How do people buy expensive foals?

[spacefaer]

About 30 years ago, my next door neighbour was the esteemed event horse breeder, Sam Barr of the Welton Stud. He grew his own hay, straw and feed. He had his own stallions and mares. The youngstock were housed in big barns in the winter, and all together in large fields in the summer. He also had an in -house rider so no extra backing costs. All the cost savings possible with economies of scale!

He reckoned it cost him £5k back then to get a young horse from conception to backed.

 

[blitznbobs]

I saw a foal a couple of weeks ago and was willing to rip their hand off at 5 x that but they decided to keep him - do i think they were mas? Nope i thought he was too cheap for what he was and would have been laughing if id got him at that price - i cant get. a good foal on the ground for 3,5k so it sounds blinking cheap to me

 

[Xmasha]

Depends what they’re bred for ??‍ My boys sire has an 7k stud fee but picked him up for 1k because he’s an ex race horse..he will excel in eventing by looks of him but peoples perception lowers his price so I don’t know tbh

The thing is you are comparing apples and pears.
OTTB have a long history of selling for peanuts. There’s a reason for that . If you look at the endless wanted ads you will see the comments .. No TBs .
Where as a foal intentionally bred for a specific market whether that be amateur or top flight competition will command ( and rightly so ) a premium .
I’ve bought a few weanlings over the past 2 decades as well as breeding a few. The ones I’ve retained cost more than £3.5k . The cheaper ones where cheaper for a reason .

 

[JBM]

The thing is you are comparing apples and pears.
OTTB have a long history of selling for peanuts. There’s a reason for that . If you look at the endless wanted ads you will see the comments .. No TBs .
Where as a foal intentionally bred for a specific market whether that be amateur or top flight competition will command ( and rightly so ) a premium .
I’ve bought a few weanlings over the past 2 decades as well as breeding a few. The ones I’ve retained cost more than £3.5k . The cheaper ones where cheaper for a reason .

what are the reasons?

 

[Xmasha]

what are the reasons?

Not a huge demand / can have injuries off track / vices / need proper retraining etc . Not everyone can ride them .

 

[JBM]

Not a huge demand / can have injuries off track / vices / need proper retraining etc . Not everyone can ride them .

Even no vice non injured retrained tbs go for cheaper so I don’t really get it

 

[Hallo2012]

Depends what they’re bred for ??‍ My boys sire has an 7k stud fee but picked him up for 1k because he’s an ex race horse..he will excel in eventing by looks of him but peoples perception lowers his price so I don’t know tbh

£7k is nothing for a racing stud fee, we had one by Frankel that cost us £1200 because he was no good as a racer (but excellent as a dressage horse). Ex racers are what they are to buy out of racing, their breeding has little impact because they failed at their first and intended job. They are all priced pretty much the same.

not so for the rest of the equine market. a £3.5k 5yo is unlikely to be well bred, well backed, or well produced in today's market.

I paid £4k for an un backed, barely shown, but well bred pony colt in his winter woolies........backed, sport pony licensed and qualified for regionals he is worth double that now a year later.

 

[Xmasha]

Even no vice non injured retrained tbs go for cheaper so I don’t really get it

I’m confused . As to why you don’t understand that there is and always has been a demand for well bred foals . What is so difficult to understand about that ?
Perhaps what you are saying is you personally wouldn’t buy a foal for £3.5k . That is your choice . But it really isnt difficult to understand

 

[JBM]

I’m confused . As to why you don’t understand that there is and always has been a demand for well bred foals . What is so difficult to understand about that ?
Perhaps what you are saying is you personally wouldn’t buy a foal for £3.5k . That is your choice . But it really isnt difficult to understand

It’s a difference of opinion but talking down to someone doesn’t make them suddenly understand

 

[Xmasha]

It’s a difference of opinion but talking down to someone doesn’t make them suddenly understand

I certainly wasn’t talking down to you . I was genuinely confused as to why you couldn’t understand. Your response to my post was that you didn’t/don’t get it . To me that says you don’t understand, not that you have a different opinion.
Everyone is allowed an opinion ?

 

[sbloom]

I think this is a really fair point - I also understand what it costs to breed and raise a foal, but as you say, what's happened that you can then buy a five year old for more or less the same money? I suppose the cost is front-loaded - once a foal is weaned (assuming nothing goes wrong) it can spend the next four years in a field with a load of other babies eating grass and being wormed and trimmed. Which is relatively low cost, compared to what's come before. But I don't think you're asking an unreasonable question at all, it's something I puzzle over quite regularly

I bought a coloured WB at weaning for £3750 17 years ago, and his breeder didn't make a lot on that. I then sold him, backed lightly, for £3500 aged 3; he was up at £4500 but he damaged himself in the stable at sales livery the day he was seen by the purchasers who used the on site vet for vetting, and failed on that leg at the vetting two weeks later. The failure would likely have been seen by anyone else interested in him. Even the sales livery cost me probably £800, without the costs of keeping him for 2.5 years.

