How close is too close in bloodlines ?

[scallywags]

I'm looking into sires, for my broodie, but all the stallions that catch my eye are connected at some point.

She is a westiphalian, graded hanoverian. Out of Dimension, Donnerhall, mare Romika, Renaldo

Last foal got elite at BEF with a 9.11 out of classic juan, so were looking to go better.

So whats acceptable for crossing bloodlines ? I see a lot of stallions have crossed lines, somewhere back in there pedigree, or is it best to stay completely unassociated ?

Also any stallion sugestions welcome

 

[KarynK]

Line breeding and in breeding can be very useful in producing top class performers but you have to know what you are about and the pros and cons.

Man has been using the techniques for thousands of years in plants and animals to fix type and improve performance.

Basically you are concentrating the genes of a very good example in subsequent generations. Totally out crossing a pedigree means that the genes on any individual ancestor loose influence fairly quickly. But if you bring them back into the pedigree by using a relative further back then those genes have a greater influence for a longer period.

TB's have found concentrating the genes in this way produces more higher level performers than just putting the best to the best and hoping for the best. However you come to a point at which the advantage declines as the horse gathers more dominant genes with each cross from that ancestor, (inbreeding depression) if you are clever you can judge this point and use an outcross to bring in new genes, a bit like a red bull and vodka, this brings a rush of new genes and often a better performer and is known as Hybrid Vigour. Generally TB’s do not cross closer than the 3rd generation and the 3rd to the 5th are known as inbreeding anything further back is linebreeding. A lot of high performers in the TB are inbred and linebred. The most influential modern inbreeding is on Northern Dancer.

However the big caveat here is that as well as concentrating good traits through the genes you also concentrate any bad ones. The QH Poco Bueno is a prime example as when he was inbred upon to produce some of the very best working horses in the breed this unfortunately allowed the recessive genetic mutation he carried to manifest itself as the distressing disorder Hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia (HERDA), basically the skin does not attach to the muscles. Thankfully now with genetic testing breeding two carriers together can be avoided, hopefully in the future genetic engineering can help eradicate even carriers for the future.

I have a more in depth article on inbreeding if you want to know more.

 

[scallywags]

KarynK I'd love to know more.

I understand with inbreeding / line breeding, you create a solid stamp of horse, but also increase any defects at the same rate. I've never heard of HERDA before, thats shocking

When you say <font color="#666666">
Generally TB’s do not cross closer than the 3rd generation and the 3rd to the 5th are known as inbreeding anything further back is linebreeding. </font>

Would it be generally considered acceptable, 3rd generation full brothers on both sides ? 75% different, 25% connected blood for the foal?
Or would it be the same sire, on 3rd and 5th gen ?
I'm new to looking at pedigree's so just want to clarify the amount of connection thats considered acceptable.

In a wild herd situation, horses to my knowlegde wouldnt be picky, re sires and daughters breeding - as a wild animal, I think nothing of it, as its nature but, its the human intervention and selection in close connection makes me uncomfortable.

Looking as a owner / buyer, I'm very aware of the affects of too close breeding, and inherited conditions (more so in dogs than horses, in my personal experience)

In looking up lots of stallions pedigree's there always to be some ancenstory cross over, even Totilas has 4 double ancestors, between gen 3 - 8
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=totil...&amp;birthland=

In this line you have Farn's great grandaughter, Elsa. And Farn's grandson Glendale, breeding to produce Lominka. This obviously worked out well, but to me this seems odd, but thats me putting human perspetive on the situation.
I'd like to know other peoples views on this, as this type of connection seems very normal. Feel free to pm if you'd prefer

 

[KarynK]

Will PM you the article as it has diagrams on it so don’t think I can post it here. Can’t find it at the moment think it’s on my memory stick!

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be generally considered acceptable, 3rd generation full brothers on both sides ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don’t normally see full brothers in TB pedigress usually ½ but that is more down to the pure performance driven nature of racing, it is rare that two full brothers would have the same ability on the racetrack and go on to stud, or even that repeat matings are carried out to produce them that often. But full brothers can have a very different genetic makeup or a very similar one due to the luck of the draw on conception. They could in fact be totally different genetically speaking and not share any of the same characteristics to the other! (Though this is very unlikely).

