Horses/animals as our 'equals'- I think not... Teeny tiny rant.

PapaFrita

PapaFrita

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I don't mean to upset anyone with this, but I read someone on HHO saying that animals were equal to humans and I thought this was totally wrong. I don't even think all animals are equal amongst themselves (sorry, I just don't)
OK, hear me out. I ADORE my animals. I truly do, I love them with all my heart and definitely prefer them to a LOT of humans, including some members of my own family (I'm sure I'm not alone!
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HOWEVER, they are not my equals. If animals WERE my equals, I could not eat meat (cannibalism) or wear leather. Farming would be slavery so I couldn't wear wool, or silk and I certainly couldn't eat any dairy products. How could I possibly keep a pet? Surely that would be slavery as well.
They are not my equals NOT because I consider them inferior. On the contrary; I can think of lots of people who do not have the qualities that my animals have. HOWEVER, PF and A and Flora (cat) and Ulla (dog) cannot look after themselves the way a human can. They are vulnerable and I feel it my duty to protect them and look out for them. I don't feel the same way about wild animals. If I see a hare or a toad or a fox flattened on the road, I don't feel as bad about it as if I see a dog or cat; someone's pet, someone's friend. I would swat a fly, or a cockroach, but I wouldn't kill a snake (perhaps because I suspect the snake would get me first!) SO, it reallly gets on my nerves when people say that animals are our equals in every way, because they're NOT. Unless you're a PETA nut and a vegan, you can't say that, because you would not keep a person as a pet and if animals were truly equal to humans... you follow my train of thought?
Anyhow, I just wanted to get that off my chest. I expect everyone will be hugely underwhelmed and this post will have slid off the front page in a few minutes.
 
I've seen it a lot.
In fact it happened when i first got my dog bryn.
He was a rescue when we got him he was shy and a bit jumpy but once he realized that he could get away with being top dog he totally took over the house and became a very naughty dog.
A year of training later and i was back on top!
My house
My bed
My food.
You just share it!
Thats what we had stuck up in the house to remind me to be top dog.
 
I think we are one of the few still awake papafrita!

I agree animals are not our equals intellectually. I guess if you are a Buuddist then spititually it may be another matter and I don't criticise other peoples beliefs and religions - each to their own. I eat meat myself and obviously (!!!) would not eat human meat so in that respect I myself do not consider animals the equal of a human. This does not mean I cannot show great compassion for animals - more compassion than for humans really as they are not equipted to cope with the human world. Animals are different and if we truly love them then we need to treat them in a species specific way and cater for their needs as animals. To do anything else is disrespecting them and as Katie has said can lead to behaviour problems and a very unhappy animal.

However, although I agree my cats are not my or (the majority) of humans intellectual equals, in terms of MY CATS then I love them more than anything else in the world and would put their needs before the needs of any of my friends. It sounds terrible but it is true. My cats will be with me for my entire life. They will never walk out on me, stop loving me or betray me. I cannot say th same for any human in my life so for me to survive - and I need love to survive just like anyone else - then my cats and their happiness are my biggest priority. But then I am just a mad old cat lady
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I think we are one of the few still awake papafrita!

I agree animals are not our equals intellectually. I guess if you are a Buuddist then spititually it may be another matter and I don't criticise other peoples beliefs and religions - each to their own. I eat meat myself and obviously (!!!) would not eat human meat so in that respect I myself do not consider animals the equal of a human. This does not mean I cannot show great compassion for animals - more compassion than for humans really as they are not equipted to cope with the human world. Animals are different and if we truly love them then we need to treat them in a species specific way and cater for their needs as animals. To do anything else is disrespecting them and as Katie has said can lead to behaviour problems and a very unhappy animal.

However, although I agree my cats are not my or (the majority) of humans intellectual equals, in terms of MY CATS then I love them more than anything else in the world and would put their needs before the needs of any of my friends. It sounds terrible but it is true. My cats will be with me for my entire life. They will never walk out on me, stop loving me or betray me. I cannot say th same for any human in my life so for me to survive - and I need love to survive just like anyone else - then my cats and their happiness are my biggest priority. But then I am just a mad old cat lady
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I agree i would put my animals before anyone. I love my doglet very much and i know that to love and care for him i need to provide him with the things he needs.
Food, water, shelter, exercise, kisses, cuddles and a pack leader.

My friends can provide for them selves and as much as i love them my animals will always come first because they can't provide for them selves.
 
I agree in many respects, but you do have one thing wrong. Dogs, cats and horses are MORE than capable of looking after and feeding themselves, given the right environment. You obviously could not set a horse free in a town or city, but in its natural environment, it would find food water and shelter with ease, the same with dogs and cats, they would revert to the wild very quickly.

In this respect animals are vastly superior to most modern humans, who, without money and shops cannot survive, although this is exactly what our ancient ancestors did.
 
I agree with with this point Neil; otherwise, I'm totally with you PapaFrita. My view is that we choose to keep our animals in ways that benefit us and, as such, we have a duty of care to them. I do confess to being one of those who thinks of my animals rather more highly than many of the people in my life
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I do agree with you although I myself do not eat meat (since being very young so not due to ethical reasons as i didn't understand at the time). I do however feel that us, as a human race take things for granted and some people's opinions that we are so much more superior than animals to the extent they don't think twice about injuring/killing something I do find very upsetting.

