How common is a point and shoot jumping horse?

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deoni12

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Was just wondering recently how common a horse is that you can just aim him and the jump and know he will jump if able to?

The reason I ask is I started jumping on my 1st horse that is the least helpful horse ever, he would stop and run out etc with me, but not with more experienced riders. I now have an amazing horse that even though very fast, has so far jumped everything (only up to 85, nothing huge) except 2 fences in a lesson where I messed up massively on lines etc. I'm wondering how common it would be to find another like her or did I just get lucky? :)
 
I personally think are quite a few out there, my retired TB was one, my ID before was and my current one most certainly is. Of course I could just be extremely lucky! :)
 
Up to 1m, even 1.10 not that uncommon, given the horse is healthy, decently produced etc Below that, very common (given the above conditions) above that, much less common. More reasonably sound horses that have had decent experience will leave the ground the jump is well within their scope. It's when you get towards the margins that the rider has to be more accurate. Also, if a horse has never been pushed to the point of failing, it will be more forgiving.

The thing is, horses are naturally compliant and generous. I know many people will argue but, given their size and strength, we wouldn't be able to get them to do anything if they weren't basically okay with it. I'd imagine your first horse had a reason for the way he behaved - poor training, bad experiences etc - and obviously horses have greater or lesser aptitude so some need more help and encouragement.
 
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I think it depends a lot on what you're trying to jump, relative to your and your horse's experience! You may well get one that will point and shoot over small, simple fences that are well within its capability range. A decent rider may also consider a horse to be point and shoot, because they can just point it and shoot it! But…. I guess if either the rider or the horse is trying to tackle fences that are out of their comfort zones, then a horse that was point and shoot in the examples I've just described may well cease to be point and shoot! Then you also have to be careful to take things steady, so that they don't stop being point and shoot, which they may if over faced too many times! I've had three point and shoots out of four, so on that basis, I'd say they're easy to find!
 
TarrSteps said:
Up to 1m, even 1.10 not that uncommon, given the horse is healthy, decently produced etc Below that, very common (given the above conditions) above that, much less common. More reasonably sound horses that have had decent experience will leave the ground the jump is well within their scope. It's when you get towards the margins that the rider has to be more accurate. Also, if a horse has never been pushed to the point of failing, it will be more forgiving.

The thing is, horses are naturally compliant and generous. I know many people will argue but, given their size and strength, we wouldn't be able to get them to do anything if they weren't basically okay with it. I'd imagine your first horse had a reason for the way he behaved, it just wasn't one you knew about
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Yeah true, I still have him. He is ungenuine in other ways tbh too, has always been nappy for example.
 
HotToTrot said:
I think it depends a lot on what you're trying to jump, relative to your and your horse's experience! You may well get one that will point and shoot over small, simple fences that are well within its capability range. A decent rider may also consider a horse to be point and shoot, because they can just point it and shoot it! But…. I guess if either the rider or the horse is trying to tackle fences that are out of their comfort zones, then a horse that was point and shoot in the examples I've just described may well cease to be point and shoot! Then you also have to be careful to take things steady, so that they don't stop being point and shoot, which they may if over faced too many times! I've had three point and shoots out of four, so on that basis, I'd say they're easy to find!
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True! So tricky, how do you know how not to overface them and what they are capable of? My horse is only 6 but got her from a show jumping home so she already had been out there up to 95. Is it best to get an experienced rider to jump them first if you decide to go up a height? :)
 
Ah…. Well. You need to find the balance between pushing yourself so you make progress, and taking it steady so you maintain confidence! If the level you're at feels easy, then go up a level. In technicality, or height. No, I wouldn't get an experienced rider to jump mine first. I don't think it works like that. An experienced rider can't teach your horse to jump 10 cm higher, meaning that you can then get on and push the buttons, to make it jump 10 cm higher. However, I suppose it may give you confidence, seeing your horse do it first, and that's valuable. I'd do it in a lesson, so you've got someone to encourage and guide.
 
We've had three! Totally by accident, I don't think with the pony we even jumped him/saw him jumped before buying him.

