Horses, management and wolves...not in the UK.

I’m not at all convinced by this although I only read the abstract.It seems to suggest that horses are kept in wild breeding herds and domestic horses will learn the behaviour of wild herds eventually, and then wolves won’t be a problem for them! There are no wild horses, they have all been domesticated for hundreds of years, although there may be some feral native herds.
I read recently that a study of shetlands in a wolf populated area in the Netherlands had no surviving foals once wolves were introduced. It is a grim way to experiment in my opinion.
 
ozpoz said:
I’m not at all convinced by this although I only read the abstract.It seems to suggest that horses are kept in wild breeding herds and domestic horses will learn the behaviour of wild herds eventually, and then wolves won’t be a problem for them! There are no wild horses, they have all been domesticated for hundreds of years, although there may be some feral native herds.
I read recently that a study of shetlands in a wolf populated area in the Netherlands had no surviving foals once wolves were introduced. It is a grim way to experiment in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Hmm, yes, be careful what you wish for!
It’s typically townies are thrilled by fabulous large carnivores featured on documentaries, viewed from the safety and comfort of one’s sofa.
Re wilding apex carnivores is often touted as solution to exploding deer populations in UK. However, wolves, lynx and bears are intelligent, find it far easier to predate the slower, fatter and contained prey, from fields, farms, stables, and increasingly do this in Europe.
And when they start stalking and helping themselves to your livestock, horses, pets and children - might be rather too late for a re think.
 
ozpoz said:
I’m not at all convinced by this although I only read the abstract.It seems to suggest that horses are kept in wild breeding herds and domestic horses will learn the behaviour of wild herds eventually, and then wolves won’t be a problem for them! There are no wild horses, they have all been domesticated for hundreds of years, although there may be some feral native herds.
I read recently that a study of shetlands in a wolf populated area in the Netherlands had no surviving foals once wolves were introduced. It is a grim way to experiment in my opinion.
Click to expand...
That's not what I took away really...more that natural herds of horses are more able to develop strategies to cope and be able to utilise natural behaviours to lessen stress. I agree about wilding of predators being more of an urbanites fantasy too, and certainly the increasing wolf population in places like the Netherlands has real potential for causing difficulties that those same enthusiasts are likely to struggle with. I found the article unsurprising in the finding that stable natural herds of horses are better equipped to cope with problems and think that is something we could think about more though.
 
I understood what you were getting at Palo.
Like there is a few farmers in the us (probably in other places too, but those are the ones I've heard about) who are managing to stock their land far more densely with cows than other in the same state, essentially because they are moving them to new pasture every.single.day. They also don't keep them inside, feed forage, or use any seed or weedkiller on the land. And the entire philosophy is based off the idea that herbivores fit beautifully into nature's ecosystem when they can properly exhibit the three Ms - mowing, mobbing and manure. And Mobbing (i.e. being able to gather in herds) was considered just as important to these farmers as the other two, because they found that they had less injuries, illness and predator attacks when they could mob (rather than when in barns or dry lots with hay etc)
 
DabDab said:
I understood what you were getting at Palo.
Like there is a few farmers in the us (probably in other places too, but those are the ones I've heard about) who are managing to stock their land far more densely with cows than other in the same state, essentially because they are moving them to new pasture every.single.day. They also don't keep them inside, feed forage, or use any seed or weedkiller on the land. And the entire philosophy is based off the idea that herbivores fit beautifully into nature's ecosystem when they can properly exhibit the three Ms - mowing, mobbing and manure. And Mobbing (i.e. being able to gather in herds) was considered just as important to these farmers as the other two, because they found that they had less injuries, illness and predator attacks when they could mob (rather than when in barns or dry lots with hay etc)
Click to expand...
Yes! It is something farmers here in the UK are starting to be able to utilize, albeit in a modified way, and relevant to horse keeping too.
 
If you look at countries which have both wolves an vast unfenced tracts of grazing for horses or other livestock, eg Mongolia, Argentina, then you'll find there are some very very large breed guard/herding dogs, bigger than Shetland ponies, used to keep the flocks/herds safe.... Caucasian Mountain Dogs, Mongolian Herding Dog, Spanish Estrela Mountain Dog.
 