 

[Jess1994PM]

Depends what you want them for and how much you are willing to pay ive just bought a pretty welsh x warmblood palamino 6 month old for £2000 with ok breeding and she should reach 15.2/3 as her dad was quite big and shes 13.2 at just turned 6 months old. i only wanted her for a forever friend, fun rides, and non competitve jumping/hunts so didnt need anything ready for HOYS and im happy with her - i know a few picked who picked up foals for under 1000 and they are cracking for what they wanted

 

[sport horse]

If you buy a Rolls Royce it will cost you a fortune and you may smash it up so you buy a bottom of the range car but you may smash that up too. It is choices but you are unlikely to buy a top bred dressage or show jumping foal for £3500

 

[Whoopit]

I bought a stunning bay 2yo for £6,000 in 2020. He has a beautiful chestnut full brother who as a foal sold for £9,500 in 2017.

Identical pedigree but completely different sales prices even as youngstock. Not enough time between the foals to decide the second foal isn’t quality enough based on performance results.

Which indeed begs the question - why the massive difference in price for pedigree identical horses. Is that sort of what you’re asking?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Most people dont want or need 'top' breeding. And a sound, sane stallion does not necessarily charge a high stud fee. Felix's dad is a Class 1 RID with a lovely temperament - stud fee £600.
Even Legrande is a lot less than people are quoting uprthread and he is quality.

I would class Felix as 'nicely bred' or 'well bred' for an amateur. But doubt I could ask for more than £3.5K for him at weaning. Unless I am totally underestimating what foals fetch. He's not being sold but just in theory that is what I assumed. But he is the kind of foal I was talking about: healthy, sound, nice breedng and a good start in life.

 

[TGM]

I bought a stunning bay 2yo for £6,000 in 2020. He has a beautiful chestnut full brother who as a foal sold for £9,500 in 2017.

Identical pedigree but completely different sales prices even as youngstock. Not enough time between the foals to decide the second foal isn’t quality enough based on performance results.

Which indeed begs the question - why the massive difference in price for pedigree identical horses. Is that sort of what you’re asking?

Although they have the same pedigree, there are bound to be differences in conformation, movement etc. Sometimes it might even be down to luck, it may be the buyer of the chestnut horse was specifically looking for that breeding and snapped the foal up for that price as it was exactly what they wanted. With the bay horse, there may not have been the right buyer for him looking for something just like him when he was on the market as a foal. Generally, you find two year olds cost less than either foals or three year olds.

I'm presumably it was the same breeder for each horse, but if not the status of the breeder can make a difference to price, you would expect a horse marketed by one of the well-known studs to attract a higher price than the same horse bred by Joe Bloggs down the road. Partly because the well-known studs probably market them better, partly because of the performance records of the other horses from that stud, and partly because buyers tend to assume the well-known studs have better breeding knowledge and know which breeding lines go together best. And of course, there is the boasting rights as well, some people might love to brag that they have just bought a foal from X Stud!

 

[Bellaboo18]

Even no vice non injured retrained tbs go for cheaper so I don’t really get it

I've had exracers but I wouldn't have another now. I'm currently in the market for another to add to my herd but i'm actively avoiding exracers. My reason being, I'm looking for longevity. Racehorses are bred to do a job, the majority aren't successful. Hopefully they then go on to do another job but that's not the job they were bred for however good their breeding. Flat racers especially are started too young (imo) and as a consequence far more likely to have performance/lameness issues at some point in their life.

 

[SO1]

With a foal breed for racing you are paying for potential. If it does not meet that potential then you are buying a failed race horse which has less value outside of racing.

A lot of expensive well bred foals destined to be top competion horses will not make their potential and then the price drops. Those that do become at the top of their game then because out of price range for most people.

People buy an expensive foal often because they cannot afford to buy the top competition horse they want and the only way to get that sort of horse is to buy the foal and hope it reaches its potential.

 

[Bobthecob15]

I paid £4500 for a foal in 1998! ? Really well bred dressage lines though. If you have your own place and can afford to have them for 4yrs before you want to work them then I think that's a fair investment.

One of Glamourdales fillies sold at auction for €71,000 last month....just saying ?

 

[honetpot]

I buy cheap well-bred foals, not usually from the breeder, but when reality strikes when they get to about ten months and are getting stroppy, usually because they are kept in, over handled and not left to be young horses. Its cheaper than breeding them, the only one I bred cost £1500, not including the mares, keep ten years ago to get on the floor, so £3,500 is not expensive. The only time I get worried is when certain breeders line breed, so there are getting grandsires covering mares, and some of the mares are not sound in temperament.
A foal, if you buy wisely will increase in value, you may have a nice new shiny car, but in four years you still have a loan, its perhaps not as shiny and worth a lot less than you paid for it. I would rather, have a foal, I have never lost money on a foal, but the pleasure is for me is watching it change and grow.

