How can you tell if an unbacked horse is going to be good?

[Ambers Echo]

So a couple of friends have bought event horses recently for their daughters both of who have outgrown their BE90/100 ponies and are now wanting horses that can go Novice. To find horses in budget they have been looking at 3 and 4 year olds. These are obviously totally unproven. The price tags on these horses is still pretty hefty. They have taken loads of advice from trainers etc and gone for horses with great conformation, lovely paces, good technique loose schooling over fences, calm temperaments and good breeding. How reliable is that? How can you assess boldness, willingness in a young horse? Just curious really. I have bought unbacked too, but that's because they were cheap! These aren't!!

They both are utterly stunnning so I hope it all works out well for them.

 

[Fanatical]

You can't. There always risk with buying unproven and you won't really know what you've got for a good 12 months after backing in my expereince. However, for me, this is the best way as I got sick and tired of driving round the country wasting hours and ££ on fuel to be disppointed for various reasons.

 

[ihatework]

Training quality and a big dose of pot luck.

I’ve seen super flash fail abysmally and run of the mill just keeping on rising up the levels

 

[windand rain]

Youngsters with loose jumping talent and good conformation is only the start, just as a clone of Valegro may have the talent to win it is life experience and the correct training that make the finished article. The very best bred and talented un broken horse can be either a star or a dud depending on its training and temperament. A number of well bred horses may have the same breeding, good conformation and talent but it you cannot get it out of them they will only be run of the mill at best and too much horse and not enough courage at worst

 

[Goldenstar]

You can’t tell you can only hope and pray .

 

[DabDab]

I think boldness and willingness are actually not too difficult to see in a blank canvas type horse. The thing that I think is really difficult to assess is whether they will be the sort of horse that you can ride well and get a good tune out of. Most of the brilliantly capable riders I know who buy their horses untouched are either really good at spotting the sort of horse that they find easy to work with or are just so capable that they can get a tune out of most horses, or a combination of both.

 

[ycbm]

So a couple of friends have bought event horses recently for their daughters both of who have outgrown their BE90/100 ponies and are now wanting horses that can go Novice. To find horses in budget they have been looking at 3 and 4 year olds. These are obviously totally unproven. The price tags on these horses is still pretty hefty. They have taken loads of advice from trainers etc and gone for horses with great conformation, lovely paces, good technique loose schooling over fences, calm temperaments and good breeding. How reliable is that? How can you assess boldness, willingness in a young horse? Just curious really. I have bought unbacked too, but that's because they were cheap! These aren't!!

They both are utterly stunnning so I hope it all works out well for them.

You can't. And if I have read you right and two girls coming off ponies are being expected to move to completely green and unproven horses, then their parents are surely either ignorant or very badly advised, and I can only hope that the girls come through it unscathed.

The move from ponies onto experienced horses is a notoriously difficult one. I have watched some very competent pony riders fail the move onto experienced horses. To move to green horses seems to me to be asking for serious trouble.


..ETA. See AE's post number 10

 

[HappyHollyDays]

You can't tell. DP is the son of Der Feine Lorde the FEI gold German dressage champion. He has a foot imbalance which will never be resolved although my farrier does a fantastic job of keeping him level. He hates going inthe school and is happy as a hacking pony. Had I bought him as a dressage pony I would have been sorely disappointed. As a happy hacker with the occasional riding club clinic he is perfect.

 

[Michen]

You can’t tell but I think you get an instinct. I bought Boggle because on the video of him trotting up, the person videoing then walked around him filming him whilst a handler stood him up. Boggle never took his eyes off him and followed him with the most intelligent expression I had ever seen in a horse, I can’t describe it but I just knew there was a super bold animal in there. And I was right!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Both girls ride horses already- they competed both their mum's horses successfully. Those horses were not able to go any further though and so both parents have sold their own horses to fund the ambitions of these 2 very talented, dedicated young riders. So I really hope it all goes ok for them.

 

[ycbm]

Both girls ride horses already- they competed both their mum's horses successfully. Those horses were not able to go any further though and so both parents have sold their own horses to fund the ambitions of these 2 very talented, dedicated young riders. So I really hope it all goes ok for them.

That explains things. Thanks.

 

[paddi22]

I'd put conformation, breeding and paces WAAAY below braveness, work ethic and a big heart in a an event horse. They have to WANT to do it, and enjoy it.

At the end of the day it's usually pure luck and instinct with a baby eventer. I usually buy just from the face, if they have a proud, kind confident eye.

I don't trust loose jumping at all, i've had some that looked like superstars loose jumping, but it never translated into boldness xc, or braveness once a person was on them! Same with technique, some of the best event horses you see going round have very unconventional technique.