But 3x3 matings in TB’s are common, the very influential modern stallion Danehill is inbred 3x3 on the great mare Natalma through the half siblings Spring Adieu and her half brother Northern Dancer. My own TB mare Windward Isle is inbred 4x5 on a mare called Anne of Essex via two half sisters Anadem and Arietta she is also inbred on Nearco 5x5 through the two half brothers Nasrullah and Royal Charger.

It is interesting that usually TB's are inbred upon individuals that are themselves inbred.

Totilas might well owe his exceptional ability to some careful planning in matings, with the TB you can see this on a grander scale as there are so many of them tested early in their lives on the racetrack, whereas your average sport horse takes much longer to produce to it's testing and many will fall short through injury or through no fault of their own.

[ QUOTE ]
In a wild herd situation, horses to my knowlegde wouldnt be picky… its the human intervention and selection in close connection makes me uncomfortable.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is some research that has shown that fathers do not mate with daughters who leave the family group before they are sexually mature, but in some situations I would think that this happens, or at the least father granddaughter mating or close relatives might occur depending on the range of the wild horses.

You can look at the human element in many ways but at the end of the day without selective breeding by man the horse would not have developed in the way it has, we might well be eating the small scrubby examples that existed before man developed them into the breeds we see today! Equally we probably wouldn’t be here on the internet without inbreeding to produce the superior plants and animals for our use?

You are bound to get common relatives because until widespread travel, AI and particularly frozen semen became available, logistics dictated a limited access to new blood, but that in it self showed that mild inbreeding was beneficial. Even in humans a hundred or so years ago, humans “bred” within a limited area and so might well have shared common ancestors, the upper classes and royal certainly limited their gene pools!!!


All breeds database, which is down for maintenance at the moment, is very useful when you subscribe (for a few dollars) it will work out the inbreeding coefficient for you and show the common ancestors for as far back as the pedigree is available. It will also allow you to do this for hypothesised matings too.

 

[S_N]

The only full TB brother I can think of that have been successful are His Majesty and Graustark - both by Ribot, ex Flower Bowl.

 

[KarynK]

Just remembered, Zafonic and Zamindar by Gone West ex Zaizafon. That one was interesting as the ill fated Zafonic was better on the track but Zamindar has had more success breeding with a couple of millionaires notably Zarkava.

And of course Black Sam Bellamy and Galileo - Urban Sea x Saddlers Wells.

There were also the 4 brothers Danehill, Eagle Eyed, Anziyan and Nuclear Freeze, but Nuclear Freeze ended up in Turkey, Anziyan in New Mexico! Danehill was definitely the one with the best genes in that family!!! And Eagle Eyed was probably only sent to stud as he was a full brother to the other 3!

There are probably more but they are relatively rare as mares have a limited number of foals and repeat matings can be costly if they don't work, you've wasted several foals!

 

[S_N]

LOL, I also thought of Kris and Diesis and also racing performance wise the full siblings Dansili, Banks Hill, Intercontinental, Cacique and Champs Elysees. Cheating slightly, but the 3/4 brothers Empire Maker and Chester House too.

 

[scallywags]

[ QUOTE ]

You can look at the human element in many ways but at the end of the day without selective breeding by man the horse would not have developed in the way it has, we might well be eating the small scrubby examples that existed before man developed them into the breeds we see today! Equally we probably wouldn’t be here on the internet without inbreeding to produce the superior plants and animals for our use?


[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, without human intervention many species wouldnt exist in there current state. Many would not have been made extinct, and many never would have been created

 

[KarynK]

Ok I give up there are loads of em. Oh and of course we forgot Saddlers Wells and Fairy King!!!

I would be inclined to breed a mare to brothers that were a good match for her just to hedge my bets!!!

 

[S_N]

LOL - Just thought of Dr Fong and Lucky Story (though neither are setting the world a light as sires, though early days for LS)

 

[KarynK]

Another one Kingmambo and Miesque’s Son ex Miesque plus more from her brood, ok I’ll stop now!!!