How many of us in the UK has the acreage to keep horses in a truly natural herd?
Ponies on eg Dartmoor or the Welsh mountains are what I think of as natural herds but a 5 or 10 acre field is never going to provide the same opportunities for horses to defend themselves, whatever the herd structure
www.theguardian.com

A wolf killed the EU president’s precious pony - then the fight to catch the predator began

After being hunted to near extinction, wolves have returned to Europe. But when one killed Ursula von der Leyen’s family pony, it ignited a high-stakes battle. Are the animals’ days numbered?
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Last edited:
I don’t think wolves will ever be released in the UK - there just isn’t the space for them. Lynx on the other hand….
 
palo1 said:
That's not what I took away really...more that natural herds of horses are more able to develop strategies to cope and be able to utilise natural behaviours to lessen stress. I agree about wilding of predators being more of an urbanites fantasy too, and certainly the increasing wolf population in places like the Netherlands has real potential for causing difficulties that those same enthusiasts are likely to struggle with. I found the article unsurprising in the finding that stable natural herds of horses are better equipped to cope with problems and think that is something we could think about more though.
Click to expand...
Well, yes, large prey herbivores probably would be proportionately less at risk in huge herds, roaming unlimited miles.
But this would be where in the UK?
Current greenwash wants graziers off, or hugely reduced, from moorland. Feral horse herds are rarely numerous like buffalo or antelope, and even the small, feral enclaves we do have in the UK are not necessarily welfare havens for the ponies in them.
If you mean a bunch mooching about in a biggish field is probably nicer for the horses than individual little paddocks - I’d agree that’s likely to be the case.
 
The head lady in the EU - can't remember how to spell her name - had her pet shetland pony killed by wolves, so isn't a great fan of the reintroduction.
 
Orangehorse said:
The head lady in the EU - can't remember how to spell her name - had her pet shetland pony killed by wolves, so isn't a great fan of the reintroduction.
Click to expand...
Ursula van der Leyen, but it’s not reintroduction, wolves have already proliferated from non existent to numerous and problematic in many parts of Europe, because of their super-protected, current status.
It’s not their ‘fault’, just doing wolfish things, but there are now far too many of them, far too close to civilisation (within incredibly short time frame) - where previously there weren’t.
 
Exasperated said:
Ursula van der Leyen, but it’s not reintroduction, wolves have already proliferated from non existent to numerous and problematic in many parts of Europe, because of their super-protected, current status.
It’s not their ‘fault’, just doing wolfish things, but there are now far too many of them, far too close to civilisation (within incredibly short time frame) - where previously there weren’t.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand that, but she isn't in favour of further reintroductions. Isn't it that the wild wolf population has expanded because the EU gave them protected status?
 
Crikey. I have enough problems with foxes nicking chickens so wolves would be my nightmare.
We have bison down the road which is plenty enough wildlife for me.
 
Exasperated said:
Well, yes, large prey herbivores probably would be proportionately less at risk in huge herds, roaming unlimited miles.
But this would be where in the UK?
Current greenwash wants graziers off, or hugely reduced, from moorland. Feral horse herds are rarely numerous like buffalo or antelope, and even the small, feral enclaves we do have in the UK are not necessarily welfare havens for the ponies in them.
If you mean a bunch mooching about in a biggish field is probably nicer for the horses than individual little paddocks - I’d agree that’s likely to be the case.
Click to expand...
I think Palo was more getting at the idea that we are often guilty of forgetting just how important the herd is to the horse because we modern age humans never really see the power of the herd in action. It is a core fibre to a horse's natural instincts, and frequently horses in this country (and others) are kept in such a way that completely denies them that herd element in their lives.
 
Of course no one is going to reintroduce wolves to the UK.

I don't think that's what palo is trying to suggest, either. I think she posted the article, because it has a lot of fascinating insights about horse behaviour, which can be applied in a more general sense. Well, I thought it was interesting anyway. More so than my grandmother-in-law wittering on and on and on about medical problems of people I don't know, which is what was happening whilst I was reading it. Almost anything is more interesting than that.
 
I have friends in Germany, living nearish to Luhmulen who are reminded every year to stable/corral their foals at night because the reintroduced wolves have found them to be easy pickings.....
 
suebou said:
I have friends in Germany, living nearish to Luhmulen who are reminded every year to stable/corral their foals at night because the reintroduced wolves have found them to be easy pickings.....
Click to expand...
A friend was on a recent riding holiday, where a couple of people were from the Netherlands, and they said they have to keep their horses in at night now, because of wolves, and also do not ride out alone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top