Horses copying each other weaving

[Cample19]

I posted a few weeks ago wondering if anyone had any experiences as my horse used to weave about 6 years ago but hasnt since - a weaver had been moved next to me and today low and behold today she started weaving again - i am so bloomin annoyed - i managed to resolve it years ago and now its started again - so everyone that wondered whether they do or not - yes they do! The owner wont put a weave bar up for her horse which leaves me in a right predicament.. so frustrated!

 

[soph21]

When I worked at the RS, there was a crib biter, she had to be kept away from the rest in the stables as the others will copy her!

 

[monkeybum13]

I thought they didn't "copy" others, but maybe if your has has weaved in the past it has triggered it again. If you put weave bars up will she then follow and put some up for her horse?
Can you speak to YO/M about it.

 

[vetsbestfriend]

My TB occassionally weaves very mildly, mainly to get attention. A couple of years ago a mare moved in next door stable that was a chronic weaver, and he copied and it got to the point he was nearly as bad as she was. Luckily the mare was not there long and he soon settled back down again after she went. The owner of the other horse would also not do anything about it.

Is it worth having a word with the YO/YM to see if they can intervene? If not can you hang some objects e.g. part filled bottles in his door frame to stop him weaving.

 

[soph21]

Can you not explain to YO/YM and ask to move stables? Or new person to swop with someone else?

 

[Rocky01]

It is a myth that horses copy each other. It has been researched extensively and found to be a myth. However, they will get the idea from another horse if they are also feeling stressed as it does relieve this stress. OP, what may have happened is that your horse is feeling his next door neighbour's stress and so has started weaving again, should hopefully stop once everything settles down again.

Hope this doesn't sound too upfront it just gets me cross when people alienate horses because they have a vice. I worked on a yard in the US where horses were allowed to do as they pleased. The yard was busy but not stressful and the horses very rarely cribbed, weaved etc and definately didn't copy each other although many came with vices from previous homes. They always found that reduction in stress reduces vices, give the set up a chance.

 

[Cample19]

Thats a really good idea- very inventive thanks - the owners got a really bad attitude about it i have spoken to the yo and they are going to speak to them but i dont think its gonna go well!

 

[Cample19]

Hi rocky01 - the horse isnt new to the yard its new to the stable - previously he was out of view of any other horses which was fine but the owners just moved it next door to me and yes my horse has started to copy its stressful behaviour of weaving!
What doesnt help is that the said horse has no routine so this situation is not going to get better easily - the owner turns up at all times of the day sometimes not till 1pm to see to it so it is understandably stressed and bored- it is turned out for a few hours a day and isnt worked whatsoever. I cannot leave it to settle down as it has been there for a year and still hasnt the poor bugger. BTW its a full tb.
It has hay constantly, toys and a clean bed but the poor sod doesnt want to be stood in that stable.

 

[TPO]

Ditto Rocky01; you took the words out my mouth!

It's not that they are copying but that being on the same yard/enviroment that they are exposed to the same stresses. More than likely your horse has just picked up on new horse being unsettled and weaving is his/her way of dealing with stress. I'm sure the weaving will reduce, for both parties, once normality resumes.

I've had a crib biter and weavers and none of the others have ever copied and the "sterotypies" have all reduced significantly once in a calm and settled enviroment.

 

[scally]

Sorry I dont believe it is a myth, horses copy each other all the time, herd behaviour is learned from other members of the herd, so a young impressionable horse will copy and mimic others behaviour as they deem this to be correct. In stable kept horses, vices to some are perceived as normal behaviour by impressionable horses (as in humans).

Mine, learnt to weave off of his mother. She never did it until one day when stressed as he escaped in the stables (jumped the door) she started weaving and continued to do it. He just copied her, and will copy any other horse (He is 16 now and hasnt changed with age, he is highly intelligent, but also the bottom of the herd).

He was stabled opposite a horse (for a very short time) that cribbed, and yes he started to do that too. He also started to kick his stable door at feed time, next to another unruly stablemate.

I believe with the scientific trials, some horses have a need to copy more than others, they are all different characters, no trial will have every horse with every temprement going. No trial has evaluated what place each horse has in the herd, does the leader dictate behaviour through the ranks, do the lowest members have a need to copy behaviour. They just pull a random x amount number of horses, all these horses could be leaders or high up mares which will not give accurate results. Also geldings are man made which are not found in the wild, so this again moves the herd dynamics and needs further investigation as to if it is their need to fit in, or be domaniant.

He still weaves, on the lorry through excitement, through stress. Never in the stable unless you put a horse opposite that does and then he will. He has forgotton about cribbing, but I wont allow him near horses with any vices as I know how quickly he will develop that habit.

