How can you tell a young horse's scope/potential?

[Ample Prosecco]

Ok this seems like a daft question but you see these 'exceptional foals', bred to event being bought for big money. And they have never been seen in action? Sure they may have good conformation and good movement, and appear athletic but does that really translate to kniwing that a horse is going to be able to go up the levels?

I think Lottie looks well put together and she has excellent eventing and show-jumping breeding. But she's a solid 90/100 horse as far as I can tell. Or maybe she could do a lot more, but as I never jump her higher than a metre I can't tell! Amber always overjumped so it was clear how scopey she was. But Dolly always carefully and economically just cleared fences at every height. So people often assumed she was a lot less able than she is.

So what do you look for in a young horse that you hope to take up the levels SJ or BE? I have no great ambitions for either of us - I'm just curious.

 

[Hackback]

I have never bought a 'posh' horse but was on a yard with eventing and showing people. They would look at the breeding - whether the parents had a record - and what the other offspring from the parents were doing.

 

[RachelFerd]

Well, I think the 'bred to event' foals don't get the big money in the same way as the bred to SJ or dressage foals do - because event horses really *don't* have to be that exceptional to go up the levels (although there are increasingly some exceptional SJ types but with plenty of blood who are those true top end performance event horses).

The SJ never goes above 130, which in SJ terms is really not very big (still looks huge to me though). The dressage never gets above advanced medium level - again, theoretically all in the space of things you can train any horse to do. The XC tests bravery, endurance and partnership - and that's where % blood feels important, but there are plenty of exceptions out there that evidence that it isn't critical to have lots of % blood.

So I think if you're looking for a horse to take up the levels SJ, it needs to be very athletic and very careful. Breeding will point to that quite strongly. Would make a lot of sense to wait until you can see a horse loose jumped to see if they've got that natural athleticism.

But if you're buying to go up the levels in eventing, it's definitely going to be harder to assess that trainability at foal age. Evidence of performance in eventing in the dam line is clearly a good indicator, but not a guarantee.

In terms of assessing a horse you already have - my TB is an interesting case in point. As a 4yo Bill Levett described him as "he could be anything" - he was slow and deliberate and didn't overjump anything - but equally he was doing everything easily within himself. I didn't feel like he had any scope at all and found him really slow off the aids. As a 5yo I took him to Nigel Taylor at Aston le Walls and he described him as one of the nicest 5yos he'd seen that spring. I didn't believe him, because he still felt like riding a slug. Fast forward a bit - lots of instructors in the meantime found him to be pretty nondescript. But one of our current small selection of instructors I go to who is a 5* rider still says "you'll never know how far he can go" - even though he's now at intermediate level. Because he doesn't DO any more than he has to do at any point. He also says his efficiency over a fence and his stamina makes him the dream long format event horse. A couple of years ago I had a one-off lesson with Ros Canter and we were in a group with some 3* going 4* horses, and so when I was describing him I said that 'he's probably not quite as scopey and athletic as those two' - but then we rode round a 120 track, I missed him quite badly to a couple of fences and he just picked up and sorted it out from some pretty wildly bad strides - and she said "he's as athletic as you'll ever need from an event horse" - so yeah, as we've very, very slowly made our way up the levels, he does keep evidencing that those trainers have all been right, and that I was probably not giving him enough credit for what he can do. And if I was to buy another TB I would be looking for something similarly efficient and unremarkable!

 

[ihatework]

I think RF has summed it up for eventers - it’s very difficult. Fairly easy to pick out your potential to do well at 2/3* but finding those that go on to 4/5* is less easy.

Dr/Sj far more purpose bred. Mechanics v important.

For all - damline performance is a big indicator

Comments apply to upper level competition. Most fairly well bred, nice tempered, not yak confo, soundish horse should do Nov/1.15-1.20/Med with a semi competent rider

 

[RachelFerd]

I think RF has summed it up for eventers - it’s very difficult. Fairly easy to pick out your potential to do well at 2/3* but finding those that go on to 4/5* is less easy.

Dr/Sj far more purpose bred. Mechanics v important.