 

[Lammy]

I read Coral Keen’s most recent H&H write up today and I think that says a lot about baby eventers.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/blog/coral-keens-eventing-blog-things-arent-always-seem-681539

 

[awelshandawarmblood]

I bought my yearling last summer with the aim of eventually eventing. Having followed his bloodlines & done further research, all that points towards capability but more important than that was what kind of 'person' he was when I viewed him. He's very brave without being cocky if that makes any sense plus he trusts his handler - he walks up to look at 'scaries' & doesn't just snort & bomb off, he walked onto a lorry for the first time following me no issue, first time having a rug on once he'd sniffed it & deemed it not something that could kill him he didn't care about it going on him flapping in he wind etc - he's nicely confident. May sound silly to others but all the kind of traits & signs that he'll have the right brain for working forwards etc.

My other one freaks out first & thinks later, very backwards jumping unless he's been it & seen it before - I couldn't just take him around an unknown course as he'd back off & jam the anchors despite loads of training, its his character!

So I've got everything my youngster turns out to be a good one! If not, we'll just do what we find he's suited for & enjoys.

 

[Ambers Echo]

It seems to be a minefield whichever way you go about it. Another pony club kid moving off ponies is on schoolmaster number 3 after the first 2 needed retiring within months of purchase. Kissing spines and tendon issues.

The parents and kids have plenty of very good advice from trainers and they are not planning to do all the work themselves. The horses are being professionally schooled as well. But I guess now it is just a waiting game!

What does puzzle me is why these unproven horses fetch such a big price tag if it is such a gamble? It is a risk/benefit ratio kind of thing? Ie they may be useless/unsuitable but if they are good they will be very, very good?

Also why is the transition to horses so hard? In my admittedly limited experience horses are more straightforward than ponies!

Good luck with your youngster AWAAWB. x

 

[ycbm]

Ponies are short striding, quick thinking, and a good one helps the rider out when in difficulty. A good eventer helps the rider out to, but it's much more difficult for them because of the longer stride. Likewise, if the rider gets it wrong, it's easier to go for a long one or pop in a short one if the stride is shorter in the first place, plus less likely to be wrong in the first place.

Children who came up to a high level of jumping competition on ponies often seem to give up when they need to transfer to a horse. With the ones I've seen, they had so much to relearn, and so little earthly competitive success, that it frustrated them.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes that makes sense!

 

[ycbm]

The unproven horses fetch a big price tags because of that mysterious thing 'potential'. I went to a trainer once twenty five years ago who had a mare for sale for £12k, a lot of money back then. I asked her if she was that good why she didn't compete her before seeing her, and she said 'if I sell her uncompeted, she has 'potential'. If I compete her and she doesn't win, then she has lost some of that and will be worth less'.

 

[Asha]

the transition to horses is a big step, ive seen 2 seriously talented young riders ( one on England teams etc ) just not get to grips with horses and give up. As ycbm says its mainly due to the difference in striding, and the wonderful pony brain.

As for youngsters, you cant tell, if you could all the good studs would be making far much more money than they do now. Its the gamble when taking on a youngster. However, you can minimise the risks . Always check out the dam, what did she do, what was she like under saddle, and the youngsters siblings how have they done under saddle. Good breeders will know the mare inside out and be able to give an idea of temperament based on these. Take my latest project as an example, I bought her based on her breeding ( and feeling a bit sorry for her as she looked so poor) . I researched the dam, and checked out the dams other progeny. All my girls siblings ( not full) have gone on to event/sj to a good standard. ( one foxhunter level, and one doing the age classes at BE). But the main thing for me was temperament. The breeder was able to tell me how her siblings behaved during the backing process, and true to form this mare has been the same. Will she be as talented as her siblings, ive no idea, but the one thing I can say that if shes not she will make a fab good level RC horse. The girl who rides her has nicknamed her the dragon off shrek, as shes so big, but looks at everyone with big daft soppy eyes.

 

[tristar]

ponies often do it for you, and combined with the pony tendency to go too fast and in a `flatter``way makes the transition to horses considerable,a horse,especially a youngish one will need guidance and a style of riding that shows the horse the way, and being able to set the horse up for a jump balance wise poses questions young people have to learn the answer to through altering their riding and improving their dressage skills

 

[Leo Walker]

Its always a gamble. I went for run of the mill but pretty looking and with a nice temperament, with the idea being if she didn't take to what I want to do, that she would always find a home as nice all rounder. So far so good with her, shes taken to it like a duck to water and was amazing at her first competition. Whether she has the spark and grit they need as the courses get longer and the questions harder remains to be seen. I think so as she has an innate desire to please, and with that sort of attitude they will do anything for you. It helps that I am barely mediocre and so wont be setting the world alight either, so I'm not aiming for national teams with her, well not yet anyway! Never say never I guess!

