Horses that like to lean on your hands

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Morgan123

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What would you do about this?

Said horse is worst in a chunky snaffle so am using a narrow-ish wilkie snaffle for schooling. He is very strong when he wants to be out hacking but don't REALLY want to school in anything stronger than a snaffle. He is working nicely from behind, just really loves to lean. He has nice self carriage with no gadgets when lunging.

Obviously he can only lean if my hand is there to lean on; however I'm finding it really hard to find ways to get him to soften into my hand. If I give a bit more, he does continue moving nicely, offers a stretch, but no matter what doesn't seem to get that nice elastic feel you get with some horses.

Am doing lots of exercises like leg yielding etc to lift shoulder, shoulder in and just flexing to inside and out (e.g. shoulder fore to shoulder in back to shoulder fore - etc - on a circle) to try and get him to flex and off my hands but any other ideas welcome!
 
If he is leaning he is not really engaged at best he is rushing. This is something that you can improve on with your seat, so make sure you are sitting up straight with a strong core. Try a lot of transitions to keep him alert and off the forehand and try doing mini-give-and-retakes of the rein all the time to say to the horse "there is nothing to lean on, you'll just fall on your nose if you do not carry yourself".
 
Give the contact away when he starts leaning? Just push your hands forwards and down, so he loses the sudden support.

Tango was very similar, and as he is so new to being ridden Al really didn't want him to learn he could just rely on her. Especially as he's a chunky one (ID/TB) and far too heavy for it! She spoke to her instructor and for about 2 weeks he was ridden in a waterford snaffle, very carefully, so he physically couldn't lean on the bit. He's now back in his snaffle and going really beautifully, and hasn't lost his lovely responsiveness.

It's worth, if your horse is young or hasn't done much proper work, that lots of shorter sessions so he never gets tired or achey will help him get stronger and not rely on you to hold him up. Tango was doing at most 15 minutes initially to try and avoid a situation where he needed the holding up!
 
Lolo said:
Give the contact away when he starts leaning? Just push your hands forwards and down, so he loses the sudden support.

Tango was very similar, and as he is so new to being ridden Al really didn't want him to learn he could just rely on her. Especially as he's a chunky one (ID/TB) and far too heavy for it! She spoke to her instructor and for about 2 weeks he was ridden in a waterford snaffle, very carefully, so he physically couldn't lean on the bit. He's now back in his snaffle and going really beautifully, and hasn't lost his lovely responsiveness.

It's worth, if your horse is young or hasn't done much proper work, that lots of shorter sessions so he never gets tired or achey will help him get stronger and not rely on you to hold him up. Tango was doing at most 15 minutes initially to try and avoid a situation where he needed the holding up!
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Thanks both. Giving the contact doesn't always help since he just continues, offers a stretch, but doesn't actually soften in my hand much. Instructor is recommending MORE contact to make him give but that's making us both cross and frustrated. It's also making him a bit more behind the leg so yes have been doing lots of transitions etc. Still struggling though!

I was wondering about the waterford idea actually (in fact that is what made me post!), but I am not sure I am confident enough in my hands to try it :-s.
 
I'd speak to your instructor about it- what Al did as she didn't know how to help Tango out properly. Could your instructor get on him for you and so she can feel what's going on? It might be worth her trying that, as sometimes what things look like and what they feel like are polar opposites.
 
I would recommend trying the simplest loose ring myler snaffle , for this type of horse the mouth piece is narrow and the myler joint does discourage leaning.
As a rider you must half halt with your seat and legs and give away th e rien when they lean if you give the contact they can't lean .
Use transitions to discourage them and keep work sessions short I would hack out in a bit with a thin mouthpiece to.
Also worth checking in he leaning with his head not setting his neck a horse can do , either of both if he's setting his neck the way forward is different .
The lateral work will of in time develop a strength and balance if the horse is young just keep working it correctly and the benefits will come .
 
Just wanted to add a horse that is leaning is not in self carriage it may be holding ing itself in a nice shape but if you not got a feeling of it leaning in the rein it's not truly in self carriage.
 
Lots of good advice already but no comments on the bit you are using, the wilkie is going to be very still in his mouth as well as giving a little poll pressure, probably ideal for hacking one of mine goes xc in one, but may not be the best option for schooling, I would try a loose ring with a roller in the middle so there is more to play with and less to lean on.
 