Sorry Scallywags before S-N and I get really carried away here is Totilas’ inbreeding and linebreeding to the 8th generation



Name *-* Inbreeding/Linebreeding Status *-* Crosses *-* Blood %
IBIKUS *-* 5s x 3s *-* 2 *-* 15.63%
FARN *-* 4D x 5d *-* 2 *-* 9.38%
IMPULS *-* 8s x 7s x 6s x 5s *-* 4 *-* 5.86%
ALTAN *-* 7s x 5S x 6d *-* 3 *-* 5.47%
DAMPFRO *-* 9s x 9S x 9S x 9S x 9S x 8S x 8S x 7S x 7s x 8S x 8S x 9S x 8d x 9D x 8D *-* 15 *-* 5.27%
PYTHAGORAS *-* 8S x 9S x 8s x 8S x 7S x 6s x 7S x 9S x 8D *-* 9 *-* 5.08%
TOTILAS *-* 8s x 6s x 6s x 7D *-* 4 *-* 4.30%
KOMET *-* 7S x 7S x 6S *-* 3 *-* 3.13%
CAMILLUS *-* 6D x 6d *-* 2 *-* 3.13%
PINDAR *-* 7s x 8S x 6S *-* 3 *-* 2.73%
HERBSTZEIT *-* 8s x 6s x 7s *-* 3 *-* 2.73%
MAHARADSCHA *-* 7S x 6s *-* 2 *-* 2.34%
MORGENSTER *-* 7D x 6D *-* 2 *-* 2.34%
CAMBINUS *-* 7d x 7D x 7D *-* 3 *-* 2.34%
LORETTO *-* 8D x 6d x 9D *-* 3 *-* 2.15%
PERSERFUERST *-* 9s x 9s x 7s x 7s *-* 4 *-* 1.95%
KASSANDRA *-* 8s x 6s *-* 2 *-* 1.95%
HEROLD *-* 7S x 9S x 9s x 7d *-* 4 *-* 1.95%
BUSSARD *-* 9s x 7s x 8s x 8d *-* 4 *-* 1.76%
PARSIVAL *-* 9S x 7S x 9s x 9s x 8D *-* 5 *-* 1.76%
GODIN2 *-* 8d x 9D x 9D x 7d *-* 4 *-* 1.56%
FAMULUS *-* 8S x 8s x 7S *-* 3 *-* 1.56%
MARKE5 *-* 8S x 9s x 7S *-* 3 *-* 1.37%
HYPERION *-* 9S x 8S x 7D *-* 3 *-* 1.37%
POSEIDON *-* 9S x 9S x 9s x 9S x 8S *-* 5 *-* 1.17%
BUCHAN *-* 9D x 7d *-* 2 *-* 0.98%
PIROL *-* 9s x 8s x 8D *-* 3 *-* 0.98%
MEISTERSCHUSS *-* 8D x 8d x 9D *-* 3 *-* 0.98%
FIRST3 *-* 9d x 9D x 9d x 8d *-* 4 *-* 0.98%
PARADOX *-* 9s x 8s x 8d *-* 3 *-* 0.98%
FAVORIT *-* 8D x 9D x 9d x 9D *-* 4 *-* 0.98%
LICHTENSTEIN *-* 8s x 9s x 9d *-* 3 *-* 0.78%
HIRNFASER *-* 8s x 9s x 9d *-* 3 *-* 0.78%
ABENDSTERN2 *-* 8s x 8s *-* 2 *-* 0.78%
TELLO5 *-* 8D x 9D *-* 2 *-* 0.59%
KLUGHEIT *-* 9S x 8s *-* 2 *-* 0.59%
HEINTZE *-* 8D x 9d *-* 2 *-* 0.59%


8 Generation Coefficient of Inbreeding: 0.2197265625%


To give you an idea a Father Daughter coefficient would be 25.0511169433594% and the blood influence of the father 75%

 

[scallywags]

Blimy where on earth did you find all that info ? : D

 

[magic104]

There are also the full brothers Double Eclipse & Double Trigger as mentioned pg 26 H&H last wk.

 

[KarynK]

Blimy where on earth did you find all that info ? : D

You'd really like to think you could get this info from the NED wouldn't you?????? For the money you have to pay, but for a few dollars All Breeds Pedigree will do it all for you!!!!