 

[Tinypony]

Agree with Rocky01, with a slight addition. It always makes sense to me that if a horse feels the stress from it's neighbour then they will get stressed as well. If a horse has a previous disposition to weave, then it will probably weave. Horses are herd animals, they pick up on the vibes from the horses around them. So I don't think that your horse is copying, but it is possible that he is reacting to what is going on next door.
It's well known that weaving bars etc don't solve the problem because the weaving (or whatever) is a symptom, not the cause. So the weaving horse needs a change of situation to help it through this. Maybe a stable mirror, maybe a move to a quieter stable, maybe less stabling.
Just to add, how about considering that the foal started to weave not because he copied his mother, but because his mother was stressed and he then fell into his own stress pattern in response?

 

[soph21]

The mare at RS wasn't stressed, it was just a habit, but the other younger ponies would pick up on it and start copying!

 

[Tinypony]

p.s. Hanging bottles in the doorway is going to cause even more stress. It may remove the visible weaving problem, but the horse will displace the behaviour and come up with something else. Maybe even falling asleep a lot for example, a stress reaction that is often missed. Anything the horse can't fully get away from, like bottles in the door, risks flooding the horse. A pretty sad thing.
I'd like to know more about the weaving horse, but at a guess, it isn't great at being stabled. It may not settle when it's on a busy yard, or overlooking an area where there is a lot of activity. It may be that the hours of stabling have been increased (it's no coincidence that stereotypical behaviours increase in the winter). It may be that it needs routine, but it may also be that it would be even more upset by a strict routine, as stressy horses can work themselves up into a lather of anticipation when every day is so predictable.

 

[Tinypony]

The habit starts from some sort of stress, however, when the horse carries out the behaviour it triggers a rush of endorphins into the system, which give the horse a pleasant feeling. That is why horses can continue to exhibit a stereotypical behaviour after the cause has been removed.
I'm always cautious though, in deciding that there is no reason why a horse performs these behaviours and that it is just a habit. I mean, how the heck do we really know that? We can only guess at what the horse is feeling and why they feel the need to carry out the behaviour.

 

[RobinHood]

Please don't try to physically stop this horse or your horse from weaving. It is a coping strategy - something they do to try to cope in a stressful environment. Changes take place inside the brain meaning that the horse is activating the nucleus accumbens through dopamine transmission. Strangely enough horse owners are the only animal keepers that set out to prevent stereotypic behaviour using physical prevention. Farmers and zoo keepers either allow the animal to do as it pleases or try to prevent the behaviour using environmental enrichment.

Weaving is a locomotional sterotypy so if it is physically prevented the horse is likely to start box walking. The best way to reduce stress and therefore stereotypic behaviour is to increase the amount of co and con specific species interaction, ie with horses and people, change the horse's time budget by feeding ad lib forage and bedding on straw to allow browsing, and increase the horse's view of other horses from its stable if 24/7 turnout isn't available.

There's a lot of published research into stereotypic behaviour that's well worth reading.

If you want to learn more try a journal site such as www.sciencedirect.com

 

[RobinHood]

There is definitely a genetic predisposition to developing stereotypic behaviour which may explain why your foal started weaving. For example there a strain of mouse has been bred with a 0% incidence of stereotypy no matter how much stress it is placed under and another strain of mouse that is born a neurotic wreak! (c57 and DBA/2 mice if anyone is interested). It is likely that your chap's genetic make-up makes him more susceptible to stress and his brain may have altered dopamine receptivity.

That's interesting that he's highly intelligent as crib biters perform better in learning tests, although they are slow at reacting to changes for example switching which colour card they have to touch for a food reward. They seem to struggle breaking a pattern of repetition which shows their addictive personality.

 

[bigboyrocky]

Horses do copy each other in my opinion. And not always for the same reason.. I got a new horse about a month and a half ago who weaves quite alot.. My other boy after 2 days thought hed have a try, it lasted for about 2 days then he got bored and decided his haylage was much more interesting and have never done it since! Therefore i think horses do copy each other.. its nature.

 

[trick123]

we've had weavers and a crib biter on our yard, our own yard own horses, the weaver and the crib biter were bred out of the same mare who was also a weaver and easily anxious? they had no reason to pick these habits up they always had food, out in the summer as youngsters, in at night out in the day in winter, and it is a very quiet yard of about a dozen horses. i have the feeling they inherited from their mother nothing else on the yard has developed these habits. we have a bought in horse who weaves at feed time or when anxious because nobody is talking to him! nothing else on the yard has copied him either, he came with it not developed while he has been with us.

 

[Rocky01]

To add to my previous comment:

I agree that there may be a genetic predisposition to vice related behaviour, and that this link has not yet been explored fully enough.