For all - damline performance is a big indicator

Comments apply to upper level competition. Most fairly well bred, nice tempered, not yak confo, soundish horse should do Nov/1.15-1.20/Med with a semi competent rider

and i suppose the other thing to note - horses like mine weren't very competitive at 90/100, but became very competitive at Nov because the balance of the influence of phases shifts further towards XC and speed, and Dr movement is not quite such a big factor at Novice (but is very much a big factor in the more competitive 2* fields). Think mine will be able to be competitive at Int (but I'm the thing holding him back).

Personally think more horses are limited by their riders than they are by their own ability.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I am sure I limit Lottie hugely. I liked sitting on Amber because it was very obvious that she had the jump to get us out of trouble which felt very reassuring. Lottie does not give me that feeling, but I am probably underetimating what she could do with a decent rider. Her sire and damsire have progeny at top level SJ as well as eventing.

 

[Tiddlypom]

RF, one of our RC trainers bought a nice enough tb type horse out of RC to take eventing. A nice but unremarkable type then doing well at RC opens. They went on to have multiple good completions at Badminton and Burghley, he was a proper XC machine.

 

[Maryann]

A show jumping breeder I know runs his four year olds down a jumping lane a few times to assess their potential. The ones that show talent are sent to be broken in and sold by an expert.

 

[lizziebell]

The people paying “big money” on these foals usually have the money to lose, and won’t just be buying one foal. It’s often a numbers game with horses, no matter what discipline, or how well they are bred.

 

[RachelFerd]

RF, one of our RC trainers bought a nice enough tb type horse out of RC to take eventing. A nice but unremarkable type then doing well at RC opens. They went on to have multiple good completions at Badminton and Burghley, he was a proper XC machine.

And that's one of the things I love about eventing - "unremarkable" horses can and do get to the top end of the sport, which just can't happen in the other Olympic disciplines any more. And by purchasing at that point, I bet the trainer was able to spot that the unremarkable horse was just basically really correct, trainable and intelligent - and they could build on that. Hard to spot that as a foal though!!

 

[ihatework]

RF, one of our RC trainers bought a nice enough tb type horse out of RC to take eventing. A nice but unremarkable type then doing well at RC opens. They went on to have multiple good completions at Badminton and Burghley, he was a proper XC machine.

One of my friends bought a big young hunt hireling as a 4yo.

I distinctly remember a conversation in the lorry after an intermediate (and another cricket score in the sj) how friend was going to tell the owner the horse had probably reached his limit.

She chickened out. Horse then jumped round Burghley and Badminton!

I just love those types. They might not be at the top of the leader board, but they are stars in their own right.

But you wouldn’t have bought him as an upper level event horse probably at any time, foal or otherwise!

 

[TheMule]

All you can really judge is athleticism and that mysterious ‘presence’, but some foals do have ‘it’ and look more obvious top contenders. Obviously once you can see them properly move and jump at 3 it’s an easier call, but there’s still a million other factors!

 

[Birker2020]

Ok this seems like a daft question but you see these 'exceptional foals', bred to event being bought for big money. And they have never been seen in action? Sure they may have good conformation and good movement, and appear athletic but does that really translate to kniwing that a horse is going to be able to go up the levels?

I think Lottie looks well put together and she has excellent eventing and show-jumping breeding. But she's a solid 90/100 horse as far as I can tell. Or maybe she could do a lot more, but as I never jump her higher than a metre I can't tell! Amber always overjumped so it was clear how scopey she was. But Dolly always carefully and economically just cleared fences at every height. So people often assumed she was a lot less able than she is.

So what do you look for in a young horse that you hope to take up the levels SJ or BE? I have no great ambitions for either of us - I'm just curious.

Ted Edgar once asked me how my horse had been bred. I replied Grandson of Nimmerdor. He said that was really good as he chose horses based on whether the Grandsire was well bred. He didn't look at the sire only the Grandsire saying that greatness skips a generation. Obviously I had no aspirations to be jumping at Olympia but it would have been so interesting had my horse had a 'proper jockey' ride him to see how far he would have advanced. Three years later at 10 he developed spavin so I'm not sure he would have gone that far but who knows.