It's under reports, there are load of good ones on there including "Pictures" which will bring you back all horses in your pedigree that have pictures on file! if you subscribe then you can perform a Linebreeding report on any horse, better still you can perform a hypomating (a mating you think you might like to do) and then do a linebreeding report for that hypothetical foal to see how inbred it will be. There is also a female family report.

It give you a result in a table that you can copy and paste into word, but I'm not clever enough to get a table on here, totally confused with this newfangled forum thingy!

The only thing you need to check is that some Moron who does not know how to use all breeds has changed any part of the horse's back pedigree to something its not sorry anger management has not worked!). Then just do the report. It's a really good but under used service that if we pay a bit will get even better (Unlike NED has - My 2 YO's are STILL not on there!!!!!).

Prices start from $9.99 for a months subscription, I use it a lot so I usually buy 6 mths or a year's membership at a time.

 

[Bearskin]

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WTF? Inbreeding perhaps?

 

[Bearskin]

Ratina Z was famously bred to her full brother, Rebel I Z, producing the stallion Rex Z http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=REX+Z&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Does anyone know how the descendants of this family are turning out?

 

[Bearskin]

Also interesting to note that Rex Z is taller than all his ancestors that have their heights listed on the above link. At least 5cm taller than all of his great great grandparents. Is this due to improved management/feeding methods or a combined gene from an ancestor?

 

[KarynK]

Also interesting to note that Rex Z is taller than all his ancestors that have their heights listed on the above link. At least 5cm taller than all of his great great grandparents. Is this due to improved management/feeding methods or a combined gene from an ancestor?

Height is a very difficult one to judge as environmentals before and after the birth play a significant role in mature adult height. Those compromised in the womb will never reach their predicted adult height, the much missed Equine Fertility Unit had a 13.2hh TB stallion that they used as he was easy to handle.

He was out of a donated old mare with fertility problems following a difficult birth. She had been damaged in this birth and as horses never renew their womb lining like humans and the whole surface contributes to the foals nutrition he was starved at a vital development stage and never gained his true adult height, however when used in experiments his foals from TB mares reached the heigh he should have! This work was repeated in an experiment with two identical twins implanted in a large mare and a pony mare. The Pony twin never regained the height advantage seen at birth in its horse twin.

Equally an embryo from a USA cutting horse stallion (a little cutting horse, probably under 14hh) was placed in a big mare and produced an around 16hh horse - No use whatsoever for cutting unless you are cutting 16hh cattle! I suspect if you put a Shetland embryo in a shire mare the result would be a much bigger Shetland! I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND reversing that experiment before someone says anything!!!!!

So you can see that genes play a bit part in adult height!

And what was that post, must admit it makes a little less sense than inbreeding coefficients! Which works out at Coefficient of Inbreeding: 25.6813049316406% for that mating above (too close for me you would def want to breed an outcross mare to that stallion!)

 

[Truly]

I don't like to see line breeding closer than 4th generation and personally prefer to out cross (same breed though)
You sometimes see TB stallions advertised as free of Sadlers Wells blood or Northern Dancer..there are still some people that don't want them both sides of the pedigree.

I definitely don't agree with inbreeding! ...you've only got to look at what many Quarter Horse and Arab breeders have done to the breeds! ...it's not all breeders but some have made those beautiful horses into freaks!
They've made some QH's (Halter bred) look like beef cattle that could never be ridden let alone herd cattle.
And Arabs that look like they could break let alone cross the desert.

That's not the bad bit!..the poor bu***rs suffer from HYPP and other genetic disorders.

Rant over lol

I don't know much about inbreeding/linebreeding with warmbloods but I think research to what it's done to other breeds may influence people to make the best decisions who they cover their mare with.

 

[levantosh]

What about Diamond Hit being bred to a Sandro Hit mare to produce a stallion (Decamerone) at stud. Also Royal Hit being bred to his half sister (Loreana) and the stallion (Royal Schufro) is now at stud...

 

[KarynK]

There is a lot of confusion over the terms inbreeding and line breeding especially over the other side of the pond and many deliberately undertake Father Daughter matings to prove that their Stallion has good genes, the theory being that breeding that close will show any weaknesses &#8211; too right it will! But instead of gelding or spaying the result of the experiment many are bred on from! This has now been termed Linebreeding, sounds an awful lot better doesn&#8217;t it!