 

[oldie48]

A trainer, who in his younger days backed quality horses, told me they used to back them, find out what they were good at and sell them into that market. I know quite a few people who have bought unbacked horses for a particular job and found they were unsuitable for it and I think eventers are quite a special type of horse and the really top class ones are rare, almost an accident of nature. with regard to moving from ponies to horses, my daughter had quite a successful eventing career on ponies, did trials etc but found the transition to horses quite difficult. She could do the dressage and cross country but really struggled with the sj. Her pony had been a brilliant sjer, get him to the fence and he'd do his best to get over it and not touch it, different story with the eventer whom we bought as a five year old.

 

[Littlebear]

I bought a 6 month old quite a few years ago, bred for showjumping, great confo and lines, turned out to be literally the most useless showjumper you've ever met, would barely make it round a bn, but she turned out to be a good horse and we did dressage instead. It definitely taught me a lot! I have now bred another that should be very good for dressage but I wont hold my breathe too much, just see what I have to work with once he is 4 or 5, its a massive gamble.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

You check breeding if that's good then you have a chance assuming that the horse has inherited its sires & dams ability, but there is never any certainty but you will have a good chance. There is no substitute for good conformation. It the horse is put together right then it has a chance of moving correctly & again that will give you a chance. See the horse move in all three gaits hopefully it will move well. If these three things appear good then see what its temperament is. If it's inquisitive that helps & shows some boldness but boldness will show itself, or not, when training is under way.

When the horse is broken in chose someone who is sympathetic & does things right. It's so easy at that point to damage the horse mentally so it's important that the right person does it.

The above is not a guarantee of sucess but it gives you a chance of buying a nice horse who hopefully will eventually do what you want.

 

[sportsmansB]

A friend of mine has an amazing eye for a young horse. He is buying to be potential eventers.
He maintains that attitude comes above all. He looks for the pushy, cheeky ones in a crowd of youngsters as they are often bravest generally. The ones who come to the front of the gang at the gate to see who the strangers are.
If they are loose schooled, hes looking for a naturally balanced canter that isn't as long as a bus (those ones take much longer) and an intelligent attitude to a jump if there is one there- not necessarily the flashiest massive jumper. If they hit a pole hes not worried but would be happy with one who jumped it differently the next time.
He looks for good legs and feet, for soundness.

 

[TheMule]

The pressure on a teenager to produce an expensive young horse in such circumstances is pretty much a guarenteed way to get said teenager to give up horses. I've seen it time and time again, sadly.

A talented young horse needs times and correct, careful production, otherwise that talent will never be realised

 

[Fiona]

A trainer, who in his younger days backed quality horses, told me they used to back them, find out what they were good at and sell them into that market. I know quite a few people who have bought unbacked horses for a particular job and found they were unsuitable for it and I think eventers are quite a special type of horse and the really top class ones are rare, almost an accident of nature.

I'd agree with this for sure...

It may be a lot easier to assess a 4yo who is under saddle, but I reckon it would be very difficult to assess an unbroken 3yo for eventer potential...

Professionals buy youngsters in batches so its less of a gamble, but obviously the rest of us buy horses one at a time...

Fiona

 

[Fiona]

The pressure on a teenager to produce an expensive young horse in such circumstances is pretty much a guarenteed way to get said teenager to give up horses. I've seen it time and time again, sadly.

A talented young horse needs times and correct, careful production, otherwise that talent will never be realised

In support of this, I have a couple of friends whose teenagers have been bought a young horse to move onto after ponies, but the young horse has spent a year or so being produced by a professional before the teen takes over...

Much more expensive way of doing things, but at least the right buttons are being put in place.

Fiona

 

[Tarragon]

I think that you can tell if there is something about the young horse or pony that you click with which makes you want to work with it.
Then it is the case of you either like it so much that you are prepared to do what whatever activity it turns out to be best at, or you sell it and try again!

 

[Orchard14]

If you ever find an answer for that - be sure to let me know!

You can't tell. DP is the son of Der Feine Lorde the FEI gold German dressage champion. He has a foot imbalance which will never be resolved although my farrier does a fantastic job of keeping him level. He hates going inthe school and is happy as a hacking pony. Had I bought him as a dressage pony I would have been sorely disappointed. As a happy hacker with the occasional riding club clinic he is perfect.

I have the same problem Lindylouanne, I bought a horse out of an Advanced SJ mare and a GP stallion by an Olympic gold medal winner hoping I might get something I can get up the levels with. She too developed a foot imbalance (which is improving) but it means I am constantly on the watch for lameness. She is as brave as they come, very sensible and forward thinking though. Much more intelligent than any of my other horses so it's a great shame.

I have bought all of my horses as 1/2/3yo's for financial reasons and it never gets easier. As far as looking for young horses goes I tend to look for the ones with average trots and good walks and canters. Something that breaks into canter before doing a fancy flicky toe trot and willingness to sit on it's backend when it slides to a halt. Something sharp and active minded too. Agree with those above who state the importance of quality of training. Even then there's never any guarantee but maybe that's the fun part?