I think if more people saw or were made aware or the process involved in getting the meat to their plate they may reconsider as to whether cheap meats etc and a need to eat meats every day is actually necessary.

I personally could never kill another animal intentionally for me to eat. If people can then fair dos and I think it would be preferable if people did have to do this - they may then gain more respect for the animals in question.

I have to say i do find myself getting more upset when I hear of animal cruelty/suffering than i do of humans - is that wrong? I don't know, I think it is because the animal relies on us and doesn't have a voice or a way of asking for help. Mind you I feel the same whenever young children are involved in abuse case etc too - much for the same reasons - they are defenceless.

I think domesticated animals do rely on us although some are perfectly capable of reverting to their 'wild ways' if required but we also rely on them. They make us happy, can help take stresses away and bring people together and i think they also, without us knowing sometimes, teach us an awful lot!
 
I know what you mean but in some ways they are our equals in that they should be well treated, not harmed etc. When I was working at the shelter so many people justified their mistreating of their animals by saying "well they're only animals" or similar
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CM on the same basis then do you not credit animals with any emotions???

My old cat used to sit on our garden fence (attached to next dor neighbours garden) and dangle her paw down and antagonise the dog next door, you're not telling me that was a purely evolutionary response?? She was being an antagonistic little s**t, awesome cat tho!!!

On the topic of OP completely agree with PF
 
humans like to think of animals as non reasoning, non emotional beings, and not 'equal' to ourselves because then it makes it far easier to live with the fact that we torture them in the name of science, abuse them in the name of convenience food and push them to extinction due to our recklessness with the environment.

helps us all sleep at night.
 
I think thats a bit of an unfair generalisation, I am completely for animal testing in the name of science, not obviously makeup.

Personally i would rather see murders, pedophiles and such like being used but unfortunately 'apparently' they have human rights too. So yes i would rather use animals and i suspect anyone who has ever had theirs, or someone they care about, life saved because of a treatment that has been tested on animals would feel the same. and i don't have to feel guilty or picture them as not equal to do so.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion but don't tar everyone else with the same brush, self preservation is an evolutionary trait, i would say life saving drugs are a kin to eating
 
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I think thats a bit of an unfair generalisation, I am completely for animal testing in the name of science, not obviously makeup.

Personally i would rather see murders, pedophiles and such like being used but unfortunately 'apparently' they have human rights too. So yes i would rather use animals and i suspect anyone who has ever had theirs, or someone they care about, life saved because of a treatment that has been tested on animals would feel the same. and i don't have to feel guilty or picture them as not equal to do so.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion but don't tar everyone else with the same brush, self preservation is an evolutionary trait, i would say life saving drugs are a kin to eating

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I think it is a very accurate generalisation and I stand by it.

Life is life - whether in a cat, or dog or man. There is no difference there between a cat or a man. The idea of difference is a human conception for man's own advantage. ~Sri Aurobindo

The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men. ~Alice Walker

It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions. ~Mark Twain

Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored. ~Alice Walker

Vivisection is a social evil because if it advances human knowledge, it does so at the expense of human character. ~George Bernard Shaw

I abhor vivisection with my whole soul. All the scientific discoveries stained with innocent blood I count as of no consequence. ~Mahatma Gandhi

The assumption that animals are without rights and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality. ~Schopenhauer

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~Thomas A. Edison
 
My computer is going crazy otherwise this would be a longer reply, but after losing my reply 6 times i realised that people of your opinion who i've encountered before can rarely accept their opinion is just that an opinion and they do not have the right to categorically state what other peoples motives are.

So stick to you rigid opinion, and please for goodness sake don't ever get ill, because based on the feelings you have expressed its unlikely you'll be able to get better

reply if you feel like it but i won't be checking as this is a subject we both clearly feel passionate about, and i won't change my mind and you probably won't change yours
 
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I agree animals are not our equals intellectually. I guess if you are a Buuddist then spititually it may be another matter

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Ah, Buddists are a good example as they are encouraged (I don't think it's actually compulsory) to be vegetarian.
I agree totally that we have a duty of care to animals and they should be treated with compassion at all times.
 
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I agree in many respects, but you do have one thing wrong. Dogs, cats and horses are MORE than capable of looking after and feeding themselves, given the right environment. You obviously could not set a horse free in a town or city, but in its natural environment, it would find food water and shelter with ease, the same with dogs and cats, they would revert to the wild very quickly.

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Yes, I see what you mean, but I'm not sure ALL domestic animals would do well in the wild. ie: not all horses or all dogs, cats etc. Some just wouldn't cope. I did mean animals in the 'human environment' and not wild or feral animals, who are still in many ways vulnerable to human 'attack' for want of a better word.
 
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I know what you mean but in some ways they are our equals in that they should be well treated, not harmed etc. When I was working at the shelter so many people justified their mistreating of their animals by saying "well they're only animals" or similar
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Oh, agree with you 100%. I think the attitude you describe is shocking. There is NO excuse for mistreating animals.
 