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

Even no vice non injured retrained tbs go for cheaper so I don’t really get it

Problem is how do people know it is a no vice non injured retrained tb… I bought one of those in 2014 for £2k… only to find out retrained meant 3 months of training, and non injured meant non injured at the time… he is now 14 and retired due to arthritis. Sadly ex racers are often ran into the ground far too early and in general have issues or are hot headed in nature (that’s what makes them good at racing). The ones that truly are no vices non injured and retrained fully are few and far between from my experience. Many people just don’t want to take the risk.

 

[tda]

Here's my 2pence worth.
I breed a rare breed pony, top of the list at the RBST, suitable for most adults and older children to ride.
In my second year of breeding 2009 we had two foals, someone rang about the filly and said i only have £500 budget, my dad said we can't keep them all so she was sold.
A lady I knew purchased a warmblood colt for £4000
Roll forward to 2017, another "we only have £500" so off the foal went there were others in between Colts and fillies, if we didn't love the breed it honestly is not worth doing it.
We had our own stallion and land
Roll onto last year, I sold a colt for £1500, pretty happy.
Dales Pony foals are now fetching £2000-3000 and it's about time
I know you can always pick something up cheap, I've done it myself, but honestly sometimes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
I'll get my coat......

 

[Caol Ila]

I sold my BOGOF for £2500 at mate’s rates. Really well bred, well handled PRE weanlings were going between 4 and 5k. Unknown or less well bred ones were like 3 to 3500. I would have tried that, had he been on the open market. He’s turning into a stunning horse, so his owner may have lucked out. I hope so!!

 

[blitznbobs]

I bought a stunning bay 2yo for £6,000 in 2020. He has a beautiful chestnut full brother who as a foal sold for £9,500 in 2017.

Identical pedigree but completely different sales prices even as youngstock. Not enough time between the foals to decide the second foal isn’t quality enough based on performance results.

Which indeed begs the question - why the massive difference in price for pedigree identical horses. Is that sort of what you’re asking?

sometimes foals hit the ground and ooze quality , in the way they move, in their attitude, in their stamp - sometimes they do not - two foals with exactly the same parentage can be as different as any two other siblings. When you buy a foal you are nt just buying breeding in fact mostly you are buying the horse in front of you… some are poor, some are average and some have a little bit of magic about them

 

[Palindrome]

sometimes foals hit the ground and ooze quality , in the way they move, in their attitude, in their stamp - sometimes they do not - two foals with exactly the same parentage can be as different as any two other siblings. When you buy a foal you are nt just buying breeding in fact mostly you are buying the horse in front of you… some are poor, some are average and some have a little bit of magic about them

Yes, and temperament too, some foals are easy from day one.

But my experience of ugly ducklings foals/yearlings is that they are very different as 3 years old. I look at the angles, not the proportions as those will change. Even things like toeing out can change over time as the horse becomes wider. So far I am really pleased with my little bargain youngsters, one is a grand-daughter of Ferro and the other of Gribaldi, bought respectively for 3500 pounds as a 8 month old and 4400 euros (with 10% VAT so breeder got 4000 euros) as a 1.5 years old. They have way more talent that I can ever ride.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

At least shetland foal prices have picked up in the last few years for the most part. Some were still selling for 100gns at Lerwick the other day. That barely covers the cost of registering and microchipping the let alone the sales entry fees etc.

Horses are only as much as people are willing to pay for them. What are good bloodlines for one person won't be for another.

 

[LEC]

I think you would struggle to find many good 5 year olds for 3.5k or less though. I don't think a good foal is expensive at 3.5k

Show me where they are! I would love a decent 5yo for that kind of money. Tbh the 3yo I look at are £10k.

 

[LEC]

I have a 5yo ex racer but I paid a lot more than £3500 for him out of racing. I want a very specific type and background for them to go eventing. They have to be a certain shape, have certain breeding and move a certain way. So a narrow field of horses. Usually the ones I like are £££. He fitted my criteria, though I would like him 3 inches bigger! I am not interested in competing at 80cm so they are bought to go up the levels. I also have a purpose bred for me sporthorse foal. It’s cost me £3k I reckon already out of my mare and foal isn’t 6 months yet.
I could, if I wasn’t that bothered about competing at a decent level find a lot cheaper horses so it depends what your end use is.

 

[Whoopit]

Just an FYI on my post - I didn’t need educating; it was an example response to the OP. Two horses with identical pedigree but miles apart on cost - it was to give her something else to go on in terms of interpretation of youngstock value.

 

[Caol Ila]

My foal's mum was £3500 as a two-year old, which seemed insanely cheap for a relatively well-bred PRE of that age. Breeder wasn't that switched on to horse prices, and the filly was very, very unhandled.