Our current baby is brave so long as you set him up properly - I agree with TarrSteps that they are basically forgiving, and it's only if something goes wrong that you then have issues. My tb you can't get within about ten metres of a coloured pole :P But he undoubtably had some bad experiences.

I think if you're wanting something that will take you round in a confidence-giving manner, it's just about making sure you build up carefully, and stick to what they (and you!) are physically comfortable with. If she is athletic, brave and sound, 1.10 wouldn't be an unrealistic end-goal, but it's more about what you feel comfortable with. You could always ask your instructor. And take care to build it up gradually. You may have to sacrifice speed in the jump off, for example, until you can trust her to jump even from a short line or imperfect stride. Remember courses tend to get more complex as you go up the levels, so it's not just about height :)
 
Well of the three 'main' horses I've had over the years one was absolutely point him at it then he's going over it, you've just got to stay on top. The second stopped at absolutely everything, from about 10 foot away, however with patience and time he got over his fear and I trusted him absolutely to jump. The third is very hit and miss, and a little un-genuine, everything has to be right.
 
I've got one who's an absolute machine to jump, a racehorse who when you say jump, he says how high. He doesn't seem know how to say no, will try and jump from any spot even if it means over the wings on one occasion! I've only had him up to 1.35 but he lines up anything that looks remotely jump able and you do need to watch out hacking as he will lock onto 5 bar gates.You still need to ride him, sit soft but just let him get on with it, and don't argue as he's quite a sensitive horse who needs riding off your seat and not hands and heels. Deffinatley makes a change from riding green babies who wobble along before they learn to trust what you set them at and in the past I had one heck of a dirty stopper who would actually take off the jump the fence then slam the front end down- does nothing for your confidence when you knew on a good day he'd easily pop anything, certainly made me learn to sit tight. Very fortunate to ride an event mare who was honest to anything up to 1.15 but anything bigger she'd question herself out of her comfort zone ( had old injury which is probably why when the fences got bigger it triggered it ) but would pop round in her comfort zone all day long- very genuine.
 
HotToTrot said:
Ah…. Well. You need to find the balance between pushing yourself so you make progress, and taking it steady so you maintain confidence! If the level you're at feels easy, then go up a level. In technicality, or height. No, I wouldn't get an experienced rider to jump mine first. I don't think it works like that. An experienced rider can't teach your horse to jump 10 cm higher, meaning that you can then get on and push the buttons, to make it jump 10 cm higher. However, I suppose it may give you confidence, seeing your horse do it first, and that's valuable. I'd do it in a lesson, so you've got someone to encourage and guide.
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I wouldn't underestimate that second bit. I've quite often jumped horses up a class or in situations where they have struggled if the regular rider is feeling unsure. Once they see they horse does it easily they feel more prepared to insist, especially if it's combined with instruction and getting on the horse again that day or soon after and jumping the same sort of course. I jumped a horse recently that always had a stop or two out and the rider was starting to accept it. When she saw that it didn't have to happen and, more importantly, how to avoid it happening, she was good to go and hasn't had a stop since.

It shouldn't be necessary in most cases but if there has been a problem it can be very useful for both horse and rider.
 
So..what do folks reckon.....is there anything you can do with a youngster to foster the 'point and shoot ability'? Does loose jumping help...or is it just an innate ability?
 
My now retired ISH was a point and shoot. Anything, with any filler, anywhere, and any time, and from any angle, she'd jump it if you asked.

I was (and still am) a very nervous jumper. I know that most people say that horses know when you are nervous, and often then get nervous themselves, but not her. I would go in the ring literally white, shaking with nerves and holding back the tears some days, and yet she'd just get her eye on the fence and just take me over it.

Can u tell I miss her now she's been retired?!?! :p
 
catwithclaws said:
My now retired ISH was a point and shoot. Anything, with any filler, anywhere, and any time, and from any angle, she'd jump it if you asked.

I was (and still am) a very nervous jumper. I know that most people say that horses know when you are nervous, and often then get nervous themselves, but not her. I would go in the ring literally white, shaking with nerves and holding back the tears some days, and yet she'd just get her eye on the fence and just take me over it.