Have no idea if that is true or not but that's how he picked his horses. Big Star comes to mind being my horses half brother.

 

[Vodkagirly]

and i suppose the other thing to note - horses like mine weren't very competitive at 90/100, but became very competitive at Nov because the balance of the influence of phases shifts further towards XC and speed, and Dr movement is not quite such a big factor at Novice (but is very much a big factor in the more competitive 2* fields). Think mine will be able to be competitive at Int (but I'm the thing holding him back).

Personally think more horses are limited by their riders than they are by their own ability.

Would be interesting to look at the results of 5 * horses when they doing 90 to see if that is the norm

 

[RachelFerd]

Would be interesting to look at the results of 5 * horses when they doing 90 to see if that is the norm

*most* 5* horses will only jump one or two 90 classes for early education, either HC because their riders are overqualified, or in a 90open. Easy enough to click through and see their records on the BE site.

 

[tristar]

i prefer to buy 2 or 3 yr olds, but have bought outstanding, to me, foals.

i like to watch them play, got now one practicing his circles and working towards canter pirouettes on his own in the field, a good sign for me when they look like they are doing something `ridden` whilst loose

thing with event horses, they don`t have to look spectacular to be good, or any particular shape, movement or even breeding or size, but most very good horses of any discipline have something extra about them, which i find makes breeding so interesting.

 

[RachelFerd]

I mean, case in point - who'd have thought this horse would jump round Badminton a couple of times based on his out-of-work and hairy look?

1 unrecognisable four-star eventer and 9 other bits of fantastic horsey social media this week - Horse & Hound

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[daffy44]

As a dressage rider 90% of the horses I buy are foals, and I'm reasonably confident buying a dressage foal, I used to work for for a show jumper who had a couple of stallions and he was big into breeding of jumpers and I'd be less confident, but ok buying a sj foal. But I'd have the least confidence by a long way buying an eventing foal, because so much is down to the horses attitude and rider partnership, the things you have no clue about with a foal.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

In racing horses are first and foremost bought on their bloodlines. Conformation 2nd but you still have to like the horse you are buying before parting with your money.

Once in training its a funny one. We were talking about this today. It doesn't actually necessarily matter how well or how badly they work at home because what they do on the track could be something different entirely. Take Champ - one of the best work horses in the yard, not many can touch him for speed or stamina on the gallops. Yet he is our lowest rated jumps horse by a country mile. Its easier on the flat to gauge what you've got before you head out as a lot work on times now, they time the furlongs. But even then you can't guarantee one that works well at home will run well on the track.

 

[daffy44]

In racing horses are first and foremost bought on their bloodlines. Conformation 2nd but you still have to like the horse you are buying before parting with your money.

Once in training its a funny one. We were talking about this today. It doesn't actually necessarily matter how well or how badly they work at home because what they do on the track could be something different entirely. Take Champ - one of the best work horses in the yard, not many can touch him for speed or stamina on the gallops. Yet he is our lowest rated jumps horse by a country mile. Its easier on the flat to gauge what you've got before you head out as a lot work on times now, they time the furlongs. But even then you can't guarantee one that works well at home will run well on the track.

I think this is true of all competition horses, some really rise to the challenge of competition and some shrink. I've looked after sjers who were sloppy at home, tapping fences all over the place etc, but put them in the ring at a show and they were hot, very careful winning machines. Equally some dressage horses always give you more movement in a test, some shrink and give you less, you wont know until you start competing.

 

[catkin]

I think this is true of all competition horses, some really rise to the challenge of competition and some shrink. I've looked after sjers who were sloppy at home, tapping fences all over the place etc, but put them in the ring at a show and they were hot, very careful winning machines. Equally some dressage horses always give you more movement in a test, some shrink and give you less, you wont know until you start competing.

They don't always want to do what we humans think/want them for either.