Leaning is a symptom of being on the forehand, and having too strong a contact. Transitions (using your seat not your reins for downwards), serpentines and circles to engage his hinds and finally, he can only lean if there is something to lean on, as Love says. Keep some slight movement in your fingers, think squeezing a sponge, and if he tries to lean, increase the movement so that he has a moving target :). Perhaps this is the time to look at the instruction you are receiving and whether it is taking you where you want to be - stronger contact never leads to lightness IME
 
Morgan123 said:
Thanks both. Giving the contact doesn't always help since he just continues, offers a stretch, but doesn't actually soften in my hand much. Instructor is recommending MORE contact to make him give but that's making us both cross and frustrated. It's also making him a bit more behind the leg so yes have been doing lots of transitions etc. Still struggling though!
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It takes 2 - he has to have something to lean on! Let go completely - he might fall forwards at first but he'll soon get the idea that he has to carry himself. It probably won't be pretty at first but IMO you will need to approach this problem from a completely different perspective. I would be looking for a Classical Dressage instructor who really understands how to school a horse into self-carriage.

Love said:
Don't give him anything to lean on? If you don't resist he can't lean on you :)
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He's relying on you giving him something to lean on! So don't let him - I found lots of circles, with giving and taking the outside rein and engaging the hindquarters helped. I also found a Waterford was a disaster on one horse which leaned but that he went very nicely in a very soft bendy Nathe Pelham with a webbing not a chain curb, which was just too soft and flexible for him to lean on but still gave control and gave him security. The equivalent bit is now a Beris...
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Let go completely - he might fall forwards at first but he'll soon get the idea that he has to carry himself. It probably won't be pretty at first but IMO you will need to approach this problem from a completely different perspective.
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This is exactly what I was (still am!) doing with my horse, as per my instructor. You're right, it wasn't pretty at first as he just took it that I wanted speed so after nearly falling onto his nose, off we went lol! But he soon learned to start carrying himself and is much, much softer. Still quite weak overall so not much 'carriage' but we're getting there.

I would recommend this as has worked for me.
 
Embo said:
This is exactly what I was (still am!) doing with my horse, as per my instructor. You're right, it wasn't pretty at first as he just took it that I wanted speed so after nearly falling onto his nose, off we went lol! But he soon learned to start carrying himself and is much, much softer. Still quite weak overall so not much 'carriage' but we're getting there.

I would recommend this as has worked for me.
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Even as a child I was usually given chunkier horses to ride, as I was tall for my age. Then I have bought cobs and heavier horses myself. They all tend to lean if given the chance but do learn not to if the rider doesn't allow them to.
 
I just swapped my cob from an eggbut French link to a Neue Schule loose ring snaffle with a lozenge (quite a thin mouthpiece) and it has helped his leaning enormously and lightened him up in front.
 
Thanks all!

I've had a classical dressage instructor for several years, and though we did get him working nicely in self carriage, the softening to the contact leaning thing was never really addressed; it's hard to describe but like it's in his mouth rather than in his carriage really. More of a training issue perhaps. When I got him it took me AGES to get him to give to any kind of pressure (e.g. moving over in the stable even!) so I think it's more that - like physically in his mouth - since even when I give with my hand, as I've said, he does remain in self carriage before then offering a stretch. Self carriage on the lunge is excellent with no gadgets and just a headcollar.

New instructor has recommended a different approach. I was thinking about asking her to get on him and may do this, but he is very mistrustful of other people and they often end up on the floor so will have to chat to her about it first.

He really dislikes loose rings and ported bits like the myler, the wilkie is the best I can get.

Thanks though for the advice and interest, will continue with the transitions, lateral work etc etc. I tried using a clicker the other night (he loves clicker training) for when he softened at all to my contact whether doing lateral work or whatever and that did help.
 
When you do mini-give-and-retakes it's not an opportunity for the horse to stretch, there shouldn't be time for that - it's a message to the horse to say "if you try to lean on my hand you will find that there is nothing there".

I don't quite understand though, if he is in self-carriage with contact and when you release it what is the problem? He can't be in self-carriage AND lean on your hand, those two things are incompatible.
 
The simple myler does not have a port it jointed but it is loose ringed .
If he likes to lean he may well " dislike " a bit that makes it every hard for him to lean.
If you are holding up his head ( ie if hes leaning on the bit )he is not in self carriage it's not possible .
Do you mean he' s fixing on the bit and making it hard for you to influence his neck ?
This may be a subtle difference but it's an important one.
 