It is also, I believe, true that horses who sense another horse relieved of stress and see what they are doing may try to copy, suceed and then keep going if they themselves are stressed which may explain why youngstock often learn it from their mother if they are stressed, such as weaning time.

OP, I would definately mention your concerns to the owner of the horse if you can, not along the lines of your horse copying because personally I would just say bull and ignore you, but along the lines of the horse not being happy stabled all the time and maybe he should get more turnout, a stable mirror or toy or all of the above to help him relax. He is showing he is stressed by weaving and although he probably learnt the behaviour while on a racing yard (you said he was TB) he doesn't have to do it all the time and if he (the horse) is more relaxed your boy should soon settle.

I really hope this helps and the other horses owner listens to you. Fingers crossed.

 

[millitiger]

absolutely no proof that horses copy vices.

so on this thread there are one or two horses that appear to have copied (but more likely than not were stressed and found the weaving was a release)
- my weaver has been in yards with around 40 different horses over the last 5 years of owning him including many, many youngsters/weanlings etc.

not one horse has copied him.

 

[legaldancer]

QR

If you put a grill or bottles up he will just stand behind it & weave or start to weave at the wall. It's mean to do this.

I had a terrible weaver & I put a grill up at the door. it didn't stop him, he just stood back from it. In the end I turned him out 24/7 & he became a much happier horse.

 

[cronkmooar]

I have a 20yr old mare TB ex racer - I have owned her for 12 years. She weaves like stink in the stable and at the gate in the field. In the summer when she is turned out 24/7 you never see her weave.

She has lived with her daughter for 11 years (in the field and next stable) - her daughter does not weave and never has

She has lived with my hunter for 7 years - (in the field and next stable) he does not weave and never has.

Various other horses have lived with her over the years - none have started to weave so I do not believe they copy, however I do think that once a horse weaves, windsucks etc they always will - you might have times when they don't but ultimately the vice will always be there

 

[CBFan]

I would sugest that your horse being a sensitive soul has sensed this horses stress and thus been reminded of a way in which to relieve it. It's interesting to hear that you'd managed to stop your horse weaving in the past - my friend appears to have stopped hers cribbing and has put it to the test this week when she moved yards... still no cribbing - touch wood. I think this demonstrates that it can be a habbit, which if you can break for long enough will be 'forgotten'...

 

[superpony]

My welsh used to slightly weave, but hasn't done for 5 years. I've now got a tb that occasionally weaves both in stable and field. The welsh doesnt copy him, never has. Neither has any other horse that has come into contact with him.

 

[Hippona]

My horse used to weave when I got him....he doesnt do it very much at all now....a bit at going out time if I am later than usual........my other 2 never have despite being stabled with him.

Weaving is a form of stress relief.....if you use measures to stop him such as an anti-weave grill etc...it will make him more stressed. Let him be........I used to worry about mine but I figured if he wants to do it, no skin off my nose. He has a 'disco mat'....a square of rubber matting in the doorway so if he does feel the need to dance and nod the impact on his legs is lessened.

If I were asked to put up an anti-weave bar I'm afraid the answer would be no too.

 

[KingCharles]

I am another who does not beleive horses copy each other. Its far more liekly to be that horses start to weave/crib on the same yard becasue they are all kept under the same stressful conditions. I hve heard of mares that weaved/cribbed having foals that never once copied the same behaviour. However as some horses has a genetic preposition to cribbing/windsucking, it woudl make sense for foals to weave/crib liek there mothers as they are probably genetically predisposed to it.

Ive kept horses near other horses that crib/weave and they have never copied. Some horses do end up with the same behaviours. If more peopel read in to the facts behind why horses display these behaviours they may understand why there horses do it.

We have 3 horses that windsuck on one block. there is mine, an ex police horse and a competition pony. Sanwitched between these 3 windsukers are 2 youngsters and 3 other horses who are older. None of the none suckers started to suck. the 3 horses sucked before they came to theyard. My horse has since stopped, the other 2 sticck suck, but there owners have not bothered to investigate why they do.

The only time i agree that horses copy something is when a behaviour is re-enforced by a human. For example door banging,, many horses copy each other becasue they learn that there behaviour gains attentions.

Vices start from poor management and understanding, and are not genrally things that are seen in the wild.

 

[eggs]

Many years ago (30+) I was taught that horses copied vices from each other and many yards would not have cribbers, weavers, etc. However I understand that this is now believed to NOT be the case.

I had two horses at different times who were out with a windsucker and neither 'picked up' the habit. I also had a pony on three months box rest following an operation who was stabled opposite a chronic weaver - also on box rest - and he never weaved either.

 

[Ranyhyn]

My horse does not copy the horse in his field who weaves FWIW.

Grilles etc only force the animal not to do the action, it does not remove the stressful cause of the vice, personally I think its quite an awful thing to do to an animal.