pressure happily, my instructor would probably be asking how he is doing on the training scale. Does he have rhythm and an even tempo in all three gaits (especially trot as this is where you said the problem is)? Do you find he tends to speed up or slow down when you perform school movements like turns, circles and serpentines? If the tempo is regular, how supple is he? By that I mean the lateral (side to side) flexion. The better this is, the easier it should be for him to come onto the bit. Then you have contact. I am working on this one with my horse at the moment (she also struggles with taking the contact, she's had pain in the past from her spavins which have been treated now but she's worried it's going to hurt). When she pushes up and back with her neck and hollows I have to push forward with my stomach muscles still keeping my waist back (if that makes sense) and keep my hands absolutely still (in trot anyway) as any tiny mistakes in my hands spoil any contact we get.

Mine is also a welshie and a mare so quite, shall we say 'sensitive'. I changed her bit to a myler hanging cheek which made a huge difference as she gets very worried about any pressure on her tongue. I don't do nosebands.

I have to say I completely agree with your instructor about correct riding rather than lunging being the way to go. I don't ever lunge although I do do groundwork.
 
yes as a rule of thumb i always work on ground work with the lateral giving to pressure and always start with a roper alter then onto the same exercise with the bit, i basically do it as tho teaching a 1 rein stop from the ground and release as soon as he has given his nose to me etc etc...lateral work actually is quite impressive...again in walk!! lol i wudnt dare try with it in trot...but i would say to get him onto the contact and happily playing with the bit it did take some lateral work in walk to get him to accept the contact....a lot of flexion etc its soooo hard when your training something that isnt a school master as like 'unbalanced' said you have to keep your hands totally still and i sure no what you mean by the slightest wrong movement of your hand and you loose their contact....

i suppose some horses are cut out to work on the contact and are more willing, maybe it is a previous remembered pain from his past etc?

just frustrating as when he did it for 2 laps the other day it felt great and a lot more comfy at which im sure it did for him too...maybe a few more sessions like that and he will start to click what is the better option...i kind of wanted to make the lama trot unmcomfy for him and once he given to me make it all nice and soft and comfy so he wud choose this option to work in? that was my theory or thinkign when trying to train him....

i do think 'unbalanced' that you have a valid point about rhythym as the more i think about it, he is v supple actually and instructor said very naturally balanced etc but when asked to trot he doesnt have balance and rushes off all guns blazing, and if im pushing him into the bridle as ppl say your meant to if he hasnt quite gathered how to give to pressure in trot what am i actually pushing him into?? probs nothing?! which will create more rushing unbalance and out of rhythm, maybe tomoz morn i will work on slowing my rise down and getting a nice beat, inside flexion and lots or circles and transitions...before all thsi i think i will give him one really good warm up to get the fizz out of him and get him listening..

its been getting me so frustrated but suppose got to think if he did it perfect for all of 2 mins the other day then at least i know it is possible for us both to achieve.... x
 
I wouldn't be sawing or using draw reins, what does he do if you ask him to take the contact down? Id try to get a forward trot long and low first, warm up in that for around 15 mins then start to pick up a light contact. Change the contact all session, going from long and loose to elastic then back again, all the time forward and working a different exercise each lap of the school. Loads of circles and leg yielding.
 
Have a look at the Balance International website. My Welsh had some definite saddling issues when I got him (for free because of them), and since being in a Balance saddle he is very different. He is still very sharp, but works very nicely.
 
HorseyStar said:
also dressage instructor told me she doesnt agree with lunging and correct riding is more effective?? as lunging is creating his anxiousness and also just teaching him to run? :mad:
Click to expand...

????? well I suppose as with anything horsey everyone has their own views. Personally I think lunging is a very good way for a horse to establish its balance without the riders interferance, it's also very good for you to be able to see if the horse is tracking up and working through properly from the ground. I would do a weekly lunge session with a chambon or de gogue to get your horse to learn to stretch down, it's only fighting itself rather than you if he resists. Once he softens and lowers lots of praise by mouth. Lots of transition work too. I've worked on a fair few yards over the years and the only one that didn't use lunging regularly was the hunting yard, where it didn't matter if the horse worked effectively and properly or not.
 
Rather than trotting round endlessly waiting for him to "give in" try doing transitions to make him carry himself and use himself. You need to do lots and lots, aim for no more than three strides in any pace until he starts to lift his back and carry himself. Then allow him to go a little further in trot to "test" the balance, but come back to walk before he gets unbalanced and sticks his head in the air.

Each time he sticks his head in the air and rushes off you need to come back to walk and rebalance then ask for trot again aiming to get your walks shorter and shorter.

You will probably find you need to trot a fair bit slower than you are used to, he is probably rushing out of his natural rhythm and unblanacing himself. You need to help him slow down and find his balance.

I find that lots of transtitions works with even the most obstinate horse (riding school know all the tricks to avoid work types).

The other thing you could try is bending and flexing to the inside and outside for about three strides each way and then swapping to try and get him to soften. Also lots of changes of direction and shapes in the school, serpantines, shallow loops, figures of eight, circles of different sizes etc etc to keep him interested and balanced and avoid him rushing off with his head in the air. As soon as he rushes half halt and do a figure of some sort, then when he is listening allow him to go large and then again when he rushes do another figure etc.

There is not point trotting laps waiting for him to give in. He doesn't know what you are asking so will not understand what to do to please you. He will continue rushing round with his head in the air getting more and more unbalanced the longer you continue.

Don't forget if you always do what you have always done before you will always get back what you have got back before.

If he really still doesn't get it discuss with your instructor using a harbridge/market harbrough/draw reins to give him a bit more guidence. But I think the transtitions and bending together will get you there!
 
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