Booboos said:
I don't quite understand though, if he is in self-carriage with contact and when you release it what is the problem? He can't be in self-carriage AND lean on your hand, those two things are incompatible.
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This is also where I am confused..... If the horse is working from behind and carrying it's self then it shouldn't lean....it may have a strong contact and be 'pulling' the bit to create that contact..... But not leaning downwards?
 
Firstly, if a horse is leaning on you then they are not in self carriage!!

Question - is this leaning constant or intermittant?
 
Goldenstar said:
If you are holding up his head ( ie if hes leaning on the bit )he is not in self carriage it's not possible .
Do you mean he' s fixing on the bit and making it hard for you to influence his neck ?
This may be a subtle difference but it's an important one.
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Yes!! this is exactly what I mean, you put it much much better than I did!! Thank you!!
 
Morgan123 said:
Yes!! this is exactly what I mean, you put it much much better than I did!! Thank you!!
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So is it lateral bend that you have a problem with? Is he resisting your inside leg? Is he better or worse in one rein as opposed to the other (often horses that do this are falling out of one shoulder so they need counter-flexing on one rein but more true bend on the other)?
 
Ok that's abit more difficult to explain .
You can influence the horses neck two ways up and down ( the hieght the poll is at) and the lateral bend line .
Until you can put the horses neck where you want it to be he's on truly through and giving him self willingly to be worked.
I would talk with this your trainer next time you see him or her try to express clearly what you are feeling .
Is it difficult to raise and lower his neck or is the lateral bend difficult ?Or is it a bit of both .
The first thing you need to do is work out exactly what your feeling what it is that it's hard for you to ask your horse to do.
I think it's probally lateral bend you are struggling with.
 
If my horses lean on my hands they get bent to the side (with a large enough rein pull to move their head - I have used both hands on one rein before now) until their head is virtually on my knee or if they follow the rein immediately I release. As soon as the horse 'gives up' and yeilds to the rein the pressure goes. If the horse does it on both reins at the same time (and this doesn't very often happen) just pick a rein.... Remember a horse doesn't choose the strength of contact, you do. If you drop the contact as some have suggested, the horse thinks 'oh good' if I lean I don't have to work cos she/he drops the contact. My way it's more comfortable if the horse is not leaning.
 
blitznbobs said:
If my horses lean on my hands they get bent to the side (with a large enough rein pull to move their head - I have used both hands on one rein before now) until their head is virtually on my knee or if they follow the rein immediately I release. As soon as the horse 'gives up' and yeilds to the rein the pressure goes. If the horse does it on both reins at the same time (and this doesn't very often happen) just pick a rein.... Remember a horse doesn't choose the strength of contact, you do. If you drop the contact as some have suggested, the horse thinks 'oh good' if I lean I don't have to work cos she/he drops the contact. My way it's more comfortable if the horse is not leaning.
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If the horse is being ridden forwards properly when you give the rein the horse thinks I better hold my own head up when you give the rein .
A horse who stops going forward when you give the rein needs its training correcting , TB's need this sort of retraining when they leave racing as its what they teach them to do when they are in training.
 
blitznbobs said:
If my horses lean on my hands they get bent to the side (with a large enough rein pull to move their head - I have used both hands on one rein before now) until their head is virtually on my knee or if they follow the rein immediately I release. As soon as the horse 'gives up' and yeilds to the rein the pressure goes. If the horse does it on both reins at the same time (and this doesn't very often happen) just pick a rein.... Remember a horse doesn't choose the strength of contact, you do. If you drop the contact as some have suggested, the horse thinks 'oh good' if I lean I don't have to work cos she/he drops the contact. My way it's more comfortable if the horse is not leaning.
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Hmmm, you'll get all sorts of advice on here OP you just need to judge what to follow and what to ignore.
 
GET HIS TEETH DONE. Half of my leaning problem disappeared when I got a decent dentist who sorted his bit seat. Thought my vet was doing a good job but obviously not! Also worth getting a loose-ring snaffle, they are harder to lean on than an eggbutt.

Secondly, slow him RIGHT down. Half halt, half halt, half halt. Smallest trot he can do whilst still trotting - you'll have to work hard with both leg and seat. THEN bend him round your inside leg. If you don't let him rush onto the forehand whilst getting the bend, then he has to sit up a bit. Make sure you keep your outside contact so it's inside leg to outside hand.

If he continues leaning, give him a bit of a fright - drop him for literally a stride. Don't do a drawn out give and retake, as then they just stretch into it and lean on the longer rein, but pick him up, then literally drop him for a stride, then get him again. He'll soon get the message that if he leans then you won't support him.
 
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