So what do we do with an eventing-bred who would rather hack?
(ours did just that very very well for 20plus years, but we had to accept a change in our goals to suit an adored hoss)

 

[Jeni the dragon]

The horse a friend got the ride on was pretty unremarkable in the lower levels. They always thought he'd reached his peak but every time the fences were bigger, he just kept jumping them. Reasonably well bred. He went on to be a pretty decent horse, though his quirkiness stopped him doing quite as well as he might have done. And if he'd been ridden by a British rider, his BE points would have been unmatchable. And I think most people would give their right arm for a horse like Lenamore!

 

[daffy44]

They don't always want to do what we humans think/want them for either.

So what do we do with an eventing-bred who would rather hack?
(ours did just that very very well for 20plus years, but we had to accept a change in our goals to suit an adored hoss)

I totally agree, that why buying a foal is always a gamble.

eta: One of the foals i bought was stunning, she graded well as a three yr old, but she never really enjoyed her work, I took things slowly, tried to give her as much variety as possible etc, but she never liked it. She moved beautifully, found learning new things very easy, but everything felt like she begrudged it, I wondered if it was lack of strength etc, gave her time, but by the time she was eight I admitted defeat and she went off to be a recipient broodmare and she was never happier. In the end you have to listen to the horse.

 

[ihatework]

They don't always want to do what we humans think/want them for either.

So what do we do with an eventing-bred who would rather hack?
(ours did just that very very well for 20plus years, but we had to accept a change in our goals to suit an adored hoss)

Always a risk whatever horse or discipline.

I bred my now 7yo to hopefully be an eventer but if not with the back up of being a dressage horse for me.

Good job he likes Eventing because he would be an utterly rubbish dressage horse for me!

I’ve thought about what he might do if he falls out of love with Eventing and I reckon he would make a pretty good endurance horse - he loves hacking and is very difficult to tire out!

 

[humblepie]

I think most sports/competitions/thoroughbred horses could go up to reasonable levels with the right person and some beyond as evidenced by the different types that do excel particularly eventing. Beyond that I know nothing.

 

[Rokele55]

I knew a very good mare who was injured early on eventing then went on to have at least 10 foals. At least two went on to the absolute top professional eventing. One was an amazing racehorse. One was good at everything, won races and eventing and was the most mannerly hunter, despite being a great big bozo. Some were just good enough eventing, some were utterly useless. And you couldn't tell until They started work. And they were all... difficult (bonkers) in any way they could think of.

 

[spacefaer]

Breeding eventers has got to be one of the hardest things aa it takes so long to find out how good. they're going to be.
And theres no guarantees either. I had 3 full brothers to produce for a breeder. One was an ungainly 5 Yr old who had very limited discernable talent and a poor attitude, one was a good looking 4 yr old who was very challenging to back but a delight to ride. The 3rd was a 3 yr old who was very opinionated and was sold before backing. Two of them were sold for three figures, one for well over 100k and represented his rider's country at WEG and the Europeans.
Who would have known when they were foals?

 

[Lexi 123]

My horse dam Irish sport horse she was a brilliant eventer she evented up to 1-10 showjumped 1-30 She really was a talented mare. My mares sire was Irish draught horses who was rds champion in the dublin horse show won for many years in a row was the perfect show horse . You think with this Would make a very athletic offspring nope my horse is not a competition horse . when I actually bought her they said she never be a big track horse basically she is just a happy hacker that likes the old jump in the arena . Unfortunately you wouldn’t think she was actually an offspring of a talented eventer . She is an amazing mare She just lack the confidence, ability and athleticism of jumping higher due to her build . I think people forces to much on bloodline and don’t see the bigger picture.

i know a woman who breeds from a mare with very fancy bloodlines none of offspring’s have achieved anything they all ended up being sold to the uk as happy hackers or low level horses . The mare ended up having 10 foals and was a successful dressage horse but none foal were dressage horses they just didn’t have the fancy movement or interest and they actually sold for very little money she only got half the asking price because they had Bone chips and nobody would take them Because they needed surgery.

 

[nikkimariet]

Personally think more horses are limited by their riders than they are by their own ability.

Agree 150%

 

[tda]

I think all you can do is look critically at confirmation and movement of the foal/youngster, , the rest is just marketing.
A lot of importance is put onto stallion assets but every pony I have bred has been significantly influenced by the mare