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On a slightly different note but the same sort of lines. I cannot be doing with people who credit animals with human thoughts and reasoning.

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Oh, not human thoughts or reasoning, but definitely thought. I'm still thinking about reasoning... I think they can reason to a degree; the way my dog knows she can get away with opening the kitchen door, but will get a telling off if she comes in
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Or perhaps that's not reasoning...
 
I agree they are not our equals

However if someone breaks into your house and kills your dog or indeed kills your horse (whether for meat or not)

Under law there isn't much reprisal, its not a crime if the animal didn't suffer and becomes a civil case. Which IMHO is wrong.

Now my animals are part of the family and I spend a huge amount of time and energy on them. So if someone deliberately killed one I would want justice (or revenge).
 
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My old cat used to sit on our garden fence (attached to next dor neighbours garden) and dangle her paw down and antagonise the dog next door, you're not telling me that was a purely evolutionary response?? She was being an antagonistic little s**t, awesome cat tho!!!

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My cat used to roll about in front of the neighbour's dog, just out of reach!
 
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i realised that people of your opinion who i've encountered before can rarely accept their opinion is just that an opinion and they do not have the right to categorically state what other peoples motives are.

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I could say exactly the same thing about you.


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So stick to you rigid opinion,

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thank you so much for your permission
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and please for goodness sake don't ever get ill, because based on the feelings you have expressed its unlikely you'll be able to get better

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you automatically assume I will run to pharmaceuticals if I were unfortunate to get ill.

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reply if you feel like it but i won't be checking as this is a subject we both clearly feel passionate about, and i won't change my mind and you probably won't change yours

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I doubt that, but thanks again for your permission for me to reply
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- and I have 'encountered' many people like yourself, unfortunately.
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Under law there isn't much reprisal, its not a crime if the animal didn't suffer and becomes a civil case. Which IMHO is wrong.

Now my animals are part of the family and I spend a huge amount of time and energy on them. So if someone deliberately killed one I would want justice (or revenge).

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You're right. I'd want justice (although revenge would suit me just fine as well) too.
 
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I think if more people saw or were made aware or the process involved in getting the meat to their plate they may reconsider as to whether cheap meats etc and a need to eat meats every day is actually necessary.

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I think you're right there. I eat meat and I really really like eating meat, but if I had to kill it myself... I'd have to reconsider. Does make me a bit of a hypocrite I'm afraid
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I have to say i do find myself getting more upset when I hear of animal cruelty/suffering than i do of humans - is that wrong? I don't know, I think it is because the animal relies on us and doesn't have a voice or a way of asking for help. Mind you I feel the same whenever young children are involved in abuse case etc too - much for the same reasons - they are defenceless.

I think domesticated animals do rely on us although some are perfectly capable of reverting to their 'wild ways' if required but we also rely on them. They make us happy, can help take stresses away and bring people together and i think they also, without us knowing sometimes, teach us an awful lot!

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Yep, agree with all that
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Dear Papafrita
I do not consider my human as my equal AT ALL and I would be grateful if you would stop putting these foolish ideas in their heads.My human is my slave.If we were equals I might have to buy her food sometimes,pay her hairdressing bills and act as her chauffer, instead of sitting like a lady in the back.
I am a considerate owner. I take her fo rlots of walks (she needs them) and help her keep that ridiculous animal she calls a horse in order.She is pathetic and without me he would take advantage.From Poppy the SUPERIOR dog
 
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Yes, I see what you mean, but I'm not sure ALL domestic animals would do well in the wild. ie: not all horses or all dogs, cats etc. Some just wouldn't cope.

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Yes that is true, but that is also nature at work as that is survival of the fittest, but I suspect they would cope far better than humans in a similar situation.

Humans have superior communication skills and higher intelligence, but our instincts have been overcome by domestication. The same is not true of our animals; dogs will turn feral very quickly, given the chance to gather into a pack, and the reason our highly trained horses get 'nappy' is because their survival instinct overcomes any aid we might give from the saddle and any training we have instilled. Try to ride a horse near a snake of any sort (even a slow worm) and see what happens.

I do not regard myself as equal to any animal, but I do recognise my strengths and weaknesses as well as theirs, I just need to try and run / jump an XC course on foot, to understand in what respects my horse is far superior to me, or throw myself off a cliff to appreciate that birds have a distinct aerodynamic edge
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You are right PF that it is not compulsory to be a veggie if you are a Buddhist and without boring you many Buddhists are meat eaters such as myself, I source locally raised and produced meat. I was a veggie for a number of years and chose to change.
Many people will have differing views in relation to animals but I feel as long as we treat them with respect what does it matter what you think.
Fortunatly we live in a society where we can have choices in what we believe and think, nobody has a right to enforce their beliefs onto another. So all I would say is be comfortable in what you feel and believe. If you wish to believe animals are equal to humans or vice versa will this truelly make a huge difference if someone believes otherwise.
If I was a devout Buddhist I wouldn't have horses, dogs or rabbits and what an empty life I would live.
Just chill out dudes, I'm off to meditate in my saffron robes!!
 
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