Can u tell I miss her now she's been retired?!?! :p
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Sounds like mine at the min, I'm so nervous some times and she just wizzes round. Terrified of ruining her.
 
HotToTrot said:
Ah…. Well. You need to find the balance between pushing yourself so you make progress, and taking it steady so you maintain confidence! If the level you're at feels easy, then go up a level. In technicality, or height. No, I wouldn't get an experienced rider to jump mine first. I don't think it works like that. An experienced rider can't teach your horse to jump 10 cm higher, meaning that you can then get on and push the buttons, to make it jump 10 cm higher. However, I suppose it may give you confidence, seeing your horse do it first, and that's valuable. I'd do it in a lesson, so you've got someone to encourage and guide.
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Thanks for everyones replies. :) I feel super confident on my horse, but I'm not planning on going any higher at the min as I'm very much a novice (started jumping this year!) and this pic shows how good she is and how much practice i need, bless her! :o
I just really scared of ruining her.
x0sms7.jpg
 
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My 5 yo is what I call too brave, looks at NOTHING and I mean nothing, never has. So we stripped it back for me and I've someone else jumping her at bigger heights at the moment. when I got in contact with the person that broke her as a 3 yo she said she's the.one youngster who never ever backed off anything, nothing phased her. Musing may be down to breeding, etc...

She's never ever looked at a filler, jumped coffins and ditches xc first time with no encouragement neede, hi vis and flapping jackets over arena fences not a bother, even if she hasn't seen something before she just takes it on.
 
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showpony said:
My 5 yo is what I call too brave, looks at NOTHING and I mean nothing, never has. So we stripped it back for me and I've someone else jumping her at bigger heights at the moment. when I got in contact with the person that broke her as a 3 yo she said she's the.one youngster who never ever backed off anything, nothing phased her. Musing may be down to breeding, etc...

She's never ever looked at a filler, jumped coffins and ditches xc first time with no encouragement neede, hi vis and flapping jackets over arena fences not a bother, even if she hasn't seen something before she just takes it on.
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Aw, sounds like mine so far, touch wood!! Only scared of cows! :p Won her first XC with her old owner at 4 I am just wimpy to try it!!
 
As others have said, up to a level they are fairly common. What is harder is finding a horse or pony to jump bigger tracks, proportionately for their height, with a novice or improving rider. Add in the need to be careful - a challenge as horses who don't like to touch fences will be more prone to stopping when wrong at a fence - and quick enough to be placed, and these horses and ponies especially become hens teeth who command a high value.
 
My 5YO will jump anything, even though:

Firstly- I can't see a stride for love nor money, I just hope for the best really.
Secondly- She's only ever jumped a handful of times in her life.
Thirdly- She wasn't even built to jump (Andalusian)
Fourthly- She doesn't really know what she's doing due to her age/experience.

So I am incredibly lucky, if anything she looks after me bless her!
 
All my horses have been genuine and brave to jump generally but could stop at something spooky if you didn't ride them. Especially the horse I had as a teenager who was a showjumping schoolmaster. He had a spooky edge which made him careful so you had to ride every fence with respect but he wasn't a stopper.
My late mare was super genuine as well to jump but even she stopped to have a look first time I hung a coat over a jump.
Current horse never stopped even as a youngun. jumped everything first time without a glance including water trays, plastic bags, coats, any filler, any xc jump. I think that's more unusual. Most youngsters stop to look at something at some point.
You can also repeatedly get him wrong and it never occurs to him to be bothered he'll jump from any place and is almost too good at sorting himself out sometimes! He has taken out a jump before rather than stop and that did't bother him either.
However he is very scopy and has never been faced with anything that is remotely testing his ability. He's also by nature non spooky and very confident personality wise so that helps.
 