TB&#8217;s have always termed inbreeding as crosses in the 3rd to 5th generation (I think these boundaries are very sensible) and Linebreeding is ancestors in common from the 6th gen back. Realistically any breed will have ancestors in common, it&#8217;s how you fix type in a breed, once you close a breeds books unless you cross then you will not get a breed type just a mix of very different types. Chronically so in breeds descending from a couple of stallions like the Morgan, Colorado Ranger Breds and early QH Appaloosa and Paint breeding when the breeds were formed-reformed. So if you look back within a breed you will see commonality, especially the TB you have instances like Galopin and his son St Simon who were used a lot and are credited with giving the modern TB its shape and diluting the Arab influence.


Trouble is Northern Dancer is so prolific when inbred upon, which spread his influence further than any other modern sire, more so as he worked so well with a lot of other North American families and sire lines. Saddlers Wells is similar. But the pure performance influence of TB&#8217;s at that level drives the process and it has been very successful but the result was a narrower gene pool. They must have a lot of dominant traits linked to performance!

Usually TB&#8217;s stick to 4th Gen, but the likes of Big Brown prove that at 3x3 Northern Dancer has still not reached the limit of his power! The challenge with Big Brown will be does one more x of Northern Dancer bring on inbreeding depression and if so how do you find a lot of Northern Dancer free mares to outcross him too!!!

I&#8217;m not very familiar with warmblood lines but I don&#8217;t think that Totilas&#8217; inbreeding/linebreeding is an accident, give me some names and lets have a little dig around!!!

I must say that I am a cautious fan of inbreeding and have used it, 3x5, yes it can be risky if you are not very careful and don&#8217;t do your homework, but apart from the pitfalls it also has a lot of benefits including helping a stallion stamp his stock and developing a recognisable type or breed. Whilst inbreeding promotes recessives (we probably wouldn&#8217;t have chestnuts without it if they came from a single mutation), you always have to consider that there are good and bad ones!

But to be fair inbreeding is not responsible for spreading dominants like HYPP. Single source dominant mutations are not spread solely by in or line breeding like recessives, since only one copy is needed to spread the mutation. NB, the horses in your pictures (except of course the chestnut) are all the very visible result of a dominant mutation from way back, but ones that survived! What it does do I suppose is give a breed / type more dominant traits to mutate from!

Yes Impressive was inbred 3x4x5 on TB Three Bars, but judging from Three Bars own performance record and that of his offspring he was not the source of the mutation.

HYPP is a mutation of a wild dominant gene that in its ordinary form is normal and has no effect. It probably was stumbled upon in the search for the excessive musculature, more at home on a beef cow. The Mutation was spread through extensive use of Impressive but the mitigation was that this mutation can have no visible effect at all on a horse until well into middle age in it&#8217;s Heterozygous form (which Impressive was) . Sadly in those days the problem was not discovered for some considerable time, by which time it was too late. (100,000 + QH&#8217;s directly descend from him and many more paints, Appaloosas etc including one of my mares (she is HYPP N/N (clear)) and only has him once in her lines. Of course in nature it would probably have been at least eradicated by now!

To their credit that AQHA have been open about this and are addressing the problem through genetic testing and registration rules.

Totally agree with you on the lead and feeds and the Arabs that have difficulty breathing, some idiots do get carried away don&#8217;t they!! The bulky lead and feeds do occasionally produce a performer to the right mating but most are never even ridden, their purpose if you like are to stand still and square and behave impeccably and if you look at it that way they do that job well ironically!!! Trouble is it always takes breed politics so long to come up with the right solution, at least Dogs have the Kennel Club who have now banned close mating in dogs, though this will upset those in the process of creating weird and wonderful new breeds won&#8217;t it!!!

Link to HYPP explanation for those wanting to know more http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php

 

[KarynK]

A quick illustration of linebreeding TB MEDAGLIA D'ORO sire of Rachel Alexander is a total outcross in he 1st five gens, yet from the 6th to the 9th he is linebred on 72 individuals! His coefficient is .99
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/medaglia+doro

Yet Totilas who is mildy inbred 3x5 and 4x5 has a coeficient of .21, he is less linebred.