All mine, bar one have been very genuine, easy point and shoot types. My grey was on a different level though, I trusted him to jump anything and he'd jump through XC combinations on the buckle end if I mucked up. There's not many like that IMO, he really did love to jump. If you teach them right in the first place, I don't see why a horse shouldn't be point and shoot but you do get ones who are just generally more genuine in nature than others so even when you mess up they jump. I think it's easier if you early on you mess up sometimes though so the horse learns to get himself out of situations (especially needed for XC), this is why I like bringing on my own horses because I do mess up quite a lot so I need to know my horse will help me out, I'd hate to ride a professionals horse who had to be put in the perfect spot to take off all the time!
 
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My current jumping horse is very much point and shoot - he is an absolute star.
He's scopey, careful and honest. He's a little bit too scopey, truth be told but I'll learn to stay on eventually. :o
 
All of mine have ended up point and shoot, I can't see a stride for toffee! One went to Intermediate BE and the rest to Novice except my current one who has just started 100.

However..... I think my idea of point and shoot is that I will have a balanced canter and steer a good line, and not do a panic ride at the last minute, and will stay in balance and allow the horse to jump.....

I have seen other people who think that point and shoot means kick like mad, get left behind and still expect the horse to go well (not suggesting that is anyone here!).

I think horses like consistency, and if you can get the canter sufficiently good then the jump is good, you are good and everyone keeps their confidence. My current horse has actually jumped quite big before with a pro, but his canter is poor so he needs placing still at bigger fences, so we are keeping low until the canter is good and then good jumps will follow.

I guess that is about knowing where you are at with your horse, in confidence as well as ability.
 
Well, my point and shoot horse (easily up to 1.20m and untried beyond that) who is also careful and quick - and very much the proverbial hen's tooth - is worth his weight in gold. So why am I in the process of giving him away? I know surviving a broken neck is very unusual, but that was nearly six years ago and he has proven himself over and over again since then, so why won't anybody remotely suitable even come and try him? He's a bargain and he's amazing - plus he's a tough, sound horse (he is not treated any differently from any other horse in relation to his neck).
 
To a certain height like tarrsteps said if they are correctly produced they should jump. I'm no expert by any means but I'm producing two at the moment and both will always jump. Its not luck it's correct training (overseen by my coach)
 
Teasel said:
So..what do folks reckon.....is there anything you can do with a youngster to foster the 'point and shoot ability'? Does loose jumping help...or is it just an innate ability?
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A couple rules that are easy to type and harder to practice. ;)

1. They never get to say no. It is simply not an option. The human part of this rule is to make sure that you never over face them or put them in a spot where they should have the right to say no. But if they stop at a jump, you deconstruct and walk them over it if needed. There is no other option for them. This has to become a 100% ingrained habit from the time you start them - no runouts ever permitted.

2. Canter, canter, canter. Set up a good canter, energetic and truly in front of your leg. No, not rushing or running away - just a genuine good canter.

3. Once you have #2 established, stay the heck out of the way. Don't micromanage, do not pick, do not chase. Your job is to pick the line - their job is to figure out how to jump it. Yes, this will on occasion result in silly mistakes when they are green and learning - but once they figure out that you trust them how to do it properly, you will be pleased to find out that they do a really good job.

Both of mine are true point and shoot - you line up, they jump. The gelding just won our barn christmas puissance competition at 1.30 cm - not bad for an event horse who rarely jumps above 3 feet. ;-) The baby (almost 6) did 4' with a bareback rider and took good care. Both rose to the challenge and trusted us when we asked them to go beyond their comfort zone. I'm very proud. :D
 
My friend said to me a few weeks ago that she had been at a lesson somewhere (she jumps much bigger than I do 1.35 ish so has proper showjumpers teach her unlike me ;) ) that her trainer had said that any normal sized horse doesn't really have to jump a 90cm fence. They are more just taking a big stride for most of them. They don't have to make much effort. So to me it stands to reason that loads of horses will jump that height with very little input. I thought about it and that kind of made sense. I mean, BH once trotted and walked round a 90 with me. They must have been small enough not to bother him as trot and pop was a totally acceptable option at that height. Obviously I wouldn't get him over 120 like that!

So I think probably most reasonably biddable horses will take a punt at most fences if they are small enough. Especially if they were taught that it wasn't optional not to jump when young.
 
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